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On the Eddie Guerrero front: They were already planning on putting the belt on him again by all accounts. He supposed to get the big Mania push that coming year (i.e. winning the Rumble). His death threw everything off and lead to Booking Rey to win and then the Rey's disastrous world title run.

 

James

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What if David Von Erich hadn't died and then won the NWA Title at The Parade of champions as originally planned?

Does he get a meaningful run or does he get the same 18 day run that Kerry did? Does World Class not break away from the NWA? Does David run World Class as planned and avoid working with Jerry Jarrett/Jerry Lawler and Verne Gagne?

 

James

I think things still end up the same with WCCW. Flair/Crockett would have gotten the belt back at some point, reduced bookings of the champion to other territories, then would have went on to challenge Vince nationally again. WCCW still breaks away because the NWA dies. WCCW still dies because the office was only consisting of a few people that didn't want to challenge the world and because the VE's were druggies that were unreliable.

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I don't think WCCW dies as fast though. I think WCW cuts ties to the NWA faster leading to Dallas becoming the lead office.

 

James

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What if DAvif Von Erich hadn't died and then won the NWA Title at The Parade of champions as originally planned?

Does he get a meaningful run or does he get the same 18 day run that Kerry did? Does World Class not break away from the NWA? Does DAvid run World Class as planned and avoid working with Jerry Jarrett/Jerry Lawler and Verne Gagne?

 

James

 

Also, does Mike get pushed so hard?  Does Mike still kill himself?  What about Chris?  With David around, can he help keep Kerry under control, so no motorcycle accident?  That could really change things.

 

Yes, Mike still gets the super push because he was a VE and they all got it minus Chris. Yes, Mike still probably kills himself since he was a druggie and the Toxic Shock Syndrome was a big factor as well. Kerry was his own biggest enemy and if he didn't kill himself, would have ended up in jail for the long term anyway like he was scheduled to.

 

The VE's can blame David's death all they want and while I'm sure it played a factor, it is just a convenient excuse for parental abuse, drug problems/too fast too soon stardom and never growing up.

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I don't think WCCW dies as fast though. I think WCW cuts ties to the NWA faster leading to Dallas becoming the lead office.

 

James

Dallas couldn't of. They only had a few people working the office, Fritz was cheap, had trust issues and ended up trusting the wrong people which led to his crew getting poached, Gino still would have died and The VE's/Freebirds feud got run dry leaving them with no other programs besides the usual stale VE superpush.

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What if Antonio Inoki hadn't lost influence and been forced out of New Japan in the mid-00's?  The company was a mess financially and in-ring by the time they rid themselves of Inoki?

 

What if Hogan had never signed with WCW?  (a couple better in-ring years, but the company dies sooner?)

 

What if Kobashi ends his epic NOAH title run by dropping the belt to Jun Akiyama as originally planned?  Akiyama probably could have carried the company.  Rikio could not, and his title run was the start of a long downward spiral for NOAH?

 

What if ROH makes it to December 2008 with Gabe still involved, and Punk, Joe, Danielson, etc. still working primarily for the company?

 

What if Sting signs with the WWF in the early 90's and gets the same type of push that WCW gave him?

 

What if Sting signs with WWE some time around 1998-2001?

 

What if Turner never sells?  Or, better yet?  Turner sells to Time Warner and instead of deciding they don't want wrestling, Time Warner decides to sweep out the Bischoff/Russo management structure and brings in people to both book the company and make it cost effective?

 

1) I don't even wanna think of it because we have the most awesome New Japan era nowadays :)

 

2) You nailed it. Basically, Hogan's name value brought WCW money, even though stuffing instead of potatoes in-ring sucked shit for a bit until Bischoff brought in the cruiserweights.

 

3) Could he? Akiyama rules don't get me wrong, but he's just as long in the tooth as Kobashi

 

4) ROH fans would turn against the company for pushing the same old guys, and Adam Cole and Elgin would be midcard enhancement talent.

 

5) Remember that thread I made about WWE turning popular heels into intolerable babyfaces? He would've fallen into that category had he signed with the WWF.

 

6) I don't know about all those other years, but it makes your head explode when you think about how much coin WWE could've made had he signed with them in 2001. And the dream matches!!!

 

7) TNA would never have been a thought

 

1 - Yukes saved NJPW and it would be dead without them. Inoki would likely be doing a crappy IGF/NJPW hybrid.

 

2 - WCW probably stays alive with no Hogan. They wouldn't have had such success so the fall wouldn't have been as bad. Bischoff was the real issue though.

 

3 - Akiyama winning the belt wouldn't have meant much long term. They tried to get him over as Ace from the beginning and it didn't light the world on fire. Kobashi might have had a little bit longer of a shelf life if he took off though.

 

4 - ROH still wouldn't be much further along than they are today. Those guys would have gotten stale and there's only so much you can do in the indies. Plus, it's ROH and they are running a circus backstage.

 

5 - Sting would have been a star in the WWF but business was down in the early 90's so he wouldn't have hit Hogan levels.

 

6 - Austin and Rock would have still been pushed over him and Sting would have already had his career peak. Can't see how a WWF move would have helped him. He also wasn't a WWF guy. Sting would have ended up a midcarder or been the face version of Kane.

 

7 - I think WCW would have stayed alive in some form without Ted selling and no Russo/Eric. I think they would be doing better than TNA does and would have double the fanbase TNA always has. They still would have been handily beat week in and week out by the WWF but they would have been making money and still running. As long as they have Turner's TV time, they survive.

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What if WrestleMania was not successful?  I assume whoever had the 6:05 timeslot would have been in control for a while.  Wrestling, if I'm correct, would still have been popular and mainstream, so it's fair to say there would have been a power vacuum for control.  Would Crockett still have been forced to sell to Turner?  He would have had access to Hulk and would have only had Verne to fight with but would that have been enough for him to succeed?  Let's say, JCP still has to sell.  WCW may have been the #1 promotion in the US until at least 2001 and beyond maybe.

Vince had already won the war by Wrestlemania. At worst, it would have still been successful as an MSG show because those shows still packed the house then. Yes he would lost a lot of money but he'd still have the usual Boston, MSG, Philly rotation to work with. He also had already poached the talent he needed and his competitors still wouldn't have known how to fight him. Crockett still would have been spending like mad with the pirvate jets and would have had to sell to Turner, keeping that history similar.

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There are probably an infinite number of "what ifs" that can be pondered:

What if:

Flair is killed in that plane crash?

 

The end result would have been the same for everything else. Flair wasn't a sellout draw, WCW still would have been #2 and would have had rougher down periods without him but still would have survived.

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What if DAvif Von Erich hadn't died and then won the NWA Title at The Parade of champions as originally planned?

Does he get a meaningful run or does he get the same 18 day run that Kerry did? Does World Class not break away from the NWA? Does DAvid run World Class as planned and avoid working with Jerry Jarrett/Jerry Lawler and Verne Gagne?

 

James

 

Also, does Mike get pushed so hard?  Does Mike still kill himself?  What about Chris?  With David around, can he help keep Kerry under control, so no motorcycle accident?  That could really change things.

 

Yes, Mike still gets the super push because he was a VE and they all got it minus Chris. Yes, Mike still probably kills himself since he was a druggie and the Toxic Shock Syndrome was a big factor as well. Kerry was his own biggest enemy and if he didn't kill himself, would have ended up in jail for the long term anyway like he was scheduled to.

 

The VE's can blame David's death all they want and while I'm sure it played a factor, it is just a convenient excuse for parental abuse, drug problems/too fast too soon stardom and never growing up.

 

 

This.  I think the old board had a "What if Eddie Gilbert hadn't died in Feb 1995" and a plausible scenario is that Gilbert dies 5 months later in a hotel room in Puerto Rico from the same cause.  Or he ods a week after that.  Or....    Gilbert was an addict with a destructive personality.  It's hard to imagine him getting clean and living another 20-30 years.  Sane with the Von Erichs, in my opinion.  The biggest threat to the brothers' health was themselves (well, maybe Fritz).

 

If David lives, I think it changes the timeline of events somewhat, but not the ultimate outcome.  KIerry sill spins out of control,Mike still does drugs and either kills himself or ods, etc.  I'm skeptical that David's death was simply a heart attack as the VE's claim (Fliar's claim that Brody destroyed the evidence sounds a little more likely),  If David did have a heart attack, I'd guess prior drug use had something to do with it (same with Gilbert).

 

The Von Erich's were a bad combination of parental pressure, success they weren't ready for, and immature, addictive personalities.  It's really difficult to think that turns out well simply because one or two events happen or don't happen.

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What if DAvif Von Erich hadn't died and then won the NWA Title at The Parade of champions as originally planned?

Does he get a meaningful run or does he get the same 18 day run that Kerry did? Does World Class not break away from the NWA? Does DAvid run World Class as planned and avoid working with Jerry Jarrett/Jerry Lawler and Verne Gagne?

 

James

 

Also, does Mike get pushed so hard?  Does Mike still kill himself?  What about Chris?  With David around, can he help keep Kerry under control, so no motorcycle accident?  That could really change things.

 

Yes, Mike still gets the super push because he was a VE and they all got it minus Chris. Yes, Mike still probably kills himself since he was a druggie and the Toxic Shock Syndrome was a big factor as well. Kerry was his own biggest enemy and if he didn't kill himself, would have ended up in jail for the long term anyway like he was scheduled to.

 

The VE's can blame David's death all they want and while I'm sure it played a factor, it is just a convenient excuse for parental abuse, drug problems/too fast too soon stardom and never growing up.

 

 

This.  I think the old board had a "What if Eddie Gilbert hadn't died in Feb 1995" and a plausible scenario is that Gilbert dies 5 months later in a hotel room in Puerto Rico from the same cause.  Or he ods a week after that.  Or....    Gilbert was an addict with a destructive personality.  It's hard to imagine him getting clean and living another 20-30 years.  Sane with the Von Erichs, in my opinion.  The biggest threat to the brothers' health was themselves (well, maybe Fritz).

 

If David lives, I think it changes the timeline of events somewhat, but not the ultimate outcome.  KIerry sill spins out of control,Mike still does drugs and either kills himself or ods, etc.  I'm skeptical that David's death was simply a heart attack as the VE's claim (Fliar's claim that Brody destroyed the evidence sounds a little more likely),  If David did have a heart attack, I'd guess prior drug use had something to do with it (same with Gilbert).

 

The Von Erich's were a bad combination of parental pressure, success they weren't ready for, and immature, addictive personalities.  It's really difficult to think that turns out well simply because one or two events happen or don't happen.

 

 

But it IS that timeline changing that makes the What If so questionable- simply because if David "originally" lives, then the question becomes: What ORDER do the VEs die in? If David originally lived, he probably would die- but probably wouldn't have died "FIRST" of the four (and since David was the most blue-chip star of them, that is important.) Even if you assume it becomes Mike/David/Chris/Kerry, then the whole VEs order goes differently since David was a blue-chip NWA prospect. Instead of "David Von Erich, star-crossed star", then he likely ties to a Magnum TA-style "he could have been THE person to put NWA back in the game if not for this happening" move.

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I think Pillman the bigger question is "what if he was never in the car accident?"

 

AFAIK, he had shaken his addictions before the crash, and it was the painkillers from his ankle being destroyed that dragged him back down to hell.

 

Plus, he could have come into ECW and then the Attitude Era capable of having fucking great matches, instead of spending most of that time not wrestling at all.

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I remember reading Shawn Michaels was supposed to go through the Barber Shop window and Jannetty getting the singles push...what if???

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What if Zahorian never gets charged, and as such there's not enough evidence to charge Vince?

 

Warrior and Bulldog stick around. Hogan never goes and embarrasses himself on Arsenio Hall, so he probably sticks around too. No need to do the WBF as a separate entity, so they don't lose money on that, and I'm sure most of these guys get moved in as monster heels. Does Luger ever come across, given he signed up for the WBF initially?

 

You probably never get Shawn and Bret's big singles push. Both probably end up in WCW as a result. Both their pushes brought about Owen and Nash, they probably flounder around elsewhere. Flair probably sticks around as he has guys he can work with.

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What was the deal with Hogan embarrassing himself on Arsenio Hall?

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"--  In 1991, Hogan left the entire industry out to dry when he lied on the Arsenio Hall Show about his steroid usage.  The company line had been "well, I used them when they were legal" (which was until the late 80's, I believe).  Hogan went back on an agreement with Vince McMahon to protect his image as well as his kids vitamins deal.  He said he used them a couple of times in the early 80's to recover from an injury.  Everyone knew he was lying.  The company's credibility was shot to shit thanks to Hulk.  The scandals that followed over the next ten months or so led to business dying and Hulk running away from the company for a year after WrestleMania VIII.  WWF had to continue on, and it was a nightmare of a time for the company and the fans who saw superstar after superstar vanish with no explanation.  It took the company the better part of four years to recover from a live events standpoint.  "

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So if Hogan just said, "I used them when they were legal", the company's credibility would have been fine and business wouldn't have died? And guys like Warrior and Davey Boy wouldn't have been pretty much forced off TV? I'm not sure I buy that fallout, but I didn't know about the Arsenio Hall stuff. Thanks!

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Wasn't the rumor that they were going to do Eddy/HBK at Mania 22 if he was still alive?

Also, we would have gotten more Kerwwwwwwinnnnnn White

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So if Hogan just said, "I used them when they were legal", the company's credibility would have been fine and business wouldn't have died? And guys like Warrior and Davey Boy wouldn't have been pretty much forced off TV? I'm not sure I buy that fallout, but I didn't know about the Arsenio Hall stuff. Thanks!

 

Not what I'm saying. Separate issue in that the fall out from the Arsenio Hall appearance, played a large part in him taking time off and pursue other ventures like Thunder In Paradise.

 

Had there not been a steroid scandal in the first place, no need for Hogan to make such comments and be forced to go into hiding. I think he still takes a break after Mania 8, and probably makes another attempt at Hollywood somewhere along the line, but I think he stays with the WWF rather than goes to WCW in the long run.

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I didn't mean to insinuate that you were saying that. My bad.

 

I just don't know that things would have turned out all that differently had the Arsenio Hall appearance gone better. I think that most of what happened would have happened anyway.

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AWA didn't have the exposure WWF had. WWF would have just rolled with Snuka or someone else.

But Snuka, or Savage, or Steamboat -- none of them could have been The Guy the way Hogan was. And without the WWF behind him, Hogan would never have amounted to the same thing either. Separately, neither Vince nor Hogan would have had the impact they had together.

 

 

What if, in the absence of Hogan, Vince turns to another tall well-built blonde with a patriotic gimmick, who also happens to be younger and more athletic than Hogan?

 

07.jpg

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What if Sting became the 3rd member of the NWO instead of Hogan?  Would the NWO even had existed or would Hogan eventually squash them within a few months.

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I love me some Barry Windham, but he was sort of painful to listen to in terms of cutting promos. He doesn't have the oversized personality that Hogan does. 

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While Barry was a big guy with talent, he didn't necessarily fit Vince's idea of the superhero bodybuilder to push to the top of the card.

 

James

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Barry was skinny fat before skinny fat was cool.

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