Octopus Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 Seeing @Dolfan in NYC reminds me of when my brothers were fighting and I see my dad appear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Dave Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 9 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said: ... You don't want to go down this route. Drop this now. I didn’t start this, but it’s your world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 Samoa Joe is pretty sweet. I wonder what he’s up to. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coletti Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 10 minutes ago, Octopus said: Samoa Joe is pretty sweet. I wonder what he’s up to. Twisted Metal is filming in Canada and I think they're either about to start, or have started so out favorite Joe of Somoa is likely being greasy and sweaty with a clown mask on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 11 minutes ago, Octopus said: Samoa Joe is pretty sweet. I wonder what he’s up to. I wonder if someone can get him to tell the story about Shinjiro Ohtani DDTing a trainee at a bowling alley again. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Dynamite Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Octopus said: John, what are your three favorite matches of all time and why do you think they’re done? i think doing Top Lists and star ratings and stuff like that exists to fill a need to quantify our enjoyment of pro wrestling. Like, we feel like we can't just like stuff or dislike stuff, we have to rank it and rate it with real, hard numbers so our opinions can feel like real, hard facts. More and more I'm starting to think that this is a fallacy, so I guess I'm doing this pretentious, let's-be-honest-judgemental thing where I'm not trying to rank or rate anything. It's starting to tie in to the way I think about Meltzerism and the Olympic Figure Skatingization of pro wrestling. The preferred form of pro wrestling in this post-post-kayfabe era is becoming this thing that's judged on Degree of Difficulty and Cleanliness of Execution and How Many Things Can Happen in a Set Amount of Time and I think that's appealing to the young male masses the same way Eddie Van Halen playing the most notes the fastest made him the young male's fave guitarist decades ago. "If I'm going to make my enjoyment of [entertainment thing] part of my identity, I want to quantifiably argue why it is The Best Thing." A very teenage boy way of thinking. Not to say Eddie can't play great licks or that Ospreay can't have great moments. But the things they do, it's talent show, a guy doing the fastest moves and the fastest flips is a lot less abstract then the guy doing the most "feeling". And mainstream entertainment is so, so Not Abstract. Everything is so literal now. Maybe it's because the stories are FAKE and the athleticism is REAL and the modern fan is too ashamed to prioritize the FAKE artistic over the REAL athletic, and that this is a deeper symptom of post-kayfabe than we realize. Still, it's all a way to make the intangible tangible. Turning English into Math and all that. I've been writing up wrestling matches in a waaay more casual space than this one and three best ones out of the thirty or so I've posted before are Chigusa / Dump - Hair vs. Hair (the first one, the immoral manipulation of the audience one, the better one), the CMLL Torneo Cibernetico (the one you think), and JYD & Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik & Volkoff (again, the first one). So those are the recent classics that have brought me the most joy, although I'm sure I could argue that 6/9/95 is better or whatever. The Hair Match is the peak of audience manipulation. I've never seen anyone do that to a crowd, ever. I don't know if it's possible, I don't think you can get a crowd like late-80's Japanese Schoolgirls who can't Google the word "kayfabe" on their phones anymore. It speaks to a deeply jealous part of my theater kid self. I would kill to have that kind of power over an audience. It's perverse. The Cibernetico speaks to my love of long-form buffets. I'm not a horror movie buff, but I am VERY much an anthology horror movie buff. It's probably my favorite format for any kind of film. One out of every ten major releases should be an anthology. An hour plus of a bunch of thematically connected dope things happening in parallel. Even if it's the obvious choice the Felino Cibernetico is the best example of it I've seen. Helps that the framing device is Santo vs. Casas. My Dream AEW Match is making an entire episode of Rampage a Cibernetico with every luchador and ex-CHIKARA guy they have. The Big Philly Tag Match is perfect broad-stroke babyface vs. heel, a perfect New York brawl, it's the best glimpse of JYD's potential as a top babyface in the Fed if he hadn't been as troubled as he was, I actually posted it pre-Mania as a study in how smart and loud Philly crowds have always been. Something's always happening and everybody cares, every kid has a sign, nobody's cheering the heels even though you can tell the crowd is far more educated than others of the time. It's just neat. Edited April 27 by John E. Dynamite 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 9 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said: I wonder if someone can get him to tell the story about Shinjiro Ohtani DDTing a trainee at a bowling alley again. Waaaaah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 3 minutes ago, Octopus said: Waaaaah? I vaguely recall him describing when he was out in Japan, how he went bowling with the rest of the Zero One crew, and Ohtani gave a trainee a DDT on one of the lanes. Or it could be a Mandela effect? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Dynamite Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 4 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said: I vaguely recall him describing when he was out in Japan, how he went bowling with the rest of the Zero One crew, and Ohtani gave a trainee a DDT on one of the lanes. Or it could be a Mandela effect? I think this was one of the tamer mentions in the Sleaze Thread?? Maybe it came out of the same Spanky(?)-in-Japan shoot interview that gave us the Wacky Dominatrix Story but left out the alleged pregnancy scare?? I can't believe I've retained this information. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said: I think this was one of the tamer mentions in the Sleaze Thread?? Maybe it came out of the same Spanky(?)-in-Japan shoot interview that gave us the Wacky Dominatrix Story but left out the alleged pregnancy scare?? I can't believe I've retained this information. And Tony Khan started the Sleaze Thread! FINISH THE STORY COMPLETE THE CIRCLE, TONY, IT IS YOUR DESTINY 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 That early Zero One roster was the most ragtag group of motherfuckers you could ever conjure up. PRIDE era Hirotaka Yokoi and Kintaro Kanemura. Same roster. I loved it. Bonus: 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 Just now, Elsalvajeloco said: That early Zero One roster was the most ragtag group of motherfuckers you could ever conjure up. PRIDE era Hirotaka Yokoi and Kintaro Kanemura. Same roster. The other day I was wondering if Shinsuke Z Yamagasa was still wrestling. He is not. I was sad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Dynamite Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: That early Zero One roster was the most ragtag group of motherfuckers you could ever conjure up. PRIDE era Hirotaka Yokoi and Kintaro Kanemura. Same roster. I loved it. This made me double check if Tengu Kaiser/KAMIKAZE is still wrestling on the weekends. He is. EDIT: whoa, that was not supposed to be a parallel post w/ Steph Edited April 27 by John E. Dynamite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordi the former AEW fan Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 (edited) 13 hours ago, Octopus said: Oh great muscular maple syrup Ronin Gordi! Protector of lands stretching from Kamloops, British Columbia to Nara, Nara. Selfie flexing, macha beer drinking, lover of the great Sport of Kings. YOU HAVE BEEN INVOKED. Is there a new modern wrestling company that has fulfilled your needs of professional wrestling? Any fun AEW matches recently stand out? Any fun non-AEW matches recently stand out? With this invocation, do I get three wishes? Oh OK. I thought I was being invoked to weigh in on some aspect of current AEW. (Sadly, in most cases my take is "I just don't care any more"). - Nope. - Nope - Nope - Nope. Definitely appreciate that you asked about "fun" matches. That's 100% my thing! I am honestly sick to death of darned near every wrestler constantly and self-consciously striving to work "great" matches. Could not possibly agree more with John E's excellent take on that subject above. The non-stop overkill and unnecessary risk taking has burned me right out. The last, camel's back breaking, straw was that ridiculous debacle of a "cage" match in Osaka. When Ospreay and company kept doing high risk moves on a bunch of exposed, uneven two by fours, something broke inside me. Haven't 100% been able to enjoy any pro wrestling since then. Don't want to leave it on that note, so: How about that run of singles matches Bryan has been on since December?!?! That whole Continental Classic run, putting Kingston over in the semi-final, Okada at WK, Nagata, HECHICERO, ZSJ in Osaka (the most beautiful professional wrestling, unfortunately followed up by the most stupid and ugly pro wrestling), Akiyama, Kingston again at Revolution, Shane Taylor, Shibata, Archer, Blue Panther in Arena Mexico (which I ain't seen yet), and Ospreay (which, I get why other people loved that, at least). Absurd. Insane. As great a run as any wrestler has ever had. And Eddie Kingston is still real, to me. And presumably Hayter is returning eventually. And I'm curious what Forbidden Door will bring, this year. Hopefully Jeff Cobb! And drinking with Cooger is still the best. Edited April 27 by Gordi the former AEW fan 3 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLowe Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 @Gordi the former AEW fan I don’t want to take him away from you in Japan but I dream of AEW getting Jeff Cobb and reviving United Empire with Ospreay and Aussie Open. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SovietShooter Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said: Maybe it's because the stories are FAKE and the athleticism is REAL and the modern fan is too ashamed to prioritize the FAKE artistic over the REAL athletic, and that this is a deeper symptom of post-kayfabe than we realize. This is deep. I'm gonna be pondering this for awhile, like a monk in a cave. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 2 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said: i think doing Top Lists and star ratings and stuff like that exists to fill a need to quantify our enjoyment of pro wrestling. Like, we feel like we can't just like stuff or dislike stuff, we have to rank it and rate it with real, hard numbers so our opinions can feel like real, hard facts. More and more I'm starting to think that this is a fallacy, so I guess I'm doing this pretentious, let's-be-honest-judgemental thing where I'm not trying to rank or rate anything. It's starting to tie in to the way I think about Meltzerism and the Olympic Figure Skatingization of pro wrestling. The preferred form of pro wrestling in this post-post-kayfabe era is becoming this thing that's judged on Degree of Difficulty and Cleanliness of Execution and How Many Things Can Happen in a Set Amount of Time and I think that's appealing to the young male masses the same way Eddie Van Halen playing the most notes the fastest made him the young male's fave guitarist decades ago. "If I'm going to make my enjoyment of [entertainment thing] part of my identity, I want to quantifiably argue why it is The Best Thing." A very teenage boy way of thinking. Not to say Eddie can't play great licks or that Ospreay can't have great moments. But the things they do, it's talent show, a guy doing the fastest moves and the fastest flips is a lot less abstract then the guy doing the most "feeling". And mainstream entertainment is so, so Not Abstract. Everything is so literal now. Maybe it's because the stories are FAKE and the athleticism is REAL and the modern fan is too ashamed to prioritize the FAKE artistic over the REAL athletic, and that this is a deeper symptom of post-kayfabe than we realize. Still, it's all a way to make the intangible tangible. Turning English into Math and all that. I've been writing up wrestling matches in a waaay more casual space than this one and three best ones out of the thirty or so I've posted before are Chigusa / Dump - Hair vs. Hair (the first one, the immoral manipulation of the audience one, the better one), the CMLL Torneo Cibernetico (the one you think), and JYD & Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik & Volkoff (again, the first one). So those are the recent classics that have brought me the most joy, although I'm sure I could argue that 6/9/95 is better or whatever. The Hair Match is the peak of audience manipulation. I've never seen anyone do that to a crowd, ever. I don't know if it's possible, I don't think you can get a crowd like late-80's Japanese Schoolgirls who can't Google the word "kayfabe" on their phones anymore. It speaks to a deeply jealous part of my theater kid self. I would kill to have that kind of power over an audience. It's perverse. The Cibernetico speaks to my love of long-form buffets. I'm not a horror movie buff, but I am VERY much an anthology horror movie buff. It's probably my favorite format for any kind of film. One out of every ten major releases should be an anthology. An hour plus of a bunch of thematically connected dope things happening in parallel. Even if it's the obvious choice the Felino Cibernetico is the best example of it I've seen. Helps that the framing device is Santo vs. Casas. My Dream AEW Match is making an entire episode of Rampage a Cibernetico with every luchador and ex-CHIKARA guy they have. The Big Philly Tag Match is perfect broad-stroke babyface vs. heel, a perfect New York brawl, it's the best glimpse of JYD's potential as a top babyface in the Fed if he hadn't been as troubled as he was, I actually posted it pre-Mania as a study in how smart and loud Philly crowds have always been. Something's always happening and everybody cares, every kid has a sign, nobody's cheering the heels even though you can tell the crowd is far more educated than others of the time. It's just neat. I think my enjoyment of lists, be it very outwardly performative a majority of the time, is more a fun lighthearted exercise in evaluating individual taste and preferred aesthetic. Non-defined in-stone dynamically changing entities that have an individual look at what they personally value and forcing yourself to uncomfortably rank what it is you find either important or preferred. All in good fun! Especially being “favorite” could literally include nostalgia and subjective preference. The goal is to look inward and I really appreciate you taking the time to share with me that. That’s so cool! The Hair vs Hair match you listed is among my favorites. Such passion and I really felt the entire experience. How unfair bullying is! What’s crazy is I tried watching that match and I didn’t know I was watching one that happened months earlier. Turned out it was the wrong match! I was so confused why no one got their hair cut! But then I watched the actual match and it was insane. One thing I noticed was that Chigusa was going for moves that were successful a month early. Seeing everything being countered and not working was heartbreaking. Especially the shitty ref added so much to the drama. What a great match! So painful. Link me to the Cibernetico, please. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 I'm gonna hate Ospreay forever if that stupid fucking cage match ruins Gordi's love forever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, Octopus said: Link me to the Cibernetico, please. *ahem* me too because I went trying and couldn't recently please and thank you *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordi the former AEW fan Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 2 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said: I'm gonna hate Ospreay forever if that stupid fucking cage match ruins Gordi's love forever. Thanks, brother. This is a bad one, but I don't think it's possible to permanently kill my love for pro wrestling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 If it wasn't for Japanese shipping and you probably not having a compatable Blu Ray I'd send you my copy of DEAN~!!! when I'm finished. That would certainly help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Dynamite Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Octopus said: I think my enjoyment of lists, be it very outwardly performative a majority of the time, is more a fun lighthearted exercise in evaluating individual taste and preferred aesthetic. Non-defined in-stone dynamically changing entities that have an individual look at what they personally value and forcing yourself to uncomfortably rank what it is you find either important or preferred. All in good fun! Especially being “favorite” could literally include nostalgia and subjective preference. The goal is to look inward and I really appreciate you taking the time to share with me that. That’s so cool! The Hair vs Hair match you listed is among my favorites. Such passion and I really felt the entire experience. How unfair bullying is! What’s crazy is I tried watching that match and I didn’t know I was watching one that happened months earlier. Turned out it was the wrong match! I was so confused why no one got their hair cut! But then I watched the actual match and it was insane. One thing I noticed was that Chigusa was going for moves that were successful a month early. Seeing everything being countered and not working was heartbreaking. Especially the shitty ref added so much to the drama. What a great match! So painful. Link me to the Cibernetico, please. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94A3LwJT29w I was afraid that I'd go back and watch it and it would all be played out, but it's like a super workrate 92 Rumble if it had to simplify it. Everybody's there, there's a million stories going on at once that a viewer can just intuitively pick up on, and I think Flair compared to Santo/Casas as throughlines have enough in common. Edited April 27 by John E. Dynamite 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 2 hours ago, Gordi the former AEW fan said: How about that run of singles matches Bryan has been on since December?!?! That whole Continental Classic run, putting Kingston over in the semi-final, Okada at WK, Nagata, HECHICERO, ZSJ in Osaka (the most beautiful professional wrestling, unfortunately followed up by the most stupid and ugly pro wrestling), Akiyama, Kingston again at Revolution, Shane Taylor, Shibata, Archer, Blue Panther in Arena Mexico (which I ain't seen yet), and Ospreay (which, I get why other people loved that, at least). Absurd. Insane. As great a run as any wrestler has ever had. Honestly, this Danielson AEW run has been my favorite in wrestling tv that I have luckily been around to experience. I truly feel lucky and will likely download all the matches to have on a hard drive and years later happily watch again. The Continental Classic came right when I was at my most negative towards AEW. That bought them a lot of time with me lol Eddie is a character I love dearly. His story in the classic was a true joy. Kingston made what I thought was an unneeded title into something I actually care about. I hope we get a cathartic Mic Foley winning the big one moment with him, but I could sadly see that never happening and the company pointing to this. At least we had this! The CMLL vs BCC was neat. It sadly turned into CMLL vs Jericho (like how Kingston vs BCC turned into a fucking Jericho feud) until the visa issues. Still fun though. BLUE PANTHER. I finally saw that. Super cool and I could tell Danielson was very happy. derp 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octopus Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 7 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94A3LwJT29w I was afraid that I'd go back and watch it and it would all be played out, but it's like a super workrate 92 Rumble if it had to simplify it. Everybody's there, there's a million stories going on at once that a viewer can just intuitively pick up on, and I think Flair compared to Santo/Casas as throughlines have enough in common. I looooooved El Hijo Del Santo vs Negro Casas from 97. Very excited to see this thinking of it as build up. THANK YOU 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 Is Jericho just where AEW feuds go to die when they start petering out? "And here it lay, at home in its grave, at the feet of the reaper... the Widowmaker..." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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