2018 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[J.T.]

Looks like Felice Herrig vs. Karolina Kowalkiewicz is on for UFC 223 and CM Punk will try to redeem himself against an opponent to be determined later on.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Punk is probably going to end putting over one of these Dana White Contender Series guys.  Based on some of the cards I've watched and the performances of the fighters who eventually got contracts, you're getting fighters who still need a lot of regional scene seasoning if we're using Mickey Gall as a baseline. Like a lot. But if they end up finding someone they really like at 170 or 185, I don't see how he doesn't end up as Punk's opponent. 

[supremebve]

47 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Punk is probably going to end putting over one of these Dana White Contender Series guys.  Based on some of the cards I've watched and the performances of the fighters who eventually got contracts, you're getting fighters who still need a lot of regional scene seasoning if we're using Mickey Gall as a baseline. Like a lot. But if they end up finding someone they really like at 170 or 185, I don't see how he doesn't end up as Punk's opponent. 

The difference between Punk and Mickey Gall and those Contender Series guys is the Punk is old and a complete novice who is fighting against time.  Those guys are professional fighters who have youth on their side, and have nothing but time to get better.  Punk does not want problems with any of those dudes.  Punk is pursuing a hobby, those dudes are pursuing a career.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

32 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The difference between Punk and Mickey Gall and those Contender Series guys is the Punk is old and a complete novice who is fighting against time.  Those guys are professional fighters who have youth on their side, and have nothing but time to get better.  Punk does not want problems with any of those dudes.  Punk is pursuing a hobby, those dudes are pursuing a career.  

Yeah, that's my point but that's the type of fighter he is going to face. I don't see a rational commission (and use the term rational loosely) putting him with anyone above that level. With the Contender series, at least it will be someone they can vet out who likely won't have more than five or six fights instead of "random guy calls out CM Punk at regional show and we give him the fight just cause" like Gall. Plus, they don't have to something like the Mike Jackson fight on an actual UFC card. You can just do it on the Fight Pass show and have time to do pre fight packages and all that other stuff. 

But some of these guys aren't young. Zu Anyanwu is 36.  Kurt Holobaugh who was already in the UFC is 31. Daniel Spohn who was in the UFC for a brief time is 33. Charles Byrd who is on the card in London in March is 34. So they can find another old dude (these LFA cards are littered with older fighters) if they want. They don't have to be super young like Mickey Gall. They can find someone with a half intriguing backstory and just toss him in their with Punk.

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But some of these guys aren't young. Zu Anyanwu is 36.  Kurt Holobaugh who was already in the UFC is 31. Daniel Spohn who was in the UFC for a brief time is 33. Charles Byrd who is on the card in London in March is 34. So they can find another old dude (these LFA cards are littered with older fighters) if they want. They don't have to be super young like Mickey Gall. They can find someone with a half intriguing backstory and just toss him in their with Punk.

I think the difference is that CM Punk thinks MMA is a fun activity, those dudes think beating CM Punk's ass will improve the lives of their children.    Those dudes had a job and looked at MMA and decided they might be able to kick enough ass to get a better life.  That is a vastly different thing.  Zu Anyanwu is 36 and would love nothing else than to beat a pro wrestler half to death to make his name. That is different than the dude who decided, "I think I'm going to try MMA, after retiring from his high paying career.  Punk needs to hang up the gloves before one of these dudes actually hurts him.  

[(BP)]

12 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 CM Punk thinks MMA is a fun activity, those dudes think beating CM Punk's ass will improve the lives of their children.    

I believe this is what they call a win-win. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

15 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I think the difference is that CM Punk thinks MMA is a fun activity, those dudes think beating CM Punk's ass will improve the lives of their children.    Those dudes had a job and looked at MMA and decided they might be able to kick enough ass to get a better life.  That is a vastly different thing.  Zu Anyanwu is 36 and would love nothing else than to beat a pro wrestler half to death to make his name. That is different than the dude who decided, "I think I'm going to try MMA, after retiring from his high paying career.  Punk needs to hang up the gloves before one of these dudes actually hurts him.  

And if I was a Sean Shelby or a Mick Maynard, he would be fighting one of those guys because you can eventually feed the winner of that fight to someone else. Fighting a Mickey Gall type doesn't do much because when they lose, that heat doesn't transfer over to the next guy. Randy Brown beating Gall isn't doing anything for his career other than establishing that he is higher up on a prospect totem pole which people should have known beforehand because Randy fought real fighters. To me, Gall is basically 0-1 in the UFC. His first fight was against a reporter who moonlights as a kickboxer and the second was against CM Punk. Those two fights could have been against fighters who would help him develop. If the fighter off the show isn't someone you immediately want to catapult into superstardom like a Conor McGregor coming from Cage Warriors after months of people saying the UFC should sign this guy and you just feel he has to fight Punk, then don't waste your time and give him meaningful fights. I mean if Punk fought an Israel Adesanya, it would be Barboza-Etim x50 but it wouldn't mean anything at all besides memes. However, Israel Adesanya is probably talented enough right now to beat actual UFC fighters and style on them. He can become a star like that anyway. If it's some guy who struggled on the regional scene for years and has a compelling backstory, you can get traction from that guy instead of just flaming out of the UFC after 1 or 2 fights.

 

[supremebve]

You are forgetting Gall beat Sage Northcutt pretty handily.  I think Gall is a very good prospect who has enough grappling chops to be a pretty good fighter in the future.  

I can see where you're coming from though.  Put a young, talented guy in the ring with CM Punk, let him style on him and then push that guy onto bigger and better things.  It makes sense for the UFC.  I'm actually surprised they haven't put him in the cage with Northcutt when you look at it like that.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

You are forgetting Gall beat Sage Northcutt pretty handily.  I think Gall is a very good prospect who has enough grappling chops to be a pretty good fighter in the future.  

To be honest, I don't know if I would count that considering Northcutt was still a college student and his dad was still dictating where he was training. That's why he went from one camp in Texas to training at Tristar then going to Roufusport to help Woodley out.  You can't grow as a fighter like that if you're at a new gym every month and then focusing on getting an engineering degree. Tecia Torres did that but she was primarily in one gym although she left ATT to go to Colorado in the meanwhile. Plus, she is already a legit MMA fighter.

Sage still has a lot to room to grow, but I think the current version of Sage would massacre CM Punk something fierce. They're not going to put him in there with Punk. The window closed on that IMO.

 

[supremebve]

38 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Sage still has a lot to room to grow, but I think the current version of Sage would massacre CM Punk something fierce. They're not going to put him in there with Punk. The window closed on that IMO.

I need to figure out who the top prospects are these days.  One of my favorite parts of MMA is trying to figure out what young fighters who are going to be contenders.  Sage is a good prospect, but I don't think he's ever getting to championship levels.  I think Darren Till is #1 right now, he is 25, been fighting for 5 years, and has everything you want from a young fighter.  That draw with Dalby is secretly the best evidence that he's on track for something special.  He took an ass whooping in the 3rd round and was still trying to set up strikes even when he was stumbling around.  That shows a level of toughness and composure that is rare in a fighter that young.  Mike Perry improves way too fast from fight to fight to not be considered.  He's a crazy person, but that dude is talented, learns fast, and is completely unafraid.  Aaron Pico just smashed a dude with a body shot that pretty much removed all of the doubts I had about his potential after that early loss.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I need to figure out who the top prospects are these days.  One of my favorite parts of MMA is trying to figure out what young fighters who are going to be contenders.  Sage is a good prospect, but I don't think he's ever getting to championship levels.  I think Darren Till is #1 right now, he is 25, been fighting for 5 years, and has everything you want from a young fighter.  That draw with Dalby is secretly the best evidence that he's on track for something special.  He took an ass whooping in the 3rd round and was still trying to set up strikes even when he was stumbling around.  That shows a level of toughness and composure that is rare in a fighter that young.  Mike Perry improves way too fast from fight to fight to not be considered.  He's a crazy person, but that dude is talented, learns fast, and is completely unafraid.  Aaron Pico just smashed a dude with a body shot that pretty much removed all of the doubts I had about his potential after that early loss.  

For me...Sage is too early to tell. To be fair, I think the same of Pico. Pico is fighting dudes who are getting off their shift at Chipotle. All I know is that Pico has a higher ceiling than Sage because it's clear he has more understanding of all phases of the game and his credentials. However, Pico still has to fight someone half decent for me to say anything concrete. We should feel safe about Darren Till because he has fought and actually beaten live bodies. Plus, outside of living in Brazil for a minute, his training situation is more stable. 

The thing with Sage is while his father was still over him, he never got a chance to stay at one spot. He stayed at Tristar for one fight (Randa Markos did that as well and went back to Michigan Top Team). He didn't look all that great so I guess his dad sent him elsewhere. Who knows what he could have looked like 4 or 5 fights under Firas Zahabi? That's why I am cautiously optimistic about Team Alpha Male even though their primary focus is 145 and under, and they now have a system where no one coach is the head coach (I'm guessing Faber, Fabio Prado, Justin Buchholz, and Chris Holdsworth all share the same responsibilities). With prospects, you have to get a context of whatever else is going on with them. Now if he stayed in Katy, Texas with his family and kept on with the school thing, he would always be at the Legacy (now LFA) level where it looks like he trains with McDojo BJJ coaches and does nothing but padwork.

[supremebve]

13 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The thing with Sage is while his father was still over him, he never got a chance to stay at one spot. He stayed at Tristar for one fight (Randa Markos did that as well and went back to Michigan Top Team). He didn't look all that great so I guess his dad sent him elsewhere. Who knows what he could have looked like 4 or 5 fights under Firas Zahabi? That's why I am cautiously optimistic about Team Alpha Male even though their primary focus is 145 and under, and they now have a system where no one coach is the head coach (I'm guessing Faber, Fabio Prado, Justin Buchholz, and Chris Holdsworth all share the same responsibilities). With prospects, you have to get a context of whatever else is going on with them. Now if he stayed in Katy, Texas with his family and kept on with the school thing, he would always be at the Legacy (now LFA) level where it looks like he trains with McDojo BJJ coaches and does nothing but padwork.

Sage is not a closed book, but he still doesn't seem to have a great grasp on how to chain techniques together like the best fighters.  That is an issue for someone who has pretty much been training MMA as a discipline like a new age Todd Marinovich.  I actually pull for him, he seems to be a decent dude and those videos he did with Tyronn Woodley made him look like a lovable goof.  I don't know if he'll ever make it, but he's a hell of an athlete who seems to work hard.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

27 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Sage is not a closed book, but he still doesn't seem to have a great grasp on how to chain techniques together like the best fighters.  That is an issue for someone who has pretty much been training MMA as a discipline like a new age Todd Marinovich.  I actually pull for him, he seems to be a decent dude and those videos he did with Tyronn Woodley made him look like a lovable goof.  I don't know if he'll ever make it, but he's a hell of an athlete who seems to work hard.  

That's why it is up in the air for me because he is still incredibly young and doesn't have a bunch of wear and tear. I would go back to a young Robbie Lawler in his first UFC run to what I would compare Sage and a lot of other prospects to as far as a comparable example. Lawler was very fun and exciting to watch and people had hopes he might turn into something, but it was clear Lawler was a very flawed fighter. It seemed like the best of the best were on a certain tier, and he was destined to be on a tier a couple notches below that. However, what made Lawler the Robbie we would come to know in his second run is all the experiences in his first run. Yeah, Lawler has innate qualities Sage will most likely never have. However, you can say the same for Sage and some will likely pop up if he improves and fights long enough. It was funny when people were dumping on him for being the golden boy, but it would be revisionist history to say Lawler wasn't one when he was the same age. If he was some phony like a Tony Bonello fighting in staged and fixed fights and then got introduced to the terrordome by Ninja Rua, it would be different. Same with the Dada 5000s of the world. But if someone has superstar qualities and can actually one day become a good fighter or better than that, I'm all aboard especially if they're serious about it.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Al Iaquinta signed a new four fight deal with the UFC, which set in motion the Felder fight. Stipe Miocic is getting his current deal restructured, which is great for him.

[Elsalvajeloco]

As I said in the 220 thread, makes sense especially if Cormier only has a year left. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Well, that didn't take long.

226 is shaping up as Stipe vs. DC, Cyborg vs. Nunes, and either DJ vs. TJ or Woodley vs. TBA. If the theme is champion vs. champion, obviously Dillashaw vs. Mighty Mouse should be in that spot.

[Elsalvajeloco]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:57 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

It seems like there were reports that Condit vs. Brown was the main event for that card yesterday so I don't know if that's going to be on that card or just something from the unconfirmed rumor mill.

Update: So yeah, Condit vs. Brown is on the card as well. Plus, the location and venue are official.

[John E. Dynamite]

If Cormier's fighting for the HW title, Cain must have suffered some freak injury in the last week. Like his back fell off, or something.

[Elsalvajeloco]

36 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

If Cormier's fighting for the HW title, Cain must have suffered some freak injury in the last week. Like his back fell off, or something.

Cain just started back light training a couple weeks ago, and it sounded like he has no plans of rushing back. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Craig H]

So, for either guy, this pretty cements GOAT status, as if they weren't knocking on that door already.

[TheVileOne]

Not saying Cain Velasquez can't mount a come back, but he hasn't fought since July 2016. And even if UFC booked Miocic vs. Velasquez, there's a high likelihood he'd never make it to that fight anyway.

Book him in a rematch with Werdum again and let's see if he can stay healthy long enough to take that fight.

[Elsalvajeloco]

If Cain can be ready for July, they can do the Werdum rematch on that 226 show. I mean that's the fairest possible matchup for the the next contender. Werdum hasn't really notched a win to be the outright #1 contender, and it's been so long since Cain's over Travis Browne that he needs restablish himself. Now it would hinge on Cain's health and how soon he will be ready to fight in addition to Werdum's willingness to not sit out and accept the fight.

[Elsalvajeloco]