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Battleground V


Dolfan in NYC
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I think Orton deserves some credit for making that reidiculous cage shaking spot look good. Somehow he made it look convincing that Kahli could fhake the cage causing him to flip back over to the inside and off the cage but hold on with one hand.  I sear 50% of the time that has to fuck up somehow.

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1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I wouldn't.  I like Corbin okay enough but he has a long ways to go.  He's not in the same universe as a guy like Yoshii or Nagata,  I don't even need to discuss the cream of the crop.  But that's besides the point.  If your argument is that "Nakamura shouldn't be mailing it in"...   

I don't necessarily disagree with that argument but how can we be surprised?  He mailed it in on NJPW shows all the time. That's who he is. If anyone thought he'd come in and have great TV matches with performance center projects,  it was never going to happen. 

I'm not saying he's better then Nagata or Yoshi, but I'd say he's better then Makabe, Fale, and, imo, Tonga. That's also not going into my slowly building dislike of Ishii trying to kill himself, but whatevs on that one.

 

And your not wrong, and I'm not overly surprised it's happening. But the evidence of him not really giving a shit about almost any match he's been in is too damn high, and I keep seeing excuses for it. Oh, the Joe/Nakamura series was a let down. Joe just doesn't have it anymore. Well, Joe sure as fuck seems to have it on the main roster. Roodes best match this year was with Roddy, someone who I admit is basically charisma less, where as the Nak/Roode series was meh. We have an 18 month sample size of work, more or less, and it has constantly been underwhelming. Matches that should b great are just good, matches that should be good are boring. Thats either a constant lack of motivation, or just a sign he doesn't mix well into WWE style. Either way, I think the WWE move has clearly hurt his career with New Japan blowing up.

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2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Orton was fine for the St. Louis show because you knew he'd get a nice ovation and the crowd would be into it etc. but they went to the well with Randy fucking Orton 3 fucking times?!!  How does this happen???  

They could have paired AJ with Jinder in the cage and he would have bounced around like a maniac. Even if they wanted to do the fuck finish okay fine it still would have protected AJ.  Orton is a guy who can still go and still be utilized in the main event scene with the right people or the right circumstances but this is asking way too much. 

Or they could have just given us AJ vs. Orton three times instead. I kinda humored them with the Jinder push but it's clear they aren't even all that committed to it. They barely feature him then ask someone else to drag something good out of him whenever he gets in the ring. It's a waste of my time.

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You know when Charlie is one of the most vociferous in a WWE thread, shit is bad.

Orton was pretty great in the first two PPV matches with Jinder. Tonight was much mission impossible but I still don't think he mailed it in. Was it just me or did he say something about "there's your color" after he saw he was bleeding from his arm?

I don't think this deal with Nakamura has anything to do with him not having "it" anymore. He's just coasting because he can get away with it. I thought he may be saving himself for the main roster when he was in NXT but that's clearly not the case. He'll show up when he's in there with Styles I'm guessing but I guess he's thinking why bust ass when you don't have to. It's terrible to watch. And, yeah, this isn't even out of character entirely for him as he'd take a lot of nights off in New Japan but at least he'd always be there when it really mattered.

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BTW, I'm not saying Nak doesn't have "it" anymore, I'm saying if you mail it in this much on a nation television where a lot of folks might be buying tickets to see you, and you are clearly mailing it in, they might not buy tickets to see you anymore. Basically, you guys are saying he's coasting because he can get away with it. I'm saying, he's not going to get away with it. WWE won't put him in big matches if he's mailing it in, and he's gonna mail it in if he's not in big matches. I predict a catch 22.

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3 minutes ago, Charlie M. said:

I liked the first two matches with Jinder from Orton's perspective. He was working his ass off in those to try and make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

I think you're being too harsh on Jinder, he's not a horrible wrestler and he's okay on the mic with the right material but let's be honest,  they are half-assing this entire thing. It could have been decent IMO but they have him come out and say the same shit every single week,  almost word for word.  Where are the vignettes like they did with Hassan?  Where are the heinous attacks on the foundation of America like they did with Slaughter?  

They've done NONE of that.  They are being cheap and lazy as fuck.  Plus, why is Rusev still an evil foreigner?  Two evil foreigners on the same show and neither of them are given anything to work with?  

Rusev and Lana should have turned into Americans by now.  Just look at Rusev's twitter feed, it's gold.  Him and Lana could be eating hot dogs and watching ball games. It would work because Rusev is awesome and would make it work. 

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4 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

BTW, I'm not saying Nak doesn't have "it" anymore, I'm saying if you mail it in this much on a nation television where a lot of folks might be buying tickets to see you, and you are clearly mailing it in, they might not buy tickets to see you anymore. Basically, you guys are saying he's coasting because he can get away with it. I'm saying, he's not going to get away with it. WWE won't put him in big matches if he's mailing it in, and he's gonna mail it in if he's not in big matches. I predict a catch 22.

I think that's fair. He's gotten away with it so far, especially if Metlz's claims of him being in the Cena role when Cena's not around are true. However, you can hear the audience just not really buy into his matches. There were some halfhearted Nakamura chants tonight but they were so unenthused, it's impossible not to hear it. He himself said he's 90% entrance now IIRC. He's all but fast forward material after the bell rings at this point.

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4 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

BTW, I'm not saying Nak doesn't have "it" anymore, I'm saying if you mail it in this much on a nation television where a lot of folks might be buying tickets to see you, and you are clearly mailing it in, they might not buy tickets to see you anymore. Basically, you guys are saying he's coasting because he can get away with it. I'm saying, he's not going to get away with it. WWE won't put him in big matches if he's mailing it in, and he's gonna mail it in if he's not in big matches. I predict a catch 22.

But there's that third option I discussed earlier which is special attraction. Nakamura can't be John Cena but he can be The Undertaker.  So why not use him like that.  I don't think the money in Nak is as an everyday performer. It's the dream match scenarios that people want to see. 

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35 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

So obviously Nakamura can still go..   he's in there with shitty wrestlers and green wrestlers and doesn't care and why should he. 

Maybe because it's his job, and he's being paid a lot of money to. Say what you want about Ziggler or Corbin, but I don't recall seeing them intentionally working below their capability. Nak will get a bad rep in a hurry, and you won't be seeing any big matches with AJ or whoever else you think are the people that are worthy of getting Nak to give a shit. His entire run in NXT besides his debut match was a disappointment. Bobby Roode is a better NXT champ than Nak was.

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1 minute ago, JCM said:

Maybe because it's his job, and he's being paid a lot of money to. Say what you want about Ziggler or Corbin, but I don't recall seeing them intentionally working below their capability. Nak will get a bad rep in a hurry, and you won't be seeing any big matches with AJ or whoever else you think are the people that are worthy of getting Nak to give a shit. His entire run in NXT besides his debut match was a disappointment. Bobby Roode is a better NXT champ than Nak was.

Well see I guess that's where we differ because I wouldn't pay to watch Nakamura face Dolph Ziggler but I would pay to watch him work Cena, AJ, Sami Zayn.

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1 minute ago, El Dragon said:

Because WWE isn't gonna buy that a part time guy with no established history in North America is gonna move the needle to anyone yet. Special Attraction is his best role, but WWE ain't doing that shit for someone who draw no interest from casuals or nostalgia.

Okay I can see this being a fair point IF we didn't have some evidence that suggests otherwise.  The crowd at Money in the Bank became UNGLUED when it was Nak/AJ.  That shows me that Nakamura is a draw.  It wasn't 20,000 die hard NJPW fans in attendance. 

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3 minutes ago, JCM said:

Maybe because it's his job, and he's being paid a lot of money to. Say what you want about Ziggler or Corbin, but I don't recall seeing them intentionally working below their capability. Nak will get a bad rep in a hurry, and you won't be seeing any big matches with AJ or whoever else you think are the people that are worthy of getting Nak to give a shit. His entire run in NXT besides his debut match was a disappointment. Bobby Roode is a better NXT champ than Nak was.

Fuck, Samoa Joe was kinda being viewed as past his prime and done because the Nak series was so underwhelming, then he gets called up and feels like an equal to Lesnar and a god damnes star. If Nak couldn't work up the energy or ability to have really good matches with Joe, who will he do it for?

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I don't think Nakamura has coasted much this year. The first match with Ziggler just wasn't what people wanted, particularly because they dislike Ziggler. Their second match was better. Nakamura vs. Owens was good though forgettable. The MITB performance was good as well. The TJP match was also pretty good. He has generally been solid in tags. You can dislike the Roode matches if you want, but lets not pretend the board wasn't mixed on them with half of us thinking they were good-great. Honestly, I would say the Corbin match was more part chemistry and part booking. Corbin is a solid performer, but he still has a ways to go singles wise. He also isn't all that over which makes any match where he takes control likely to see the crowd lose interest. 

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8 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I think you're being too harsh on Jinder, he's not a horrible wrestler and he's okay on the mic with the right material but let's be honest,  they are half-assing this entire thing. It could have been decent IMO but they have him come out and say the same shit every single week,  almost word for word.  Where are the vignettes like they did with Hassan?  Where are the heinous attacks on the foundation of America like they did with Slaughter?  

They've done NONE of that.  They are being cheap and lazy as fuck.  Plus, why is Rusev still an evil foreigner?  Two evil foreigners on the same show and neither of them are given anything to work with?  

Rusev and Lana should have turned into Americans by now.  Just look at Rusev's twitter feed, it's gold.  Him and Lana could be eating hot dogs and watching ball games. It would work because Rusev is awesome and would make it work. 

That's kinda what I was getting at with saying they aren't all that committed to it. It started that way but they backed way off.

Jinder is not a good a wrestler, though. I could overlook that to a point if they were doing amazing things with his character but they haven't. They've been lazy as fuck like you said. Orton in the matches has been making chicken salad out of chicken shit because that's his job but it's wasted effort if the company has nothing beyond the same foreign heel template for Jinder. If creative sucks, I'd rather just see AJ and Orton wrestle to see who is better at hitting their moves.

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Lost in all of our is Nakamura too lazy talking, we have not hit what I think is the bigger question of "Does Nakamura just suck at "WWE Style" Cause save for the Zayn match which was worked very similar to his matches with AJ and Ibushi, and the AJ exchange which is, well with AJ who has past experience with, we haven't even really had moments were he felt like the same epic ring worker he was in New Japan.

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1 minute ago, El Dragon said:

Fuck, Samoa Joe was kinda being viewed as past his prime and done because the Nak series was so underwhelming, then he gets called up and feels like an equal to Lesnar and a god damnes star. If Nak couldn't work up the energy or ability to have really good matches with Joe, who will he do it for?

I don't recall anyone saying Joe was past his prime after the Nakamura series. It was kind of clear Nakamura coasted the first match, and they just didn't have great chemistry in the next few matches.

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Just now, Eivion said:

I don't recall anyone saying Joe was past his prime after the Nakamura series. It was kind of clear Nakamura coasted the first match, and they just didn't have great chemistry in the next few matches.

How many times can we say Nak didn't have great chemistry with someone before we just start questioning if he isn't adjusting to WWE style well?

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6 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Well see I guess that's where we differ because I wouldn't pay to watch Nakamura face Dolph Ziggler but I would pay to watch him work Cena, AJ, Sami Zayn.

So the people who are willing to pay to watch a show with Nak vs Corbin on it deserve to see a half ass performance from Nakamura?

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