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UFC 200: Tate vs. Nunes (7/9/2016) - Las Vegas, NV (T-Mobile Arena)


Elsalvajeloco

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Ha! The only thing that could convince Vince to pay guys more is a public penis measuring contest with Dana over who's big enough to be able to pay guys more.

 

Who am I kidding.  $$$$$ is the one area where Vince doesn't think with his meat.

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On 7/9/2016 at 11:20 PM, Craig H said:

I  had Edgar winning. 4 to 1, 3 to 2 at worst. I don't see how you give Aldo 4 of those rounds. 

I don't want you on an island by yourself. I actually had Edgar 3-2. To me, his activity in those first 3 rounds was enough to give him the edge. With that said, I think Aldo won the fight. Seemed like Frankie knew it, too. There was never a point where I thought the judges would agree with me, though. 

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16 minutes ago, JoshEngleman said:

I don't want you on an island by yourself. I actually had Edgar 3-2. To me, his activity in those first 3 rounds was enough to give him the edge. With that said, I think Aldo won the fight. Seemed like Frankie knew it, too. There was never a point where I thought the judges would agree with me, though. 

I have a question, did either of you watch that fight in a place you could hear the impact of the punches?  If you did I don't know how you could think Frankie won.  When they exchanged, Frankie missed more than he connected, and when he did connect his punches didn't seem to have much impact.  When Aldo's punches landed, you could see and hear just how hard those punches were connecting.  Doing more doesn't really mean anything, the rules state that fights should be judged on effective striking and effective grappling.  Edgar was busier, but he was not nearly as effective as Aldo.  Edgar was outclassed by one of the 5 best MMA fighters of all time.  There is not a single aspect of MMA where Frankie was the superior fighter on Saturday night.  He was just busy, which means absolutely nothing.

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You could probably give him round five just because you could see Aldo knew or at least had a sense he had won enough rounds comfortably. Aldo backed off in the last 30-45 seconds of the round. I think I had it 49-46 Aldo. 

What's funny is that Chris Nelson of Sherdog had Aldo winning all five rounds. However, he also scored two 10-10 rounds (Round 1 & 5). 

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Do you guys think you are giving too much weight to overall damage or damage dealt? Those aren't judging criteria. Fights are also judged on octagon control, dictating pace, effective aggressiveness, etc. You both keep talking about Aldo "punching through Frankie's head" and the sound of Aldo's punches. Aldo threw a louder sounding punch, but did it slow or stop Frankie? No, it didn't. Frankie kept coming forward, landing combinations, etc. I watched the fight with 7.1 surround going, you could hear the shit fairly well. All the commentary came through on the center channel and you could easily tune that out. It doesn't simply come down to how a fighter looked when the fight was over or how loud strikes sounded or how painful they looked. If that were the case, Johnny should have beaten GSP 49-46.

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3 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You could probably give him round five just because you could see Aldo knew or at least had a sense he had won enough rounds comfortably. Aldo backed off in the last 30-45 seconds of the round. I think I had it 49-46 Aldo. 

What's funny is that Chris Nelson of Sherdog had Aldo winning all five rounds. However, he also scored two 10-10 rounds (Round 1 & 5). 

The last 30-45 seconds of the last round he was trying to time a flying knee.  You can see him kind of hop a couple of times but Frankie closed the distance before he could actually throw it.  He knew he was winning and wanted to put an explanation point on his win.  

 

3 minutes ago, Craig H said:

 

You guys are giving too much weight to overall damage or damage dealt, which isn't judging criteria. Fights are also judged on octagon control, dictating pace, effective aggressiveness, etc. You both keep talking about Aldo "punching through Frankie's head" and the sound of Aldo's punches. Aldo threw a louder sounding punch, but did it slow or stop Frankie? No, it didn't. Frankie kept coming forward, landing combinations, etc. I watched the fight with 7.1 surround going, you could hear the shit fairly well. All the commentary came through on the center channel and you could easily tune that out. It doesn't simply come down to how a fighter looked when the fight was over or how loud strikes sounded or how painful they looked. If that were the case, Johnny should have beaten GSP 49-46.

 

There is a big difference between damage and effective striking.  Jose Aldo was able to land at will, and Frankie Edgar could not.  Aldo landed cleaner, stronger, more effective offense.  Coming forward, constantly throwing and mostly missing punches is not more effective than Aldo cleanly countering Edgar's constant offense.  Frankie is an incredibly durable fighter, and absorbed a shitload of punishment.  Frankie did not control the octagon, Aldo's footwork and head movement kept him missing the entire fight.  He didn't dictate the pace, Aldo pretty much only threw punches he felt were perfectly set up.  Edgar's aggressiveness was leading to future brain damage, eating a big right hand after swinging and missing is not effective aggressiveness.   Aldo was pretty much masterful.  He's one of the best fighters of all time, and that was probably his very best performance.  Sure, he's knocked a bunch of people dead over his career, but Edgar is the best fighter he's beat.  Edgar was really good on Saturday night, and nothing he did mattered at all.  

NSAC Judging Criteria(spoilered for length)

Spoiler

VIII. JUDGES

A. No judge will have a financial interest in any fighter he judges.

B. No judge will be a manager/trainer of any fighter he judges.

C. In a bout goes to it's full time limit, the outcome will be decided by a majority decision of
three, (3), MMAC judges.

D. A judge is accredited, sanctioned and selected based upon his character, experience, stature in the MMA world, knowledge of MMA systems and impartiality.

E. Judging Criteria
1. Judges are required to determine the winner of a bout that goes to it's full time limit based upon the following criteria:
-Clean Strikes
-Effective Grappling
-Octagon Control
-Effective Aggressiveness

F. Clean Strikes
1. The fighter who is landing both effective and efficient clean strikes.
2. There are two ways of measuring strikes:
-the total number of clean strikes landed (more efficient)
-the total number of heavy strikes landed (more effective)

G. The heavier striker who lands with efficiency, deserves more credit from the Judges than total number landed.
1. If the striking power between the fighters was equal, then the total number landed would be used as the criteria.
2. The total number of strikes landed, should be of sufficient quantity favoring a fighter, to earn a winning round.

H. Strikes thrown from the top position of the guard, are generally heavier and more effective than those thrown from the back.
1. Thus a Judge shall recognize that effective strikes thrown from the top guard position are of "higher quality", than thrown from the bottom.
2. The Judge shall recognize that this is not always the case.
However, the vast majority of fighters prefer the top guard position to strike from. This is a strong indication of positional dominance for striking.

I. Effective Grappling
1. The Judge shall recognize the value of both the clean takedown and active guard position.
2. The Judge shall recognize that a fighter who is able to cleanly takedown his opponent, is effectively grappling.
3. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter on his back in an active guard position, can effectively grapple, through execution of repeated threatening attempts at submission and reversal resulting in continuous defense from the top fighter.
4. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter who maneuvers from guard to mount is effectively grappling.
5. A Judge shall recognize that the guard position alone shall be scored neutral or even, if none of the preceding situations were met.(items 2-4)
6. A Judge shall recognize that if the fighters remain in guard the majority of a round with neither fighter having an edge in clean striking or effective grappling, (items 2-4), the fighter who scored the clean takedown deserves the round.
7. A clean reversal is equal to a clean takedown in effective grappling

J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities

K. Effective Aggressiveness
1. This simply means who is moving forward and finding success.(scoring) 
2. Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward.
3. Throwing strikes and not landing is not effective aggressiveness.
4. Moving forward and getting struck is not effective aggressiveness.
5. Shooting takedowns and getting countered and fended off is not effective aggressiveness.

L. Criteria Evaluation
1. Each judge is to evaluate which fighter was most effective. Thus striking and grappling skills are top priority.
2. Evaluating the criteria requires the use of a sliding scale. Fights can remain standing or grounded. Judges shall recognize that it isn't how long the fighters are standing or grounded, as to the scoring the fighters achieve ,while in those positions.
3. If 90% of the round is grounded one fighter on top, then:
-effective grappling is weighed first.
-clean striking is weighed next. If clean strikes scored in the round, the Judge shall factor it 
in. Clean Striking can outweigh Effective Grappling while the fighters are grounded.
-octagon control is next (pace, place & position)

4. The same rational holds true if 90% of the round were standing. Thus:
-clean striking would be weighed first (fighter most effective)
-clean grappling second (any takedowns or effective clinching)
-octagon control which fighter maintained better position? Which fighter created the situations
that led to effective strikes?

5. If a round was 50% standing and 50% on the ground, then:
-clean striking and effective grappling are weighed more equally.
-octagon control would be factored next

6. In all three hypothetical situations, effective aggressiveness is factored in last. It is the 
criteria of least importance. Since the definition calls for moving forward and scoring, it is 
imperative for the Judges to look at the scoring first.

7. Thus for all Judges scoring UFC fights, the prioritized order of evaluating criteria is:
-clean strikes and effective grappling are weighed first.
-octagon control
-effective aggressiveness
M. Domination Criteria
1. A Judge may determine that a fighter dominated his opponent in a round. This can lead to a two point or more difference on a Judge's scorecard.
2. The definition of a dominating round is a fighter's ability to effectively strike, grapple and 
control his opponent.
3. A Judge may determine a round was dominating if a fighter was adversely affected by one of the following:
-knocked down from standing position by clean strike
-by submission attempt
-from a throw
-from clean strikes either standing or grounded.

N. Judge's Scorecard Procedures
After each round:
1. each Judge will determine and record a score each round
2. a MMAC official will collect the scorecard after each round
3. the MMAC official will track and add each Judges score by round
4. If the fight goes the time limit, the MMAC official will add each Judge's scorecard and double check total
5. the fighter with the greater number of points wins the fight on each Judges scorecard
6. the fighter who won on the majority of the Judges Scorecards, wins the fight
7. the MMAC official will hand the decision to the PA announcer

O. Types of Judge's Decisions
1. If all three scorecards agree Unanimous
2. If two of three scorecards agree Split
3. Two scorecards agree and one draw Majority
4. two scorecards agree on draw Draw
5. all scorecards different Draw

IX SCORING SYSTEM

A. The MMAC and UFC have adopted a 10 point must system.
The Judge will use the criteria to determine a winner each round. The three step procedure per round is as follows:
-determine winner of round (can be draw)
-determine if winner dominated round
-fouls then factored in (subtract one point per foul from fighter)

B. Draws are again acceptable in MMAC events

C. Point Totals
1. two fighters who draw are given a score of 10-10
2. the fighter who wins a round is given a score of 10-9
3.The fighter who dominates a round is given a score of 10-8
(a score of 10-7 is possible for a dominant round)
4.For each foul a fighter commits, a point is subtracted. This deduction can change a winning round to a draw. 9-9

 

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I gave Frankie round 1 and that was it.  Gave Aldo the rest of the rounds.  And really halfway through the third round I thought it was over.  You could just tell Frankie had nothing for Aldo.  Frankie is great and I really thought he would win this fight but it looked a lot like I remember the first fight going.  Everything even remotely meaningful in the fight came from Aldo. 

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Going into that final round, I figured there would be a KO finish. I thought Frankie would be desperate and going for the kill, and he would either hit, or Aldo would take him out. I have to say that I am a casual(at best) fan, so take that for what its worth. . .

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On 7/12/2016 at 9:33 AM, supremebve said:

I have a question, did either of you watch that fight in a place you could hear the impact of the punches?  If you did I don't know how you could think Frankie won.  When they exchanged, Frankie missed more than he connected, and when he did connect his punches didn't seem to have much impact.  When Aldo's punches landed, you could see and hear just how hard those punches were connecting.  Doing more doesn't really mean anything, the rules state that fights should be judged on effective striking and effective grappling.  Edgar was busier, but he was not nearly as effective as Aldo.  Edgar was outclassed by one of the 5 best MMA fighters of all time.  There is not a single aspect of MMA where Frankie was the superior fighter on Saturday night.  He was just busy, which means absolutely nothing.

I watched it alone in my media room. Admittedly, I was pretty hungover. I don't want it to sound like I thought Edgar was taking it to Aldo during the first 3 rounds. Not trying to put all my eggs in the "significant strikes" basket, either. It's just one of those weird scoring quirks, for me. By the end of the fight, it was clear that Edgar wasn't landing with power and Aldo was. The problem is that I didn't have that information after R1. I just saw Edgar pushing the pace for the entire round and landing a comparable amount of strikes. I felt like that the first two rounds, with the 3rd round looking like Aldo was starting to find himself. At that point, I realized that Edgar was frustrated and Aldo was just overpowering him. If I were judging the fight as a whole, I give it to Aldo, no question.

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