THROW THE RASCALS OUT REVERSE HOF VOTING

[OSJ]

Okay, we can all agree that the Baseball HOF has inducted many unworthy individuals. Based on their own rules which include "character", who should get booted out for being a douche? Who should be kicked out for being inducted for being someone's drinking buddy. Limit to ten choices, but this should be fun... Here are mine.

 

1. Tyrus Raymond Cobb - Arguably the greatest player ever, however the guy was a complete sociopath who is known to have assaulted several people and is rumored to have actually murdered a couple. Out he goes.

 

2. Tris Speaker - Card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan, out he goes.

 

3. Adrian "Cap" Anson - First man to compile 3000 hits, also the main reason that baseball closed the door to black players for several decades. A whining, conniving piece of shit who knew that the addition of some superior black players on other teams could reduce his team to irrelevancy. Out he goes.

 

4. Phil Rizzuto - Spent years whining about not getting voted in a major market  where people actually believed the hype. Yeah, he played on a lot of winning teams, but the Yankees won with him and they won without him. Comparing him to Pee Wee Reese is laughable.

 

5. Rick Ferrell - By all accounts a very nice man, he doesn't belong on a list of douchenozzles, but he doesn't belong in the HOF either.

 

6. Earl Averill - And I'm a Washingtonian by birth... Too short a career and the numbers just aren't there.

 

7. Thomas Yawkey - So, being a racist twit and owning an underperforming team gets you in the HOF? Really?

 

8. Rogers Hornsby - My idol as a hitter. However, he was a racist twit who obviously bet on baseball and skated because Landis didn't want another scandal. Universally hated everywhere he went.

 

9. Rabbit Maranville - In what bizarro world does Maranville get within shouting distance of the HOF? A guess he was a nice guy that picked up the tab on more than a few occasions, and played great defense. To me that doesn't get you in.

 

10. George Kell - "We don't have enough 3rd basemen in!" So what? Wait for Wade Boggs to retire. A ridiculous choice.

 

I won't even get started on the guys that the Veteran's Committee put in from the old Cardinals teams or the Negro League guys that were inducted en masse. Sure, they were all good players and didn't get a fair shake, but it seems like every guy that was pretty good for a decade got inducted. That I don't see.

 

They want to keep Barry Bonds out? Fine, let's clear out some others while we're at it. Who else should be booted out? Tabe, Rippa, I'm looking at you guys for suggestions...

[Kuetsar]

Numbers 4 and 5 are fine with me, as well as Yawkey, if he wasn't a racist fuck, the Sox could have had a line up of Mays, Aaron and Williams, and no fucking curse. If you don't have Cobb and Speaker in, you might as will burn the thing down. . .

[RIPPA]

This really isn't with much thought and I am avoiding the "Terrible Human Beings Shouldn't Be In" Category. I also really avoided the turn of the century guys since I can only rely on what historians tell me.

 

 

Phil Rizzuto

- OSJ already covered

 

Pee Wee Reese

- If I am kicking out Rizzuto, Reese is going to. My Mom will yell at me though. To be fair - did get screwed by missing 3 years due to WWII

 

Luis Aparicio

- I am assuming OSJ would have named him if he hadn't limited himself to 10 guys. SPEED~! GLOVE~!

 

Jim Bunning

- maybe if we included his deeds as author and politician. But the Vet Committee put him in and thus his 224 wins allows people to use that benchmark when arguing other shitty pitchers (which doubly hurts because its a terrible benchmark and stat).

 

Tony Perez

- It's a good thing you were friends with Joe Morgan. Plus, folks around here love to bitch about guys hanging around too long.

 

Jim Rice

- Roy White was better

 

Bill Mazeroski

- Good defense on a not well represented position but are we going to start rewarding guys for one famous HR. Bucky Dent? Joe Carter? Aaron Boone?

 

Bowie Kuhn

- just a warning for all the folks who hate Bud Selig and don't want him in the HOF. Bowie Fucking Kuhn is in which pretty much means Selig is a lock.

[OSJ]

This really isn't with much thought and I am avoiding the "Terrible Human Beings Shouldn't Be In" Category. I also really avoided the turn of the century guys since I can only rely on what historians tell me.

 

 

Phil Rizzuto

- OSJ already covered

 

Pee Wee Reese

- If I am kicking out Rizzuto, Reese is going to. My Mom will yell at me though. To be fair - did get screwed by missing 3 years due to WWII

 

Luis Aparicio

- I am assuming OSJ would have named him if he hadn't limited himself to 10 guys. SPEED~! GLOVE~!

 

Jim Bunning

- maybe if we included his deeds as author and politician. But the Vet Committee put him in and thus his 224 wins allows people to use that benchmark when arguing other shitty pitchers (which doubly hurts because its a terrible benchmark and stat).

 

Tony Perez

- It's a good thing you were friends with Joe Morgan. Plus, folks around here love to bitch about guys hanging around too long.

 

Jim Rice

- Roy White was better

 

Bill Mazeroski

- Good defense on a not well represented position but are we going to start rewarding guys for one famous HR. Bucky Dent? Joe Carter? Aaron Boone?

 

Bowie Kuhn

- just a warning for all the folks who hate Bud Selig and don't want him in the HOF. Bowie Fucking Kuhn is in which pretty much means Selig is a lock.

 

 

Nice!

 

Reese actually has the stats to merit inclusion if you look at total offense.

 

Luis Aparicio would have been number 12 or 13.

 

Tony Perez was one of my favorite players, but so was Matt Williams and he doesn't belong in either.

 

Jim Rice is my number 11. Laughable road stats. If he had played anywhere but Boston there wouldn't even be a discussion. Roy White WAS better and so was Dave Parker.

 

Bill Mazeroski - Good defense and one famous home run. Joe Carter does not belong in the same breath with Bucky Dent and Aaron Boone, while not quite a HOFr, Joe did hit a good many home runs over his career. Maz being in is as big a joke as Richie Ashburn (most hits in the decade of the 1950s), do  we see anyone arguing "most hits in the 70s", "most hits in the 1880s"?  What a total crock. Most of his hits were singles, put him in a dress, not the HOF.

 

Bowie Kuhn - A complete tool that paves the way for Selig. Seriously, isn't being Commish sort of an automatic lock?

 

Oh, I almost forgot to add my hate for Jim Bunning... 224 wins is a laughable benchmark. Milt fucking Pappas has more business in the HOF than Jim Bunning.  Oh yeah, being a senator from a red neck state doesn't count for much either.

 

Wow that's twenty out without any effort at all. I'm sure we can bring the hate and boot out a few more. ;-)

[OSJ]

Numbers 4 and 5 are fine with me, as well as Yawkey, if he wasn't a racist fuck, the Sox could have had a line up of Mays, Aaron and Williams, and no fucking curse. If you don't have Cobb and Speaker in, you might as will burn the thing down. . .

 

Hey, I'm not the one that put the character clause in that the writers are using to keep Bonds out. Cobb was a sociopath that beat up a crippled fan, is reputed to have murdered at least two people and assaulted countless others. Speaker and Hornsby routinely bet on baseball with each other. Granted, it probably impelled both guys to give t\it their all, but it was still betting on baseball. To that Speaker was in the KKK and Hornsby is the poster boy for arrogant prick that no one could abide being around.

[RIPPA]

I will say that I really should also say Ozzie Smith too in the good defense, one famous home run club.

 

I don't hate defense per se - I just don't think there is a good metric for it yet so if you don't have some bat to go with it, I don't know...

 

I saw plenty of Ozzie to know he was good. I can't say that about Maz so there is a little bias there.

[OSJ]

I will say that I really should also say Ozzie Smith too in the good defense, one famous home run club.

 

I don't hate defense per se - I just don't think there is a good metric for it yet so if you don't have some bat to go with it, I don't know...

 

I saw plenty of Ozzie to know he was good. I can't say that about Maz so there is a little bias there.

 

I saw plenty of Ozzie and recall he was also an offensive threat. Comparing him to Maz is laughable. If I need a guy to get on base and I have a choice of Ozzie or Maz to bat, I don't even have to think about it.

[RIPPA]

You are correct when you compare the two - and I wasn't trying to say Maz was better than Ozzie, just if I was being honest in what appeared to be my hate of defense with some of the guys I picked.

 

Of course - if I had to choose to get on-base I would hope to have some else to choose from other than Ozzie and Maz

[OSJ]

You are correct when you compare the two - and I wasn't trying to say Maz was better than Ozzie, just if I was being honest in what appeared to be my hate of defense with some of the guys I picked.

 

Of course - if I had to choose to get on-base I would hope to have some else to choose from other than Ozzie and Maz

 

 

Richie Sexson? ;-)

[Tabe]

Won't argue with most of OSJ's choices but Ty Cobb stays in my HOF.  Most of the stories about him are flat-out made up by his biographer Al Stump.  Stump was a conniving, lying fraud who deserves to rot in hell.

Guys I'd boot out:

Hack Wilson - I suppose he could be considered the Sandy Koufax of hitters in that he was only dominant for 5 years.  But really, he was a product of his era and simply doesn't belong.

Carl Yastrzemski - Playing 500 years in a big market while putting up .285/17/70 in a hitter's ballpark isn't good enough from a corner outfielder.  Had a good career but doesn't belong, 3400 hits or not.

Dennis Eckersley - Look at his career again.  The guy was a great reliever for 5 years.  We're not talking Mo Rivera here.  2 good years as a starter and a whole bunch of average years as a starter/reliever and a bunch of cruddy ones too.  

Richie Ashburn - Had a nice career and won a couple batting titles.  But do we really have a place in the HOF for outfielders with ZERO power that steal only 15 bases a year?  Nah.

Jim Bottomley - Congrats.  You won an MVP while leading the league in HRs and 3Bs in the same season.  Being friends with Frankie Frisch got you in and you don't belong.

Jack Chesbro - The pitching version of Roger Maris.  You had a nice career sandwiched around a record-setting season.  Yeah, that's not enough.

Candy Cummings - a 6-year career during which you probably didn't invent the curveball with which you're credited.  Yeah, you gots ta go.


Those guys would be a good start though I did also consider adding Jim Bunning, Luis Aparichio and Maz to the list.

[Tabe]

 

You are correct when you compare the two - and I wasn't trying to say Maz was better than Ozzie, just if I was being honest in what appeared to be my hate of defense with some of the guys I picked.

 

Of course - if I had to choose to get on-base I would hope to have some else to choose from other than Ozzie and Maz

 

 

Richie Sexson? ;-)

 

Career OBP:

 

Ozzie Smith: .337

Richie Sexson: .344

[SorceressKnight]

I've hinted it before if I make claims for the HOF, but:

 

Tinker, Evers, and Chance. At least two of the players there didn't have great stats, even for the 1900s, and the third was a fringe HOFer even by 1900s standards. One of them was actively mediocre. They weren't even a particularly deadly double-play combination in their day. The ONLY REASON those three players are in the Hall of Fame is because of the famous poem. Kick them out.

[Tabe]

I've hinted it before if I make claims for the HOF, but:

 

Tinker, Evers, and Chance. At least two of the players there didn't have great stats, even for the 1900s, and the third was a fringe HOFer even by 1900s standards. One of them was actively mediocre. They weren't even a particularly deadly double-play combination in their day. The ONLY REASON those three players are in the Hall of Fame is because of the famous poem. Kick them out.

This is a great pick and I'm pissed I didn't think of it myself.

[OSJ]

I've hinted it before if I make claims for the HOF, but:

 

Tinker, Evers, and Chance. At least two of the players there didn't have great stats, even for the 1900s, and the third was a fringe HOFer even by 1900s standards. One of them was actively mediocre. They weren't even a particularly deadly double-play combination in their day. The ONLY REASON those three players are in the Hall of Fame is because of the famous poem. Kick them out.

 

Great choice, I'm pissed I didn't list them myself. One of the three you could make an argument for, but that argument is pretty weak.

[OSJ]

Won't argue with most of OSJ's choices but Ty Cobb stays in my HOF.  Most of the stories about him are flat-out made up by his biographer Al Stump.  Stump was a conniving, lying fraud who deserves to rot in hell.

Guys I'd boot out:

Hack Wilson - I suppose he could be considered the Sandy Koufax of hitters in that he was only dominant for 5 years.  But really, he was a product of his era and simply doesn't belong.

Carl Yastrzemski - Playing 500 years in a big market while putting up .285/17/70 in a hitter's ballpark isn't good enough from a corner outfielder.  Had a good career but doesn't belong, 3400 hits or not.

Dennis Eckersley - Look at his career again.  The guy was a great reliever for 5 years.  We're not talking Mo Rivera here.  2 good years as a starter and a whole bunch of average years as a starter/reliever and a bunch of cruddy ones too.  

Richie Ashburn - Had a nice career and won a couple batting titles.  But do we really have a place in the HOF for outfielders with ZERO power that steal only 15 bases a year?  Nah.

Jim Bottomley - Congrats.  You won an MVP while leading the league in HRs and 3Bs in the same season.  Being friends with Frankie Frisch got you in and you don't belong.

Jack Chesbro - The pitching version of Roger Maris.  You had a nice career sandwiched around a record-setting season.  Yeah, that's not enough.

Candy Cummings - a 6-year career during which you probably didn't invent the curveball with which you're credited.  Yeah, you gots ta go.

Those guys would be a good start though I did also consider adding Jim Bunning, Luis Aparichio and Maz to the list.

 

Hack Wilson's numbers are as inflated as Chuck Klein's (another HOFr we can do without)

 

Yaz? Really? Are you trying to upset Red Sox Nation? I don't think he's anywhere near the mediocrity of some of the other choices, but he's definitely in the bottom 25% of players that should be in. 

 

Eck - Yeah strike out the strikeout prone Reggie Jackson on national TV and you're in... An interesting case, but shouldn't be in when real closers like Lee Smith are sitting outside.

 

Richie Ashburn - By all accounts a very nice man who hit lots of singles in a decade when his contemporaries hit lots of home runs. This is akin to putting Brett Butler in and Butler probably has a better case.

 

Sunny Jim Bottomley - A nice guy who insisted on posing for a new photo of himself in his Cards uniform for the 1962 Fleer Baseball Greats card despite being sixty-something and looking completely ridiculous. Likely paid Frankie Frisch's tab on more than one occasion.

 

Jack Chesbro - Belongs in the Hall of Amazing Single Seasons with Hack Wilson, George Foster, Roger Maris, and Dennis O'Neil.

 

Candy Cummings - Yeah, there are some marks for baseball legends (most of which are as carny as wrestling legends),he didn't invent the curve anymore than Roger Bresnahan invented protection for catchers. Oh, yeah... There's another guy that ought to be tossed out, the Duke of Tralee, my Irish ass.

 

Except for my childhood sympathy for the Red Sox, it appears that we are (as usual) in agreement. I'm glad you posted the OBP of Sexson and Smith, I would have lost a substantial amount of money on that as a bet... Not that .344 is anything to get excited about, but I didn't realize Ozzie was that weak.

[OSJ]

The Ty Cobb argument... While I can agree that Al Stump was an exaggerator at best and an out and out liar at worst, there's far too much documented psychotic behavior on Cobb's part to dismiss.

 

Fact: He did sharpen his spikes and slide high to intimidate opponents. I don't really have a problem with that and would probably have done so myself if I'd thought of it.

 

Fact: He did beat the crap out of a crippled fan who was heckling him.

 

Fact: He was a racist twit (you can say that he was a product of his era and place of birth, but there were a whole lot of southern players who haven't the track record of racism that Cobb has. Calling Babe Ruth the n-word was pretty well documented.

 

If we use the "character clause" to boot out Hornsby and Speaker for betting on games with each other and Hornsby's general douchenozzle persona and Speaker's KKK membership, then I don't see any argument for not kicking Cobb to the curb with them.

[Brian Fowler]

Screw all this, what thread do I campaign for Lou Whitaker in?

[Joe Lucia]

Here's one that might piss some people off, but whatever: Kirby Puckett. No longevity to speak of, kind of a middling peak, ended up being a bit of a shitty person after he retired, but got in on the first ballot, mainly because of the "tragic" end to his career. 

[OSJ]

Screw all this, what thread do I campaign for Lou Whitaker in?

 

The same thread where Tabe and I bitch about Alan Trammell not being in.

[OSJ]

Here's one that might piss some people off, but whatever: Kirby Puckett. No longevity to speak of, kind of a middling peak, ended up being a bit of a shitty person after he retired, but got in on the first ballot, mainly because of the "tragic" end to his career. 

 

Almost the Candy Cummings of hitters. They broke every rule imaginable to induct him because he was such a great ambassador for the game (and I'll admit, every time I saw him play it was like Griffey in the 90s, he looked like he was having the time of his life playing). Too bad he turned out to be such as douche. Gee, maybe there should be a five-year wait or something... Oh, I see....

[Tabe]

Screw all this, what thread do I campaign for Lou Whitaker in?

The same thread where Tabe and I bitch about Alan Trammell not being in.

Amen to that, brother.

[BobbyWhioux]

Well, if it's a matter of the character clause being a euphemism for cheating w.r.t. Bonds and Clemens, Gaylord Perry would have to be removed since his Fame derives wholly from his celebrated cheating.
 

Oh and I'm going to preemptively say throw Selig out since, as has been pointed out, they will put him in, and Fuck That Bullshit.

[Ryan]

He waits to greet you for eternity.

[OSJ]

Gaylord Perry is also a complete jackhole. I was at a show where he and George Foster were the guests. I spent about twenty minutes talking to George about hitting, the Big Red Machine, etc. and halfway through the conversation Perry signs a pic of himself, slides it over and says "That's ten bucks, not much for a Hall of Famer's autograph." I just looked at him and said, "Excuse me, but I'm having a conversation with Mr. Foster!" Bought a signed pic from George and went on my way. The smile on Foster's face was priceless as was the look on Perry's face.

[LethalStriker]

People who say Ozzie Smith isn't a HOF never watched him play live.  Defense is half of the game and if you're the best defensive player of all time at your position that probably makes you a HOFer.  Plus he became a solid enough of an offensive player as his career went on. 

 

2460 hits, 1257 runs, 580 SB, 15 all star games, 13 time gold glove winner, even won a Silver Slugger in 1987.  76.5 WAR for a guy who for the first half of his career was primarily a defense first player.