November 2023 Wrestling Talk

[SirSmUgly]

3 hours ago, JLowe said:

Oh, I meant all of them trying to be street. K-Dawg was the worst, but it was all cringe.

At least I believed that Konnan had a bunch of Cash Money and No Limit albums that he actually bought with intention to listen to the music and enjoy it.

But Hogan? Hogan? Unlike C-Murder, Hogan was absolutely not "down with his (or any) Ns" (as MTV titled the clean version of that song in the video, and let's all just assume that "Ns" stands for "neighbors"). 

Then again, Randy Savage was an old Midwestern white dude who (when put on a bell curve) did a reasonably okay celebrity rap album, so maybe I shouldn't assume. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Konnan was also SEVERAL years younger than Nash, Sting, Luger, Hogan, and bunch of other guys who were in the NWO save for Sean Waltman.

That said, a lot goes into that cause Nash was starting to get gray hairs in by 98/99 since he was already 40 and not that much younger than Hogan. However, he considered himself of another generation cause he's pop culture savvy and he went to see Hogan several years before he got into wrestling. In one respect it's weird to consider Hall his contemporary of the same generation when Hall was in wrestling a long time before Razor Ramon, but it makes sense cause their rise to stardom happened at almost the exact same time. 

I mean folks always thought Arn Anderson was older than he was but Arn considered Tully the veteran of the tag team cause he was. Yet, most would consider them of the same generation when technically they aren't.

A lot of this is just perception. Just by listening to a bunch of podcasts, a lot of these guys are way more well rounded than you think. However, just cause they look the way they do, you're not going to get that vibe.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Konnan was also SEVERAL years younger than Nash, Sting, Luger, Hogan, and bunch of other guys who were in the NWO save for Sean Waltman.

That said, a lot goes into that cause Nash was starting to get gray hairs in by 98/99 since he was already 40 and not that much younger than Hogan. However, he considered himself of another generation cause he's pop culture savvy and he went to see Hogan several years before he got into wrestling. In one respect it's weird to consider Hall his contemporary of the same generation when Hall was in wrestling a long time before Razor Ramon, but it makes sense cause their rise to stardom happened at almost the exact same time. 

I mean folks always thought Arn Anderson was older than he was but Arn considered Tully the veteran of the tag team cause he was. Yet, most would consider them of the same generation when technically they aren't.

A lot of this is just perception. Just by listening to a bunch of podcasts, a lot of these guys are way more well rounded than you think. However, just cause they look the way they do, you're not going to get that vibe.

And then you have Bret Hart in his WCW-era giant shorts and backwards baseball cap, and all I can remember thinking was "oh sweetie, who told you that was a good look".

[Cobra Commander]

Buff Bagwell didn’t turn 30 until 2000. Just imagine a world where the main wrestling company in the world doesn’t get tired of him after one night. He already had 10 years in WCW and could have had even more if WCW stuck around

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Buff Bagwell didn’t turn 30 until 2000. Just imagine a world where the main wrestling company in the world doesn’t get tired of him after one night. He already had 10 years in WCW and could have had even more if WCW stuck around

I think the issue is Buff kinda got complacent. Buff in 1997/1998 wasn't that much better than Marcus Alexander Bagwell not that long removed from being The Handsome Stranger in Global. That's an issue considering that he had the opportunity to work with a bunch of good to great workers over two or three different eras of WCW. He also didn't have a big injury of any sort until 1998. So he had six or seven years to get a certain level and never reached it.

His level of experience didn't match where you would expect him to be given that he had the look and other guys leaped him with half the push he had that same stretch.

I think he is one of those guys who decided to focus more on personality instead of his in ring acumen. So he got over but only to a certain point. IMO He didn't regress so much as he never progressed once he was out of the novice phase of his career.

[SirSmUgly]

32 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

And then you have Bret Hart in his WCW-era giant shorts and backwards baseball cap, and all I can remember thinking was "oh sweetie, who told you that was a good look".

You let this man wear his hockey jerseys and shorts, dammit, he's the G.O.A.T.

So what if he has the style of Kevin Smith? His in-ring execution is flawless.

[SirSmUgly]

Sorry for the double-post, but Buff was indeed a dreadful heel worker as a singles. You could hide him in a tag team as a heel, but not in singles. 

I do think there's something to fiery babyface Bagwell in the ring, but the guy was never a face again after he became Buff. I think if WCW turns him face after he comes back from that neck injury instead of teasing it and just having him be a heel instead, he would have been in a better place from an in-ring standpoint. 

[Cobra Commander]

Yeah they fumbled a few things in the Buff/Steiners sphere at the end of 1998

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

5 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

You let this man wear his hockey jerseys and shorts, dammit, he's the G.O.A.T.

So what if he has the style of Kevin Smith? His in-ring execution is flawless.

Now you're just encouraging a series of An Evening With Bret Hart college talk tours where he goes for four hour long tangents and reveals he once wrestled Prince - "he was a jam up guy" - but the footage is somewhere in the Paisley Park vaults never to be seen.

[SirSmUgly]

1 minute ago, Sparkleface said:

Now you're just encouraging a series of An Evening With Bret Hart college talk tours where he goes for four hour long tangents and reveals he once wrestled Prince - "he was a jam up guy" - but the footage is somewhere in the Paisley Park vaults never to be seen.

"...and so Vince Russo tells me that he wants me to wrestle a giant mechanical spider. And so, so, I'm at home because Goldberg, who couldn't wrestle y'know, recklessly ended my career, about a year later, and I turn on Nitro, and what do I see? Sting and Lex Luger wrestling Jeff Jarrett and a giant mechanical spider in the main event."

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Yeah they fumbled a few things in the Buff/Steiners sphere at the end of 1998

There is a great segment from a Nitro in March 1999 or thereabouts where the fans were behind him when he finally turned on Scott or Scott basically attacked him signifying the face turn. However, I think the time had passed already. Plus, I think folks were souring on the prospect of WCW pushing younger guys to the top.

[Cobra Commander]

The vignette of Scott Steiner talking about all the trophies he has that Rick doesn’t have from the summer of 98 was an amazing segment too.

Having watched Flair/Garvin from Starrcade 87 today, I initially fantasybooked Ronnie Garvin vs Gunther. Then I somehow thought “what if prime Ric Flair faced Low Ki” which would be an amazing clusterfuck of a match.

[Zimbra]

15 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

Now you're just encouraging a series of An Evening With Bret Hart college talk tours where he goes for four hour long tangents and reveals he once wrestled Prince - "he was a jam up guy" - but the footage is somewhere in the Paisley Park vaults never to be seen.

I had never considered any Bret Hart/Kevin Smith parallels before but now I wonder what else I'm missing.

[zendragon]

13 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

"...and so Vince Russo tells me that he wants me to wrestle a giant mechanical spider. And so, so, I'm at home because Goldberg, who couldn't wrestle y'know, recklessly ended my career, about a year later, and I turn on Nitro, and what do I see? Sting and Lex Luger wrestling Jeff Jarrett and a giant mechanical spider in the main event."

I know what you are talking about.

I've always felt that Buff Bagwell was kinda like Randy Orton is Randy never really figured it out

[Cobra Commander]

17 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

Now you're just encouraging a series of An Evening With Bret Hart college talk tours where he goes for four hour long tangents and reveals he once wrestled Prince - "he was a jam up guy" - but the footage is somewhere in the Paisley Park vaults never to be seen.

“Prince had his own version of Wrestlemania in 1993 with WWF wrestlers. I wrestled Prince. The semi-main event was Curt Hennig vs Bam Bam Bigelow. But it’s in Prince’s fault somewhere. Oh well”

[Elsalvajeloco]

42 minutes ago, zendragon said:

I know what you are talking about.

I've always felt that Buff Bagwell was kinda like Randy Orton is Randy never really figured it out

And decided to have half the work ethic.

Someone mentioned Buff in tag teams, but part of the issues though is they kept throwing has ass in tag teams and doing it when one imploded. Scorp and Bagwell break up cause Scorpio resents him for being a lesser worker and also Scorp fails a drug test. No problem, let's put him in a tag team with The Patriot and call it Stars and Stripes. That goes on for awhile before Del Wilkes decides to go back to Japan and do whatever. Okay, let's put him with a guy who has been doing good work in enhancement talent matches over the last good while in Scotty Riggs and go back to the male escort/dancer route. Fuck...how long are you going to hide him and match him with a better worker? Take the training wheels off and let him go on a TV title run or go for the US title. That's four to five years of hiding him when he should be trying to develop something past his look. Then, when he joins the NWO in late 1996, the group is so over that he doesn't really have to do anything. The only net positive was it allowed him to come out of his shell as a performer on the mic. However, it stunted his growth as a worker.

52 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

The vignette of Scott Steiner talking about all the trophies he has that Rick doesn’t have from the summer of 98 was an amazing segment too.

I just saw that rewatching stuff throughout 1998. It's the week before Halloween Havoc 1998. Yes, it is indeed amazing.

Never has one feud that went on as long had the ups and (mostly) downs as the Steiner vs. Steiner feud. Each week is a grab bag of either great or absolutely terrible because WCW is starting to falter in terms of creative momentum and the continuity is becoming nonexistent. I will say that Scott is always a part of the ups cause Rick is not a natural babyface. If Scott wasn't such a great heel, this would be a candidate for all time worst feud ever.

52 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Having watched Flair/Garvin from Starrcade 87 today, I initially fantasybooked Ronnie Garvin vs Gunther. Then I somehow thought “what if prime Ric Flair faced Low Ki” which would be an amazing clusterfuck of a match.

Remember in 1996 and maybe slightly before, they use to have him wrestling ANYONE on Nitro. Like for example, he has to wrestle still awkward babyface Eddie Guerrero and Ric has NO CLUE how to attack that. He is lost but they still have a good TV match. When he went back to WWE, somehow he did better cause I am safely assuming the agenting/producing of the matches was much better. However, you want to talk a styles clash....watch anytime they would put him with someone who wasn't like a Brad Armstrong, who was great and already had worked him before. You were going to see something that was totally spontaneous both for good and bad reasons.

[Cobra Commander]

21 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I will say that Scott is always a part of the ups cause Rick is not a natural babyface.

Which is kinda weird to consider after Rick spent like 9 years as a tag team babyface

But I guess a certain amount of Rick’s babyface appeal as a manchild doesn’t translate well to feuding with his younger brother

[Cobra Commander]

the other night, I realized that if David Crockett had stuck around on-screen for long enough, the segment where Jim Ross gives Rick Steiner tips for dating Robin Green would be a segment of David Crockett giving dating tips to Rick Steiner

Not sure which idea would have been better.

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Which is kinda weird to consider after Rick spent like 9 years as a tag team babyface

But I guess a certain amount of Rick’s babyface appeal as a manchild doesn’t translate well to feuding with his younger brother

The strange babbling thing doesn't work when you actually have to not come off as a real babyface. Doesn't help the Chucky thing was in the middle of this. 

He comes off an unsympathetic dumbass too much. That's okay in 1990-1992 but not in 1998 when babyfaces like Steve Austin are doing some Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote Super Genius shit to heels. Now when he attacks Scott, people go crazy so it's fine. When he has to talk for long periods of time, it falls off a cliff. 

[twiztor]

2 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

Then again, Randy Savage was an old Midwestern white dude who (when put on a bell curve) did a reasonably okay celebrity rap album, so maybe I shouldn't assume. 

there it is, folks. the best thing ever written about the "Be A Man" album. And i say that as someone who enjoys (parts of) the album, and also bought it the week it released. one of the 14k or whatever its sales ended up being. Also of relevant note, they just pressed this on vinyl for Record Store Day earlier this year. i did not buy this one.

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think [Buff Bagwell] is one of those guys who decided to focus more on personality instead of his in ring acumen. So he got over but only to a certain point. IMO He didn't regress so much as he never progressed once he was out of the novice phase of his career.

i think this nails it, completely. He felt his ring work was good enough (which it was, for his role as a midcard tag team with flashes at the top of the division), so he stopped trying to improve. Once the "Buff" character gave him the outlet, he took it and ran. Leaving his ring skills miles behind. 

[Cobra Commander]

The Buff Blockbuster was a cool looking move that maybe wasn't always logical but.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

the other night, I realized that if David Crockett had stuck around on-screen for long enough, the segment where Jim Ross gives Rick Steiner tips for dating Robin Green would be a segment of David Crockett giving dating tips to Rick Steiner

Not sure which idea would have been better.

That reminds me....in my 1994 rewatch Woman cuts a hell of a sinister promo after they trick Tommy Dreamer into believing Sandman was blinded by him (Dreamer) and cost him his career. Heyman likely produced her on it, but she does a great job with it.

I know it won't happen cause of reasons, but she should definitely go in the WWE Hall of Fame in Philly given the connection. She didn't grow up in the business like Babydoll or get schooled on it being adopted into the family like Luna Vachon. She also wasn't a trained wrestler. All she had was her husband was a creative mind at the time, and she had a natural aura that makes it work. WWE had several contests and couldn't find any female who kinda came close to that. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

As ill-advised as the look may have been, I can't hate on Bret's hockey jersey/jorts because they gave us that kick ass moment with Goldberg and the steel plate

[odessasteps]

Here’s a fun one …

what if alleged wrestling fan Prince had played at Wrestle Rock  86 in Minneapolis? 

[zendragon]

I kinda feel that Verne was the one person more out of touch with pop culture than Vince