SUMMER SECRET SANTO 2023~!

[SirSmUgly]

3 hours ago, Casey said:

Did you think I forgot about March Madness 2015? Huh? EMMA, REALLY?!

Take your punishment, sir.

 

 

(@The Natural I’ll watch your pick(s) tonight or tomorrow, I’m off work. I can’t remember those matches so I’m excited to dig into ‘em!)

Wow, making Matt suffer through a Seth Rollins match just because Emma had a far better year as a singles wrestler in 2015. I didn't know we were defying the Constitution of these United States and doling out cruel and unusual punishments now. 

(Seriously, I love the long-standing March Madness beef being used as a catalyst for your pick; you had me cracking up after I read this.)

[SirSmUgly]

 @Curt McGirt: In keeping with my choices being stuff I've seen that I thought needed more love, that might just be forgotten little gems, or simply matches that I think are fun TV bouts in particular, here I offer you a choice based around whether or not you feel okay with watching Chris Benoit matches.

Chris Benoit vs. Meng (Death Match, Slamboree '97)

Direct link if video doesn't load: (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dxlut)

OR

Johnny B. Badd vs. Eddy Guerrero (WCW Television Championship Match, Nitro, 13 November 1995)

Direct link if video doesn't load: (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3dvz6s)

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by SirSmUgly
The board struggle-posts embedded video, so direct links are added

[Curt McGirt]

Yeah it's being funky, I'll use the direct links. And I've got no problem doing both.

[Curt McGirt]

Alright, for you Monsieur Smellsalot, I decided to give a passle of Terry Funk, because why not. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx2l6lfG8kQ&ab_channel=MLW Funk vs. Lawler in MLW. Looks like this is a full episode so you can just skip ahead, also looks a little angle-fied so you might wanna watch the connective tissue as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRi3a0cwxdM&ab_channel=ExtremePOP Funk vs. Cactus in ECW. You can cue up Link Wray's "I'm Branded" to this one. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsoSUySRCBA&ab_channel=日テレプロレス中継アーカイ部【公式】 Funks vs. Hansen/Gordy in AJPW. The 1983 first retirement match with "Forever!"

You can pick one or do two or do all, I couldn't decide, and am not sure if I've seen all of each of them either so I'm gonna do some watching too. 

[Curt McGirt]

4 hours ago, Matt D said:

@Casey How do you feel about this?

I was going to give you an Aoyagi vs Kurisu match but I don't see it online. This is ten minutes and Phil has described it as a "hurricane of violence."

 

This is my upload 

EDIT: FROM DEAN'S OG LINK. So this is some in-the-family history here. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Curt McGirt

[Matt D]

I'm 14 minutes into this match and I hate it so much.

[John E. Dynamite]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

I'm 14 minutes into this match and I hate it so much.

But it's WHOA! wrestling. They make the crowd say "WHOA!". There are lights on the cameras that let them know which camera is on so they can make faces. 

I used to love that the modern WWE main event house style plays so entirely toward the hard cam, assuming that the people that payed insane prices for sign-zone seats have to suffer for their arrogance. But the more I think about it, the more I realize it just means they have less wrestling to react to, which leaves them more energy to raise and wave around their podcast shills and modified sitcom punchlines.

[The Natural]

12 hours ago, porksweats said:

Mind throwing me a good brawl? It can be be blood and guts heavy. Anything specific for you? 

Don't mind at all. What you seen so I don't replicate? Only specific thing right now I can think of is YouTube only please. My tablet doesn't like DailyMotion. More like StopMotion.

Edited September 3, 2023 by The Natural

[The Natural]

9 hours ago, Matt D said:

I'm 14 minutes into this match and I hate it so much.

Shield Seth is most tolerable Seth. SummerSlam 2015 had two great matches, Rollins vs. Cena was not one of them. The Undertaker vs. Brock Lesnar was a MOTYC and Kevin Owens vs. Cesaro. 

[Casey]

Opinions on him vary wildly, obviously. That’s my favorite Rollins (singles) match by a huge margin.

But this wasn’t about giving @Matt D a good match. It was about revenge and punishment!

[Octopus]

Kawada vs Hashimoto, gifted by @Curt McGirt

Hot dog, I’m typing this right after finishing and I’m shocked by the towel finish. I did not see this coming.

 I’m going to write this out of order a bit. Normally I will formulate the post a little more and write either in a linear fashion or breakdown by participants. This time I’ll do immediate reactions right after finishing.

I started this the other day but I was so tired, I couldn’t do it. Redid it today and I’m glad. Very much encompasses what I love to look for in a wrestling match. The struggle and earned moments, characters being visible through their actions, and strikes that make slap or thud sounds. This hit those notes beautifully.

Kawada is the champ, super karate kicks as always and often vulnerable. Hashimoto is much stronger and a harder striker which plays into Kawada’s vulnerability. But he has a target on his wrapped up shoulder.

This match writes itself! Kawada and Hashimoto strike the fuck out of each other. Hashimoto is stronger and tries to take out Toshiaki’s leg. But Kawada is too stubborn to change his strongest weapon. This is hard to pull off, but Kawada makes it work by still using his violent kicks while limping and falling over. There is a moment of repeating strikes to a dizzying Hashimoto. They both fall over but Hashimoto gets up and kicks Kawada in the face. This is paralleled soon after with a large oak tree like fall of Hashimoto going down. It felt so earned.

Kawada’s most successful offense was going after the shoulder. Really turns the tide when Hashimoto is wincing in pain even after successfully giving a beautiful brain buster/ Suplex. Kawada can’t be put down. After more grounding and submissions, the towel is thrown in. Kawada is victorious.

Thanks Curt, it was up my alley.

———

@John E. Dynamite, what type of match do you want to get this week?

Send me any one of your favorites or a match you’re passionate about.

 

[Curt McGirt]

Chris Benoit vs Meng (Death Match*) Slamboree '97

(* The fuck?!)

Okay so I'm not even gonna question why this is a "death match", I'm just gonna say "It's WCW" and leave it at that. Or, I was, but Brain says this is part of the Sullivan vs. Benoit angle cuz THE MONSTER MENG~! (TM DEAN) is in the Dungeon. Nancy is of course part of this whole angle and is with Benoit so everything is super uncomfortable from the jump. Dusty posits that the ref might only be there to "keepin' yo aahm in shape by countin'", haha. Meng blasts Chris with a Steiner-esque belly to belly overhead, but Chris responds with a German and MENG SELLS! My, this IS interesting. Meng lays in some mega chops and nasty back elbows; Benoit responds with some near neck-high chops but chops no hurt Meng who just pie-faces him. The whole crowd then stands up for Jacqueline coming out. Did Jackie get a nose job in the 'E? She looks different than I remember. A half-crab makes you remember why we loved Benoit so much because he sells like a motherfucker. Penzer is dumb and puts a count on him which Brain immediately shits on. Tony actually tries to cover for him during a second count by saying he's asking him if Benoit wants to give up; meanwhile we are watching him count to Benoit in close-up  Then he does a rope break and the announce team are totally confused. Nancy is apoplectic outside and her screams are pretty uncomfortable too. Meng is just a destroyer, kicking Benoit right in the jaw several times, but eats some big Germans. Unfortunately Benoit drops from the top for the headbutt right into the Tongan Death Grip, and boy Tonga has that sunk in right deep in the neck meat. Chris goes out and Meng limps off. Hey, this is probably the best match that Tonga Tonga, from Tonga, is in that you are gonna get. 

Eddie Guerrero vs Johnny B. Badd, WCW Monday Nitro 13.11.1995

Hey hey! I've never seen a Marc Mero match where he was doing Cosplay Little Richard, so this is a first. His nifty sparkly black, white 'n' silver robe has spiderwebs and "HAVE A BADD DAY" splayed out across it; he's also carrying (along with the TV title) Johnny B. Badd frisbees that he throws into the crowd? Alrighty then. This is pre-heel Eddie so I expect a lot of technical fireworks. They trade a shitload of rollups and pinfalls, Eddie bounces up to and off the top rope for a beautiful rana, and Mero does a flip dive to the floor until he socks Guerrero with a right and all the sudden they start brawling. It's a brief moment however and they trade off big moves -- a Tombstone and a tornado DDT -- for pinfalls as the 10 minute time limit runs out, which has them get chippy at each other again before a handshake and hug. Solid TV match. Johnny was big-time over with this crowd, way more than I ever saw Mero in the WWF. I think Eddie was dumbing things down a bit because we know what he can really pull off, but working to Mero's level was a smart move and created a solid little piece of work. 

The contrast in having Voldemort and Guerrero both as yin/yangs in this pair of matches isn't lost on me. I don't have a problem watching Benoit but YMMV, especially with Nancy present. I prefer that match though both are good. You also get more WCW stupidity in the Badd match with Bobby having paid somebody off for something and Mongo is there yacking about it and yadda yadda yadda. Like I said above: It's WCW.

[Curt McGirt]

I also believe Jackie had some, ahem, other work done in the 'E judging from this appearance. But that's New York for you, gotta keep up with the Maxim readers. 

[SirSmUgly]

Let’s jump in and watch the Funker:

Terry Funk vs. Jerry Lawler (MLW Underground #21)

• Lawler cuts a pretty solid promo on Funk before this match, but Funk cuts a promo response in which he Lawler a “pervert” with a “Bob Barker hair transplant and […] facelift" and generally just SHITS on this dude. Hahahahaha!

 

• I mean, Funk went IN on Lawler, but I guess when you beat the shit out of each other in a classic Empty Arena match, that’s what’s going to happen.

 

• Perfectly enough, in his promo, Lawler did some shilling for WrestleMania and then in the follow-up promo, Funk was like YOU’LL DO AND SHILL ANYTHING FOR A DOLLAR, YOU MONEY-GRUBBING ASSHOLE.

 

• I caught a bit of Sonjay Dutt cutting a promo before jumping forward, and boy, the comparison of his promo quality to what came before him is quite the juxtaposition even beyond what anyone with common sense would expect.

 

• These are two of the best “old guy well past their physical peak” workers ever, so this should be at least pretty good.

 

• Lawler heels it up on the house mic before the match starts. Funk responds. Well, the crowd is hot for it!

 

• We don’t get to see the extent of Lawler’s stalling; we cut to Funk throwing some nice right hands.

 

• Funk immediately hits a piledriver on the floor, assuming that we haven’t had much action clipped out before this, so yeah, that’s an immediate escalation. Funk hits a second after Lawler tries to struggle out of it.

 

• Simon Diamond randomly (from my perspective, I didn’t see the weekly angle) comes out and gives Lawler a barbed wire coil while the ref moves Funk away; Lawler punches Funk with it and Funk bleeds.

 

• Lawler digs into Funk’s head with the wire; we’re clipped again and Terry Funk is up and hitting Lawler with Stone Cold Stunners and neckbreakers, but only gets two. This whole thing seems like nonsense of the highest order, and I can’t tell how much of that is because it’s clipped and how much of that is because it’s just dumb.

 

• Lawler trips Funk, puts his feet on the ropes for leverage, and gets three. Simon Diamond and C.W. Anderson run down and put the boots to Funk. I’m not sure what I watched there, but I didn't get a good enough picture of this match because of its clipped nature. Diamond and Anderson are mad that Lawler tried to win the match and didn’t beat the shit out of Funk some more, so they don’t pay Lawler the promised bounty for his work.

 

• There’s like a whole angle going on here with Steve Corino and pals trying to put Funk out of wrestling that I’m not interested enough in to go back and watch some of the other MLW stuff that explains it. Anyway, Lawler beats up the MLW Tag Champs Anderson and Diamond until Steve Corino runs down in a mask and helps turn the tide.

 

• The clipped version of this match was a dud, but the pre-match promos ruled!

Terry Funk vs. Cactus Jack (ECW Hostile City Showdown, 15 April 1995)

• I used to think that ECW was the premier massive negative influence on modern wrestling. I was wrong. PWG is actually the worst thing to ever happen to pro wrestling stateside by a fair distance. I digress; the point of this opening remark is that I’ve re-watched bits and bobs of ECW over the past couple years, and when you get past the general tawdriness of the company, enough of the fast-paced or excessively violent stuff is done by workers who I think are top level that the work itself ages surprisingly well (unlike pretty much any of PWG).

 

• Cactus is disinterested in starting the match in the ring. He wants to fight in the stands. Funk’s shirt declares that he wants someone to stick a cactus into the surface of his ass or even maybe lodge one within his anal cavity. Commas matter, people.

 

• So yeah, these two have a garbage brawl in the stands, but it ages pretty well because these two are great at garbage brawls. The first garbage brawl I ever saw as a kid was Funk/Flair from WrestleWar ’89 on VHS (I’d seen other brawls, of course, but nothing that had that modern-feeling “wandering around using plundah” approach), and it left a great impression on me. I still think it’s one of the four or five best garbage brawls ever and that Flair’s best use is in a plundah-filled punch-fest over any other type of match.

 

• I digress again. Cactus whiffs on dives and both guys hit each other with random items given to them from the members of the crowd. That visual never gets old, by the way, of wrestlers just grabbing whatever someone’s holding out to them and swinging it wildly.

 

• This match is something you’ve all seen a hundred times before, but it’s elevated because these guys know how to sell damage and exhaustion at a level that few wrestlers ever get to.

 

• Funk suplexes a table onto Cactus while Cactus is stranded on the top rope, which is a cool spot.

 

• These ECW crowds were full of assholes (and I assume some very fine people), but at least they deeply care about every match they’re watching.

 

• Look, one wrestler breaking a beer bottle over another wrestler’s head will always be gnarly as fuck.

 

• Mikey Whipwreck runs in and ends up taking a great-looking bump over the rail. Hack Meyers takes a less great-looking bump over the rail, too.

 

• All this blood and plundah, and Terry Funk tries to get a win with a spinning toehold. That is NONSENSE, but I kinda love it. Cactus hits a small package out of that for two, then hits two DDTs. The first one only gets two because Sandman runs in with a cane, but the second one does get three after Cactus dispatches of Sandman.

 

• This match was pretty stupid! I don’t say that as a pejorative, either. Sandman jumps back in and canes Cactus and pours lighter fluid on him; then Funk recovers enough to go get a flaming branding iron and singe Cactus with it. I mean, this visual is bananas. This was entertainingly absurd, and the crowd chants E-C-DUBYA appropriately.

 

• This is the third Secret Santo match in a row that I’ve had to listen to Joey Styles on commentary. What’s next? Watching Seth Rollins, Young Bucks, or Kenny Omega matches? Writing about AEW content? May the good LORD in heaven protect me from such evil.

Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr. vs. Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy (All Japan Pro Wrestling, 31 August 1983)

• I have talked before about my bafflement with AJPW’s house style, especially the tag matches. They always seem to have at least one of Stan Hansen or Bruiser Brody in them, and I always feel like those matches have a bunch of dudes just ignoring wrestling moves or the concept of selling even a tiny bit. I may have grown up on too steady a diet of southern tags to adjust to the All Japan tag style.

 

• I also wonder how I’ll feel about this because some of the only AJPW I’ve ever enjoyed has been either of the Funks. It’s the Funks, Horst Hoffman, Gordy, Dr. Death, Misawa, and Kobashi, and after that, I’m usually out. I’m probably forgetting some juniors whom I like, but yeah.

 

• I am ashamed to say this, but I don’t even enjoy Stan Hansen. I know, I know. I liked the Andre match, but something about Hansen in both his AJPW and his WCW work has just not ever clicked with me.  

 

• But yeah, this match has three of the four people whose work in AJPW I have enjoyed immensely, so we’ll see. I do like that Gordy and Hansen do the typical “jump the faces while streamers are everywhere” spot. That spot rules.

 

• When the match gets into the ring, Terry does whatever he can to persevere immediately. He tries desperately to dodge Hansen, then to out-strike Hansen, and then finally to endure Hansen. He does the latter, makes his way to Dory, and with Dory’s help, is able to get control of the match for a bit as a reward.

 

• I have a bit of a hard time believing that Dory’s going to stalemate a shoulderblock with a giant like Terry Gordy, but yeah, okay.

 

• Funk is very active on the outside while Dory plays FIP. Speaking of, I can identify a structure in the match (not to say there isn’t one in these AJPW tags usually, just that I can’t identify a clear one from my perspective), and so this is pretty good. The crowd is hot for it, which helps immensely.

 

• Dory gets the hot tag and here, Hansen and Terry do a cool thing – Hansen’s on Terry and punches the hell out of him, but the “hot” part of this hot tag is that Terry just endures it and punches right back to even things up rather than to dominate control. It’s not a typical hot tag where the heels both feed the face and pinball around, but it’s a cool variation considering Hansen’s level of toughness.

 

• Funk starts bleeding for the second out of three matches (I think Cactus was the one bleeding in the ECW match) as Hansen works Terry’s knee. I’m somewhat surprised by this sudden approach, but Gordy cheats on the outside to do more damage to it, so it works within the match alright.

 

• The heels now isolate Terry and do a pretty fun job with this part of the match.

 

• Gordy tries to show Terry up with a spinning toehold, but Terry’s not having any of that shit. He fights out of it and eventually gets a hot tag to Dory. Dory, who looks creakier than Terry in ECW did (and about as creaky as Terry in MLW), hits some dropkicks before getting his house afire put out.

 

• The heels just liberally cheat throughout this thing in clear view of the ref, who does not give a fuck. The match breaks down and the ref is just like, I’MMA YELL AT Y’ALL FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES, BUT I REFUSE TO DO ANY MORE THAN THAT.

 

• Gordy whiffs on a splash attempt and Terry goes up top and quickly hits Gordy with a diving sunset flip that gets three. Of course, Hansen has dispatched Dory outside and has to run back in and destroy Terry and a few young boys before about twelve of them finally hold him back.

 

• The Terrys were great in this, Dory was fine, and Hansen was pretty good in spots. How everyone feels about Hansen, I feel about Terry Gordy. That guy Gordy fucking RULES at pro wrestling.

 

• This is the famous Terry Funk spot where he’s yelling ICHIBAN and then FOREVER about five hundred times, and yeah, it’s iconic.

Thanks for these matches, Curt! I had fun watching each of them, though I wish the Funk/Lawler one wasn’t clipped. I don’t think I’d need to know anything about the angle if the full match were up because I trust those two old dudes to work a good match throughout that doesn’t need anything more than the opening promos and the match itself to be worth watching.

[porksweats]

On 9/3/2023 at 5:57 AM, The Natural said:

Don't mind at all. What you seen so I don't replicate? Only specific thing right now I can think of is YouTube only please. My tablet doesn't like DailyMotion. More like StopMotion.

Can't seem to get the board to be not secure so my post will embed, but here's something nice for your Santo pick. Bryan Danielson vs Arik Cannon in IWA MS 2004!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJzJoxBVS-c&ab_channel=F1RSTWRESTLING

And my only request is something from this past decade (2010's - on. I'm sure you won't pull something I've seen recently with that criteria!)

[The Natural]

20 hours ago, porksweats said:

Can't seem to get the board to be not secure so my post will embed, but here's something nice for your Santo pick. Bryan Danielson vs Arik Cannon in IWA MS 2004!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJzJoxBVS-c&ab_channel=F1RSTWRESTLING

And my only request is something from this past decade (2010's - on. I'm sure you won't pull something I've seen recently with that criteria!)

Thank you for my match, that's a new Bryan Danielson match for me. Thank you for your request. I'll think on and get two matches ASAP.

[SirSmUgly]

Lucha!

Blue Panther vs. Villano V (Mask vs. Mask Match), CMLL 75^th Anniversary, 19 September 2008

• I always think to myself that with a mask vs. mask match, I’ll be missing out on all the hatred that led us to this point, so at least Blue Panther rushes Villano V before anyone is ready for the match to start to give me an idea of what the hatred must be like.

 

• Thing I like: The wrestlers going for early flash pins because even if they hate each other, they hate the idea of losing their mask even more.

 

• Thing I don’t like: This referee’s positioning and super-slow count.

 

• Villano V just kills this man Blue Panther with a vertical suplex on what looks to be one of the hardest floors this side of the Irish McNeil’s Boys Club.

 

• Unless you’re Konnan wrestling Rey Misterio Jr. in WCW, going for the babyface’s mask early almost certainly guarantees that you’ll be losing your mask at the end of the night. Bad strategy, Villano V. (Editor's note: I guess Villano V learned some mask-related magic from Konnan in the WCW backstage area!)

 

• I think a cool feature of this match is how it vacillates between two guys trying t murder each other and two dudes trying to get small packages so they can sneak out of there with a win. Panther just tried to spear the shit out of Villano with a suicide dive. He almost does, considering the huge blotch of blood that spreads on the side of Villano’s head after Villano is knocked backward onto a chair leg. Gross! And awesome.

 

• On commentary, I hear the phrases “the devil’s cauldron” and “thirty years,” and boy, do I wish I had the Spanish to understand the rest of that sentence.

 

• So, Blue Panther’s lost his mask after Perro Aguayo Jr. interferes, and Villano V gets the pinfall off that distraction with a small package. They contest the second fall almost immediately after the first ends. The ring lady comes down with a sign and has to retreat halfway because Villano’s beating the fuck out of a defenseless, maskless Panther in the middle of the ramp. I mean, that was a great visual.

 

• Panther finally has a replacement mask, but he’s in deep trouble because he’s had to take a beating since he was covering his face until he got said replacement mask. Villano gets close on a two count, then both men fight over a high-angled Boston Crab by punching the crap out of each other.

 

• These 2.9s that Panther is barely kicking out of would be more effective if the ref didn’t take so long to slap the mat on his count.

 

• Panther finally gets out of trouble and goes at Villano V’s mask, which is a reasonable strategy. The shithead ref, who has let Villano V get away with this, is real antsy about Panther getting his revenge. So, Panther gets the mask off and Villano covers his face with a towel and leaves. I’m not entirely sure what the fuck is happening or if that counted as a fall, I believe one of the commentators calls Villano an ugly motherfucker, or something like that (or maybe he’s talking about Villano III, now that I look back at Mr. Dynamite’s original post with this match link).

 

• Look, as someone who watches like one CMLL match every year or two, I’m obviouly not entirely used to the house style, but it seems like you can get a fall by ripping a dude’s mask off along with getting a pinfall. Or maybe the mask-ripping is a DQ? I’m not sure about that. So there’s a lot of consternation during fall three, but I can’t tell why – being a monolingual person SUCKS, and I really need to power through and learn a second language even though I’m an old man.

 

• Panther suicide dives again and drives Villano into the laps of some people in the front row. Then he does it again! This is some fuckery.

 

• So, these fellas trade two-counts, and I’m going to be honest, I’m assuming that Blue Panther is winning this. I don’t watch lucha, but I know Blue Panther and I know his iconic mask, and probably I’m also a dopey ignorant American who mostly knows Villano V as the guy who jobbed to like one move in fifteen seconds after doing a switcheroo with Villano IV on Nitro. Villano V is the guy who Tony S. and Bobby H. clowned on commentary during multiman luchador matches before ignoring them to talk about the latest escapades of the nWo. I thought I knew the winner of this match going in.

 

• But no! Villano has been trying flash pinfalls all night, and that strategy isn’t some bullshit strategy. It pays off because, even if Panther kicks out of the first five or six attempts, the seventh one just might surprise him. In fact, it does, and Villano takes the third and deciding fall. Panther has to unmask. Then these dudes shake hands and exalt one another.

 

• That was a match in which, not being used to CMLL’s house style, not knowing a lot about the feud, and not being able to understand the language of the commentary team didn’t matter at all. Endlessly entertaining stuff.

[The Natural]

On 9/2/2023 at 6:50 PM, The Natural said:

Anything in particular, @porksweats? Rather ask for preferences than pick something you unintentionally wouldn't like.

 

On 9/2/2023 at 10:17 PM, porksweats said:

Mind throwing me a good brawl? It can be be blood and guts heavy. Anything specific for you? 

 

On 9/5/2023 at 8:22 PM, porksweats said:

Can't seem to get the board to be not secure so my post will embed, but here's something nice for your Santo pick. Bryan Danielson vs Arik Cannon in IWA MS 2004!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJzJoxBVS-c&ab_channel=F1RSTWRESTLING

And my only request is something from this past decade (2010's - on. I'm sure you won't pull something I've seen recently with that criteria!)

Thank you for my match, porksweats.

I have two brawls for you. The first is Sasha Banks vs. Charlotte Flair from WWE RAW, 28th November 2016. It's the best Banks/Flair match, one of Banks' best ever matches and Charlotte's best match:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymzi9uDzFMA&t=18s&pp=ygUzc2FzaGEgYmFua3MgdnMgY2hhcmxvdHRlIGZsYWlyIGZhbGxzIGNvdW50IGFueXdoZXJl

The second is Trent/Chuck Taylor vs. Santana/Ortiz from AEW Dynamite, 16th September 2020:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-mdZB7oOi3k&pp=ygUTYWV3IHBhcmtpbmcgbG90IHdhcg%3D%3D

Paul xxx.

Edited September 7, 2023 by The Natural

[John E. Dynamite]

7 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

Lucha!

Blue Panther vs. Villano V (Mask vs. Mask Match), CMLL 75^th Anniversary, 19 September 2008

• I always think to myself that with a mask vs. mask match, I’ll be missing out on all the hatred that led us to this point, so at least Blue Panther rushes Villano V before anyone is ready for the match to start to give me an idea of what the hatred must be like.

 

• Thing I like: The wrestlers going for early flash pins because even if they hate each other, they hate the idea of losing their mask even more.

 

• Thing I don’t like: This referee’s positioning and super-slow count.

 

• Villano V just kills this man Blue Panther with a vertical suplex on what looks to be one of the hardest floors this side of the Irish McNeil’s Boys Club.

 

• Unless you’re Konnan wrestling Rey Misterio Jr. in WCW, going for the babyface’s mask early almost certainly guarantees that you’ll be losing your mask at the end of the night. Bad strategy, Villano V. (Editor's note: I guess Villano V learned some mask-related magic from Konnan in the WCW backstage area!)

 

• I think a cool feature of this match is how it vacillates between two guys trying t murder each other and two dudes trying to get small packages so they can sneak out of there with a win. Panther just tried to spear the shit out of Villano with a suicide dive. He almost does, considering the huge blotch of blood that spreads on the side of Villano’s head after Villano is knocked backward onto a chair leg. Gross! And awesome.

 

• On commentary, I hear the phrases “the devil’s cauldron” and “thirty years,” and boy, do I wish I had the Spanish to understand the rest of that sentence.

 

• So, Blue Panther’s lost his mask after Perro Aguayo Jr. interferes, and Villano V gets the pinfall off that distraction with a small package. They contest the second fall almost immediately after the first ends. The ring lady comes down with a sign and has to retreat halfway because Villano’s beating the fuck out of a defenseless, maskless Panther in the middle of the ramp. I mean, that was a great visual.

 

• Panther finally has a replacement mask, but he’s in deep trouble because he’s had to take a beating since he was covering his face until he got said replacement mask. Villano gets close on a two count, then both men fight over a high-angled Boston Crab by punching the crap out of each other.

 

• These 2.9s that Panther is barely kicking out of would be more effective if the ref didn’t take so long to slap the mat on his count.

 

• Panther finally gets out of trouble and goes at Villano V’s mask, which is a reasonable strategy. The shithead ref, who has let Villano V get away with this, is real antsy about Panther getting his revenge. So, Panther gets the mask off and Villano covers his face with a towel and leaves. I’m not entirely sure what the fuck is happening or if that counted as a fall, I believe one of the commentators calls Villano an ugly motherfucker, or something like that (or maybe he’s talking about Villano III, now that I look back at Mr. Dynamite’s original post with this match link).

 

• Look, as someone who watches like one CMLL match every year or two, I’m obviouly not entirely used to the house style, but it seems like you can get a fall by ripping a dude’s mask off along with getting a pinfall. Or maybe the mask-ripping is a DQ? I’m not sure about that. So there’s a lot of consternation during fall three, but I can’t tell why – being a monolingual person SUCKS, and I really need to power through and learn a second language even though I’m an old man.

 

• Panther suicide dives again and drives Villano into the laps of some people in the front row. Then he does it again! This is some fuckery.

 

• So, these fellas trade two-counts, and I’m going to be honest, I’m assuming that Blue Panther is winning this. I don’t watch lucha, but I know Blue Panther and I know his iconic mask, and probably I’m also a dopey ignorant American who mostly knows Villano V as the guy who jobbed to like one move in fifteen seconds after doing a switcheroo with Villano IV on Nitro. Villano V is the guy who Tony S. and Bobby H. clowned on commentary during multiman luchador matches before ignoring them to talk about the latest escapades of the nWo. I thought I knew the winner of this match going in.

 

• But no! Villano has been trying flash pinfalls all night, and that strategy isn’t some bullshit strategy. It pays off because, even if Panther kicks out of the first five or six attempts, the seventh one just might surprise him. In fact, it does, and Villano takes the third and deciding fall. Panther has to unmask. Then these dudes shake hands and exalt one another.

 

• That was a match in which, not being used to CMLL’s house style, not knowing a lot about the feud, and not being able to understand the language of the commentary team didn’t matter at all. Endlessly entertaining stuff.

Mask ripping is legal, mask removal is an instant DQ. In the second fall, Panther is tearing at Villano's mask, but Perrito had soaked it in water in between falls (ostensibly to treat his cut, but...). If you watch closely, Villano subtley pops the bottom of his own mask above his chin so Panther accidentally removes it, losing the fall.

The result of that match is one of the biggest upsets in wrestling history, for context's sake.

I wrote up Malenko vs. Syxx and didn't follow my own advice with a Google Docs backup, losing the whole write-up last night when the board decided to mix up "Sumbit Reply" with "Log Out For No Reason". So yeah, it's on the way.

Edited September 7, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Curt McGirt]

I think Blue Panther/Villano was the first legit lucha match I ever saw that took place in Mexico, aside from Los Gringos Locos vs. Santito/Octagon, and definitely my first mask match. You could definitely do worse! A question though: Between the two, is Atlantis/Villano III better? 

[SirSmUgly]

10 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Mask ripping is legal, mask removal is an instant DQ. In the second fall, Panther is tearing at Villano's mask, but Perrito had soaked it in water in between falls (ostensibly to treat his cut, but...). If you watch closely, Villano subtley pops the bottom of his own mask above his chin so Panther accidentally removes it, losing the fall.

Ah, that's what you meant by the subtle action leading to a fall. I thought you were referring to the end of the first fall and the interference that led to the finish.

That's really good work, wow. I need to go back and look at that second fall again.

This match was really good, lots of intensity, a hot crowd, and it was packed with stuff, but all of it was important.

I can see now that the mask thing is sort of analogous to a heel baiting a face by doing something illegal to lose a fall, but winning the war because now he's set the babyface in a mindset of revenge. Ripping the mask off and sacrificing the first fall set Villano V up for the rest of the match. He baited Blue Panther into trying for revenge, which a) led directly to the second fall when Villano unlatched his mask after Panther went crazy and focused on ripping at it, and b) directly to the third fall when one of those sudden small package attempts caught an enranged and unfocused Panther out. 

Wow, top-level psychology there. You can piece together Villano V's gameplan, and it ended up working in the narrative of the match. Very cool match; I'm glad to have seen it! 

[Curt McGirt]

Here is Pete reviewing Atlantis/Villano III. It's pretty fucking choice. 

Quote

MASCARA CONTRA MASCARA, A UNA CAIDA:  VILLANO III vs. ATLANTIS
This is the match the Empresa built to for something like 18 months, and the crowd is about as stoked as you might expect... the heat is at a fever pitch before the festivities even start, as Atlantis wants no part of Babe Richard reffing this match.  They go back and forth for several minutes before commissioner Felipe Ham Lee and V-3 himself convince Richard to leave and Rafael El Maya comes out to officiate instead.  First few minutes consist of straight matwork... then V-3 says "fuck it," shreds Atlantis' mask, clotheslines him to the floor and hits him with a Tope Suicida '36!  Their heads collide on the spot and both guys whip out the blade for full effect, Atlantis to the point where the ring doctor hustles down from the back and teases stopping the match due to Atlantis' hideous bloodloss.  Both guys brawl away on the apron until Atlantis tries to suplex V-3 in, but V-3 rolls him up for the first near-fall and the crowd is already screaming since it's a one-fall match.  Atlantis' face is already a gruesome mess 5 minutes in as V-3 starts to dominate the affair with various submission holds including a tripped-out abdominal stretch/ hammerlock combo; he then drops down into a pinning move, and you can hear the individual shrieks in the crowd as Maya counts 2 before Atlantis slips out.  V-3 follows with a MutaLock before Atlantis slips out and rolls him up for 2, but the crowd reactions are interesting in that there's lots more people booing Atlantis than you might expect.  Before long the match is going back and forth with endless near-falls on both sides, and the crowd is at a froth; there's this great shot of Zumbido, O'Borman and Shocker (w/lady friend) watching things from the back while the two maestros go at it in-ring.  Atlantis starts to get the better of things as he ejects V-3, fakes a tope, climbs up top and blasts V-3 with a huge plancha, which can't have been pleasant on those knees of his.  In-ring, Atlantis tries for a clothesline but V-3 grabs the arm and slaps on a TEXTBOOK octopus hold.  Atlantis slips out and slaps on this weird pinning combo that V-3 is doing the Death Struggle to bridge out of, and instantly a huge "Villano, Villano" chant breaks out.  V-3 finally rolls through for a near-fall.  He whips Atlantis to the ropes and ducks, but Atlantis slips behind him and slaps on a reverse Gorry Special.  It looks like the end for V-3 until he raises himself up, spins around and hits a sunset flip for 2, and the crowd is at an absolute fever pitch that even the gawd-awful Televisa sound mix can't hide.  V-3 tries to slap El Christo onto Atlantis, who reverses it into a tricky pin for 2.  V-3 breaks away and charges Atlantis... who catches him in the Atlantida, his spinning Torture Rack, to a to a huge pop.  V-3 fights and fights then finally slips out to a collective gasp of relief from the crowd.  V-3 hits an enzuilariato on Atlantis and celebrates, but Atlantis comes back with a dropkick to V-3's back.  V-3 makes the cardinal mistake of charging Atlantis a second time; Atlantis gets him in the Atlantida again, and this time drops to his knees to add pressure to the back of V-3, who finally submits to a  H U M O N G O U S  pop from the crowd.  What follows may be the most emotional unmasking in the history of lucha libre.  Surely the rubes on RSPW will have a good laugh reading this (provided the DVDVRs still get posted there), and they can laugh all they want.  But as I sat there watching V-3- noble in defeat, his son in his arms, his teary-eyed father Rey Mendoza unlacing the famous mask, his second Scorpio Jr hugging Villanos 4 and 5, then applauding Atlantis' victory- I'm not ashamed to admit that I was starting to cry myself.

Too bad this is all fake, right?  Jim Rome can kiss my ass.  Vince Russo can blow me, and he's gonna need that gig after burning his bridges everywhere else he's gone.  VIVA WRESTLING.

~!~

I think the end probably makes this the better match. I wanted VIII to win but that Atlantida where he drops to his knees, the ref leaps in the air (I think) and the crowd loses it is so good. Also which is crazier, Panther blading his chin or Atlantis blading (I think... damn I should just watch this again) the back of his head?! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3EZRKDkDVI&ab_channel=ProWrestlingOnly

[Curt McGirt]

Okay, I watched both matches again, and I was screwing everything up. Panther didn't blade his chin but Villano III had a wicked gig mark on his; Villano V was the one who got the back of his head busted hardway, and Atlantis bled for all four men. I like Atlantis/Villano III better (and it was the one I saw first). I'm not sure which unmasking was more emotional; Panther has such a sympathetic old guy face but Villano was there with his dad and ladies in the crowd were crying. Panther match had two WICKED topes but I think the unmasking fall losses were kinda cheap. 

[Matt D]

On 9/2/2023 at 1:29 PM, Casey said:

Did you think I forgot about March Madness 2015? Huh? EMMA, REALLY?!

Take your punishment, sir.

I do hate this and a lot of that comes down to who and what Rollins is and how he's presented. Pop quiz. Call upon your inner memories: what was Rollins in this initial championship run? Most people are going to say he was a smaller Shawn Michaels type with more modern trappings. He had the pedigree and other things where he didn't have to rely on strength. He did the triple dive, missed the phoenix splash, etc. Right? But when you actualy watch this, he also did strength spots and kicked out of a bunch instead of just getting a foot on the rope or whatever. He wasn't some sort of cerebral assassin technician who worked on a body part or lured people into mistakes. He was basically crossfit jesus, but in a way that was supposed to present him as an "all-arounder" when he wasn't really presented that way.  He would have worked out fairly well in AEW this way actually, but WWE had guys who towered over him and were obviously stronger and bigger. He wrestled like his stats were put in all the wrong attributes. He'd do the triple dive and the phoenix splash but also roll through to pick up Cena and sort of meet him evenly. Maybe it made him feel like more of a champion, but it wasn't the role he should have been playing. He's gained a lot of confidence over the years of being ok looking like an idiot and embracing it and getting over it and I haven't willingly watched one of his matches during that period so maybe he's gotten better at figuring out how to work more vulnerable without constantly making it seem like he's doing someone an athletic favor in the process, but this is a guy who could have been more over and more effective and drawn more money if he just realized how vulnerable he should have been there. Instead he injuring both Sting and Finn with the buckle bombs. The first act has Cena powering him just a little bit more and that works for me (on second watch at least) all the way to the triple dives but then it starts to get dumb. Cena was losing his purity of vision by this point too, starting to do the top rope rocker dropper and the ugly springboard stunner when he probably should have leaned even more into the meat and potatoes stuff. That's the other thing about Rollins; there's a bunch of stuff he tries to do where he flips to his feet out of something or whatever where he just doesn't hit it clean. Sometimes, if someone doesn't hit something clean it gives it a little more edge or realism. With Rollins it just makes it look like he can't even do the stuff that he's supposed to be good at, while he's going around trying to do a bunch of things that he shouldn't be trying to do. All that said, judging the match we got instead of the match I wanted (Which is a dumb thing to do, honestly; just saying), I didn't mind the first half of this as much as the second half when they start actually hitting the bombs instead of just trying to hit them, but end up hitting them too early and kicking out and having a bunch of match left. The big problem with the finish is that it should have led to something even bigger and it didn't. It just had a sort of bs rationale and Stewart spent too long setting up the spot and teasing he'd do it or he wouldn't do it in a way that made no sense either if he was really trying to decide or if he was going to hit Cena all along. You know who was a way better celebrity basically doing the same thing? Mark Feuerstein. That guy should have gone into wrestling after Royal Pains ended. There was probably a really good match these two could have but it would have involved Rollins bumping and feeding and stooging a lot more and Cena just trying to kill him. I get that they did that with Brock; hell I was live for the Rumble in Philly when they did do the Brock 3-way and while I never want to watch that back, it was fun in person because Rollins died a hell of a lot more. Cena doesn't need to be Brock, but he should have been different in his forward motion. This didn't establish Rollins as being more equal and more of a main eventer in beating Cena. Anything anyone's going to remember is the finish. Cena putting on the figure four made it more about Cena vs Flair's legacy (and to do a degree could have led to Stewart's decision rationale; seeing that Cena didn't DESERVE it because he was just playing around). And that would have been ok if the future program was Cena vs Flair or Cena vs Stewart, but that wasn't where this was headed. And then the crowd. The crowd was both enabling all of this and encouraging it. Cena getting the split reaction was fine against Danielson but against a scumbag heel like Rollins it just made things more annoying. They basked in it for a moment, but I don't think Rollins had any real idea what to do with it in the way others might have. It's funny I did get both Cena vs Danielson and Cena vs Rollins in this cycle because the difference is absolutely night and day. Two last points. 1. Emma was awesome in 2015 and it's her own damn fault that she didn't realize that it was ok to just be that character. When she came back to WWE and didn't come back as the bubble popping character it was nuts. 2. 2015 was almost ten years ago. I know I am old and established and have been here forever but I spent a lot of the 2000-2010 period flaunting my relative youth around here. And I feel like I spent the next few years getting my comeuppance when someone who was younger like Casey came along with a loud mouth and big opinions. You stay somewhere long enough and you become the old person. And if the younger people stay long enough, a lot of them grow into people who you are very glad to have around and to see in a friendly light. Casey is absolutely someone who I am glad is here. I don't always agree with him, but we've come to agree on a few things, and at the very least we've come to understand each other. You're still a bastard for having me watch this bullshit though.

[SirSmUgly]

So what I got from that Faulkner-esque stream of consciousness from Matt D is that Rollins is fucking terrible and that Casey is a solid dude and poster. 

Yeah, that seems about where I'd land, too!