Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 And yes this was always going to have to eventually lead to BIG BATTLES WITH DRAGONS AND ZOMBIES because that's what this is all about. The political theater was great and offered something different but that's not what the heart of the show really is. This was always Jon and Dany's story. The politics and intrigue is what made the previous seasons so great there's no denying that but if everything is dead what game is there left to play? If everyone is dead who cares who sits on the throne? There's nothing new or different about zombies or dragons. But we've spent several years developing these characters and readying them for what the final season was always going to be. What character moments are left to see? What is left to discuss? The problem isn't the writers or even Martin taking too long.. the problem is people wanting this show to continue to be something it was never going to be. This is a fantasy adventure that finally got around to being a fantasy adventure. Also, I seem to recall many folks being pissed off that earlier battles were not being shown on screen. Now the budget allows for these huge spectacles and there's still people who aren't happy with it. Can't please everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 How does that justify it abandoning its own internal logic though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: How does that justify it abandoning its own internal logic though? They aren't all good ideas I'm saying that the show was going to shift into fantasy eventually with no time left for long walks through the middle of Westeros and ragging on the showrunners is pretty harsh given that they are allotted months while Martin is really never going to finish this work. This is what they were given. "Here's how it ends. Get there" and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 It's not that they aren't showing the travel. It's that the show isn't allowing the idea of the passage of time. This season should've literally covered liked a year and half or two years by now, just based on Jon's traveling. People are jumping through hoops trying to make sense of Dany getting to the frozen lake, but how in the hell did she mobilize the Dothraki in time to get to the Loot Train? How did Jon travel from Dragonstone to Eastwatch in less time than it took Arya to confront Sansa about the letter? None of that is explained by "less episodes", "they don't have the book", or "it's more of a traditional fantasy story now"* And this is the show that three years ago never would've let all five important characters survive a suicide mission. *Especially given that I made the traditional good vs evil argument myself in this thread. ----- I want Cersei to completely reject them, and Jaime to finally see that she is completely unhinged. We need somebody important to die this season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 And, to be clear, I enjoyed last night's episode. I enjoyed last week's. I called the one two weeks ago fucking great television and stand by it. The Queen's Justice was GoT greatness. We had several amazing character scenes, a painful death, and an insane battle scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said: And yes this was always going to have to eventually lead to BIG BATTLES WITH DRAGONS AND ZOMBIES because that's what this is all about. The political theater was great and offered something different but that's not what the heart of the show really is. This was always Jon and Dany's story. The politics and intrigue is what made the previous seasons so great there's no denying that but if everything is dead what game is there left to play? If everyone is dead who cares who sits on the throne? There's nothing new or different about zombies or dragons. But we've spent several years developing these characters and readying them for what the final season was always going to be. What character moments are left to see? What is left to discuss? The problem isn't the writers or even Martin taking too long.. the problem is people wanting this show to continue to be something it was never going to be. This is a fantasy adventure that finally got around to being a fantasy adventure. Also, I seem to recall many folks being pissed off that earlier battles were not being shown on screen. Now the budget allows for these huge spectacles and there's still people who aren't happy with it. Can't please everyone. For one thing, I think it's a pretty big assumption that the show was always going to boil down to battles between dragons and zombies. There were always going to be dragons vs. zombies, but the idea that the political/human intrigues were just a prelude to a simple good vs. evi. is very much at odds with the story George was/is crafting. I have a hard time believing his intentions were as simple as that. And I can't even believe "What character moments are left to see" is a real question. Tyrion/Jamie meeting again - hell, Tyrion meeting Bronn again, or Tyrion making it all the way back to King's Landing - should've been huge, but instead it was a tossed-off transition scene, only used to connect the dots to getting Cersei on board the idiotic Wight Heist. It was really mind blowing. Once upon a time all that would've been an episode unto itself, and it would've been awesome and likely given Dinklage some Emmy-worthy material. But, nope, we gotta rush around to get this big dumb action scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Didn't Martin say years ago that the story was about everyone missing that the real conflict was to the North? At any rate, I think it's always been about how the petty squabbles, the political drama, and the wars have just been softening up Westeros for the White Walkers. Ultimately, that seems to have always been where we're headed. There's a reason the story started with a White Walker, one survivor, and his warning being ignored even by Ned Stark, whose family legacy should've been to protect against that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigertooth Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: This season should've literally covered liked a year and half or two years by now, just based on Jon's traveling. People are jumping through hoops trying to make sense of Dany getting to the frozen lake, but how in the hell did she mobilize the Dothraki in time to get to the Loot Train? How did Jon travel from Dragonstone to Eastwatch in less time than it took Arya to confront Sansa about the letter? Quote I've never assumed that because they cut from one scene to another, that means they're happening at the same time. Maybe this season *is* two years long, and maybe sometimes they cut from a Winterfell scene to a King's Landing scene that took place 6 months earlier. Other than the dragon run in this week, I haven't seen anything that feels especially implausible time wise. Granted, I'm not spending a lot of time thinking about it. I'm sure plenty of folks are doing elaborate timelines to try to explain things, and I look forward to seeing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 And yeah, not doing the Tyrion/Bronn scene (which was scripted) is indefensible. I mean, I'm in for the long haul, next week and the next season. And the books if/when. But it's existing as much off past goodwill as anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Does any book fan know how the flaming swords work on Game of Thrones? Is it magic or a slight of hand trick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 It definitely was a trick before, but I think maybe they started working by magic later, part of that whole "magic is waking up" thing that undercurrents the series. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I don't think because they are telling the East watch story and the Sansa/Arya story at the same time means that it's all happening in the same length of time. Maybe I'm in the minority here and that's fine but to me most of the discussion surrounding when and how long is any of this stuff happening is not very important to me. True that it would have been important when everything was political theater and backstabbing but now that we've reached the fantasy portion of the program I don't see it as an issue. Also, see some of these complaints is exactly what I'm talking about. Nothing against @EVA and how he likes his Thrones to be but I don't think it's all about setting up the next big dumb action scene. I said before, in earlier seasons they had to gloss over a lot of that stuff. We've had seven seasons of character development that have led to this point. People complained when there was no action, now there's complaints that there is too much action? And again, why are you certain that this wasn't going to come down to the dead vs. Dany and Jon? Everything in the books points to this. If it didn't come down to this I'd call it bullshit Russo level swerving for the sake of swerving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 George spent umpteen thousand pages (or will have, by the time he's done) subverting fantasy tropes. It would be fantastically dumb if the story ended up with a traditional, binary fantasy climax. There's no way that's all there was to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 It could go in the opposite order. Living vs Dead followed by Dany/Jon/whoever vs Cersei. But I doubt it. It's always been about Winter coming, and death with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 When was the last time people really complained about there not being enough action on this show anyway? Season 1, season 2? The show had been existing in a very pleasant middle ground between the two for quite some time before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, EVA said: George spent umpteen thousand pages (or will have, by the time he's done) subverting fantasy tropes. It would be fantastically dumb if the story ended up with a traditional, binary fantasy climax. There's no way that's all there was to it. Dude, a lot of the theories aren't theories anymore. George confirmed and discussed the end game with the showrunners. That much we know. Obviously there would be more detail to the books but again the guy isn't writing or barely.. I didn't pick up the books until after I started watching the show. I think some OG book readers have talked themselves into a lot of stuff that was unlikely and probably because it's going on 20 years now. All the clues point to what we are seeing on screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said: It definitely was a trick before, but I think maybe they started working by magic later, part of that whole "magic is waking up" thing that undercurrents the series. Interesting thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Just now, Niners Fan in CT said: Dude, a lot of the theories aren't theories anymore. George confirmed and discussed the end game with the showrunners. That much we know. Obviously there would be more detail to the books but again the guy isn't writing or barely.. I didn't pick up the books until after I started watching the show. I think some OG book readers have talked themselves into a lot of stuff that was unlikely and probably because it's going on 20 years now. All the clues point to what we are seeing on screen. If George was going in the direction of a straightforward fantasy ending, then that's terrible and he should be jailed for making people sit through 80,000 pages of convoluted political machinations to get there. I like to give him credit for being smarter than that, but he's written plenty of terrible stuff along the way (ALL of A Feast for Crows, for starters), so I wouldn't be completely surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 1 minute ago, EVA said: If George was going in the direction of a straightforward fantasy ending, then that's terrible and he should be jailed for making people sit through 80,000 pages of convoluted political machinations to get there. I like to give him credit for being smarter than that, but he's written plenty of terrible stuff along the way (ALL of A Feast for Crows, for starters), so I wouldn't be completely surprised. I don't think it's going to be completely straightforward. I'm just speculating here but I don't think we are getting "Hollywood'd" I just think Dany/Jon vs. Ice Zombies was the obvious war that nobody in Westeros saw coming or cared to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 We'll see. But this season has gotten pretty Hollywood. It's basically gone from THE WIRE of high fantasy to THE FORCE AWAKENS of HBO dramas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I can't follow you on that man. Everything always pointed to it being the real conflict. The fighting was a distraction that made the Andals more vulnerable. It's why the legends of the Last Hero, The Prince(ss) Who Was Promised, and Azor Ahai keep coming up. It's why magic suddenly waking up, in the forms of dragons, wildfyre, and Wights mattered. It's why he's been steadily building up two potential candidates for those heroic roles. Along the way, he deconstructed traditional fantasy. But what's the point of deconstruction if you aren't going to reconstruct it at the end? And, again, there is significance in how the story first started. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 (I'm now a Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire centrist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Now I'm really speculating but I'd bet George definitely thought about an ice dragon. An ice dragon is an idea I've seen thrown around for years. Maybe he even thought that Night King would set a trap to obtain one which I think is ultimately what happened. Now, how we arrived to that happening is probably all on the showrunners but I only give them leeway because they have so little time to get from point to point to point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, EVA said: We'll see. But this season has gotten pretty Hollywood. It's basically gone from THE WIRE of high fantasy to THE FORCE AWAKENS of HBO dramas. The GOT Wire ended last season with Cersei on the throne having lost everything to get it. She won the Game of Thrones. Welcome to A Song of Ice and Fire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Although there is still a way to pay all that off and still be completely subversive: The Knight's King winning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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