2023 Joshi Puroresu Discussion Thread

[Elsalvajeloco]

The Stardom Halloween show broke Ram . Grizzly ghouls from every tomb, are closing in to seal your doom...

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Eh, she'll be fine. Considering what she's survived around Triple Six? A brief Thriller possession is nothing.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Maika is the gift that keeps giving.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

QUEEN VALKYRIE ended up beating Ibuki Hoshi & Kaho Matsushita for the vacant International Ribbon Tag Titles, with Kaho dropping the fall to YuuRI. Ancham said that she wants an Ice Ribbon team to challenge them and try to take the belts away, but no challengers have come forward just yet.

Ibuki rebounded two matches later and successfully retained the Infinity Title against Mifu Ashida, but Mifu lasted just under twenty minutes and has been getting rave reviews for her performance, with a lot of comparisons being made to Tsukasa Fujimoto. The potential is definitely there, Mifu has looked great for someone who's only had ten matches. The company itself, thankfully, isn't drawing the comparisons to Tsukka (that's way too much pressure to put on someone). Hopefully Mifu can continue her progression... it'll be fun to see what she does next.

As for Ibuki, her Ribbonmania title defense for 12/31 is already set, as she was challenged by Kaho Matsushita. For the next challenger to be set two months in advance is pretty unusual, but Ribbonmania is a banner show for Ice Ribbon so it's nice to see the main already set. Ibuki and Kaho had a strong series of matches in the spring, so bringing it back with higher stakes is certainly welcome.

[quackhell]

12 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

QUEEN VALKYRIE ended up beating Ibuki Hoshi & Kaho Matsushita for the vacant International Ribbon Tag Titles, with Kaho dropping the fall to YuuRI. Ancham said that she wants an Ice Ribbon team to challenge them and try to take the belts away, but no challengers have come forward just yet.

Ibuki rebounded two matches later and successfully retained the Infinity Title against Mifu Ashida, but Mifu lasted just under twenty minutes and has been getting rave reviews for her performance, with a lot of comparisons being made to Tsukasa Fujimoto. The potential is definitely there, Mifu has looked great for someone who's only had ten matches. The company itself, thankfully, isn't drawing the comparisons to Tsukka (that's way too much pressure to put on someone). Hopefully Mifu can continue her progression... it'll be fun to see what she does next.

As for Ibuki, her Ribbonmania title defense for 12/31 is already set, as she was challenged by Kaho Matsushita. For the next challenger to be set two months in advance is pretty unusual, but Ribbonmania is a banner show for Ice Ribbon so it's nice to see the main already set. Ibuki and Kaho had a strong series of matches in the spring, so bringing it back with higher stakes is certainly welcome.

I appreciate the Ice Ribbon updates and analysis. I mostly just catch the digest clips on YouTube so more context is appreciated. Good to see the company able to move forward despite not having some of the bigger name talent of the past. I have been doing a historical watch and just got to the time Team DATE debuted. Seems like a weird little experiment that just didn't have legs to last.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

10 hours ago, quackhell said:

I appreciate the Ice Ribbon updates and analysis. I mostly just catch the digest clips on YouTube so more context is appreciated. Good to see the company able to move forward despite not having some of the bigger name talent of the past. I have been doing a historical watch and just got to the time Team DATE debuted. Seems like a weird little experiment that just didn't have legs to last.

Thank you! I'm glad you like my posts about a niche promotion lol.

Ice Ribbon is very good about keeping folks cycled through and letting people have their opportunities. They're basically a promotion built on the mindset of "if this is something you want to try, we'll teach you how to do it and have fun", rather than "we'll turn you into an international star".

Take Yuuki Mashiro, for example. She originally joined Pro Wrestling Circle (which is Ice Ribbon's amateur class that teaches exercise techniques if you want eventually become a wrestler) to get in better shape. She decided to train to wrestle and only wanted to do a career of three years before she retired to become a nurse. Mashiro was very timid in the ring, didn't like getting hit, quit out of matches a few times (she ran out of the ring and refused to return after being chopped by Ibuki Hoshi once... and I mean after literally one chop). Ice Ribbon not only pushed her, she got to retire as the Triangle Ribbon Champion, because they knew her career was going to be short and wanted to give her as much of a ride as possible.

That's not a promotion that's for everyone, and that's okay. It's very much a niche promotion, and I totally get why on the surface people see a lot of talent leave or cycle out and think "this promotion is in turmoil!" or "Ice Ribbon is on the verge of death!" because I think there's a built-in expectation that if you're a promotion, you're supposed to try and be the best. Ice Ribbon is a promotion made of people who are part-time wrestlers, students, and moms who want a weekend hobby. That means you're going to naturally see some roster churn, especially as things significantly relaxed after 2021 with the Prominence departure.

I see people say "how can a promotion like that stay afloat", and well... they own their own dojo, so anything they run there is almost pure profit. They rent that dojo out a few times a month for other groups to run shows there. They sell shows to small localities and festivals and make profit there. The only time they really are in a risk is when they run Korakuen, 176BOX, Yokohama... places like that. But that's how.

You bring up the DATEs and they're another good example. They wanted to give wrestling a shot, and I don't think any other promotion would've been willing to do it. Ice Ribbon is the one that would say "sure, come in!" Ice Ribbon's history is loaded with people who only have a handful of matches, because that's all they wanted out of wrestling. I think there needs to be space for a promotion willing to give people those kind of chances. Or take Giulia. There's all sorts of theories about why Giulia left, but when you get down to the heart of the matter, Giulia wasn't a fit for what Ice Ribbon does. That's just the honest truth of it. For what Giulia's goals and ambitions appear to be, Stardom is a better fit for a promotion for her, and I'm glad she sought out a fit for her. I see these strange arguments of "Ice Ribbon wasn't going to push her" or "Ice Ribbon saw nothing in her", and it's like... that's not anywhere close to true. Anyone who says that has sour grapes about how she left. You'll see similar comments popping up now about Asahi now that she's left, about how Ice Ribbon saw nothing in her and wasn't pushing her. Asahi was in the main event at Ribbonmania last year. That's a push with some significant plans. To say otherwise is ridiculous. But Asahi felt she needed to go elsewhere for her goals, and if she's happy, then I'm happy for her.

Another criticism of current Ice Ribbon from Western fans is inconsistent pushes and too many outside talent winning, but I don't agree with that. There are a few very loud people who get absolutely furious any time Sumika Yanagawa or Misa Kagura win a match, which I've never understood. Rydeen Hagane beating Yappy the day before Yappy was to wrestle Totoro Satsuki for the Infinity Title back in June was also criticized, but to me, that was a logical booking. Yappy beat Totoro on a fluke in a tag match to earn her shot, and Rydeen is historically pushed strong in Pure-J and elsewhere, whereas Yappy had been losing a lot prior to her fluke win and needed a match to show that she could at least appear capable. Did she lose to Rydeen? Yes. Did she look like she could beat Rydeen? Also yes. Would it have been better if she had won? Sure, but she got a lot out of an almost win, and I think if people just go by results, they don't get that context. (Spoiler: a lot of people who complain about Ice Ribbon's booking don't actually watch the shows, because the matches do contain context behind them, and there's more to what happens than just the results.)

With all that said, do I recommend you check out Ice Ribbon shows? Totally. I think Ibuki Hoshi and Kaho Matsushita are fantastically talented, and there are rookies like Mifu Ashida and Nanae Furukawa who, once they get more experience, are going to be special. Should you expect Stardom or TJPW? No. It's a different kind of group, there are matches that aren't very good, things can be a little strange sometimes because it relies on some Japanese cultural knowledge like when they do matches where you have to do moves that start with a certain character and I'm not that good at Japanese. I'm comforted knowing it exists, though, and it's worth my $10 a month. If you have a spare $10, it's worth giving a try for a month to check the back catalogue, I think.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Sparkleface

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Whoops. Messed up an edit and accidentally quoted myself.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Sparkleface

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

As part of the Tokyo Dome City festivities, Ibuki Hoshi and Saran teamed up to slay a kaiju.

Don't believe me?

 

[Eivion]

5 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

Thank you! I'm glad you like my posts about a niche promotion lol.

Ice Ribbon is very good about keeping folks cycled through and letting people have their opportunities. They're basically a promotion built on the mindset of "if this is something you want to try, we'll teach you how to do it and have fun", rather than "we'll turn you into an international star".

Take Yuuki Mashiro, for example. She originally joined Pro Wrestling Circle (which is Ice Ribbon's amateur class that teaches exercise techniques if you want eventually become a wrestler) to get in better shape. She decided to train to wrestle and only wanted to do a career of three years before she retired to become a nurse. Mashiro was very timid in the ring, didn't like getting hit, quit out of matches a few times (she ran out of the ring and refused to return after being chopped by Ibuki Hoshi once... and I mean after literally one chop). Ice Ribbon not only pushed her, she got to retire as the Triangle Ribbon Champion, because they knew her career was going to be short and wanted to give her as much of a ride as possible.

That's not a promotion that's for everyone, and that's okay. It's very much a niche promotion, and I totally get why on the surface people see a lot of talent leave or cycle out and think "this promotion is in turmoil!" or "Ice Ribbon is on the verge of death!" because I think there's a built-in expectation that if you're a promotion, you're supposed to try and be the best. Ice Ribbon is a promotion made of people who are part-time wrestlers, students, and moms who want a weekend hobby. That means you're going to naturally see some roster churn, especially as things significantly relaxed after 2021 with the Prominence departure.

I see people say "how can a promotion like that stay afloat", and well... they own their own dojo, so anything they run there is almost pure profit. They rent that dojo out a few times a month for other groups to run shows there. They sell shows to small localities and festivals and make profit there. The only time they really are in a risk is when they run Korakuen, 176BOX, Yokohama... places like that. But that's how.

You bring up the DATEs and they're another good example. They wanted to give wrestling a shot, and I don't think any other promotion would've been willing to do it. Ice Ribbon is the one that would say "sure, come in!" Ice Ribbon's history is loaded with people who only have a handful of matches, because that's all they wanted out of wrestling. I think there needs to be space for a promotion willing to give people those kind of chances. Or take Giulia. There's all sorts of theories about why Giulia left, but when you get down to the heart of the matter, Giulia wasn't a fit for what Ice Ribbon does. That's just the honest truth of it. For what Giulia's goals and ambitions appear to be, Stardom is a better fit for a promotion for her, and I'm glad she sought out a fit for her. I see these strange arguments of "Ice Ribbon wasn't going to push her" or "Ice Ribbon saw nothing in her", and it's like... that's not anywhere close to true. Anyone who says that has sour grapes about how she left. You'll see similar comments popping up now about Asahi now that she's left, about how Ice Ribbon saw nothing in her and wasn't pushing her. Asahi was in the main event at Ribbonmania last year. That's a push with some significant plans. To say otherwise is ridiculous. But Asahi felt she needed to go elsewhere for her goals, and if she's happy, then I'm happy for her.

Another criticism of current Ice Ribbon from Western fans is inconsistent pushes and too many outside talent winning, but I don't agree with that. There are a few very loud people who get absolutely furious any time Sumika Yanagawa or Misa Kagura win a match, which I've never understood. Rydeen Hagane beating Yappy the day before Yappy was to wrestle Totoro Satsuki for the Infinity Title back in June was also criticized, but to me, that was a logical booking. Yappy beat Totoro on a fluke in a tag match to earn her shot, and Rydeen is historically pushed strong in Pure-J and elsewhere, whereas Yappy had been losing a lot prior to her fluke win and needed a match to show that she could at least appear capable. Did she lose to Rydeen? Yes. Did she look like she could beat Rydeen? Also yes. Would it have been better if she had won? Sure, but she got a lot out of an almost win, and I think if people just go by results, they don't get that context. (Spoiler: a lot of people who complain about Ice Ribbon's booking don't actually watch the shows, because the matches do contain context behind them, and there's more to what happens than just the results.)

With all that said, do I recommend you check out Ice Ribbon shows? Totally. I think Ibuki Hoshi and Kaho Matsushita are fantastically talented, and there are rookies like Mifu Ashida and Nanae Furukawa who, once they get more experience, are going to be special. Should you expect Stardom or TJPW? No. It's a different kind of group, there are matches that aren't very good, things can be a little strange sometimes because it relies on some Japanese cultural knowledge like when they do matches where you have to do moves that start with a certain character and I'm not that good at Japanese. I'm comforted knowing it exists, though, and it's worth my $10 a month. If you have a spare $10, it's worth giving a try for a month to check the back catalogue, I think.

Interesting, everything you are talking about more or less makes it sound like IR has gone back to what Emi Sakura was trying to make it when it began. For a long while it was not just that and absolutely was trying to be something bigger. Its why Sakura left in the first place. Giulia left for money, ideals, and how she felt she was treated. She herself has said these things in interviews the past few years.

I don't really blame some Western fans for being annoyed as when they likely got into Ice Ribbon it was probably during those times where it was trying to be bigger. Many probably didn't notice or like the shift. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

17 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Interesting, everything you are talking about more or less makes it sound like IR has gone back to what Emi Sakura was trying to make it when it began. For a long while it was not just that and absolutely was trying to be something bigger. Its why Sakura left in the first place. Giulia left for money, ideals, and how she felt she was treated. She herself has said these things in interviews the past few years.

I don't really blame some Western fans for being annoyed as when they likely got into Ice Ribbon it was probably during those times where it was trying to be bigger. Many probably didn't notice or like the shift. 

There was a pretty significant culture shift at the end of 2021, as Hajime Sato was planning on closing Ice Ribbon and was talked into keeping it open by the talent still there. There wasn't really a structure in place to support the growth that they were trying to push towards, so it's either return to the ethos of what makes the promotion work in the first place, or there is no promotion. That means dropping deathmatches (which had no place there anyway), not trying to run so many larger buildings when you can't fill them, trying to be efficient with what outside gigs you take, et cetera.

People can be annoyed if they want, but if it comes down to "this had to happen or there's no promotion", we can either accept the change or move on to find something else we do like. Complaining about it on the internet incessantly doesn't change the reality of the situation, and unfortunately, the people annoyed by the change tend to complain incessantly instead of finding what they do like.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

So on the Samurai TV anniversary show, there was supposed to be an "elders vs. second generation" match, with Kyusei Sakura Hirota, Haumko Hoshi, and Ayako Sato against Ibuki Hoshi, Kizuna Tanaka, and Arisa Shinose. Kizuna suffered an injury and was unable to compete, but she promised she'd bring a suitable second-generation replacement.

She brought...

Spoiler

Tsukasa Fujimoto, the second-generation Flying Angel.

I'd say that was suitable.

[quackhell]

5 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

So on the Samurai TV anniversary show, there was supposed to be an "elders vs. second generation" match, with Kyusei Sakura Hirota, Haumko Hoshi, and Ayako Sato against Ibuki Hoshi, Kizuna Tanaka, and Arisa Shinose. Kizuna suffered an injury and was unable to compete, but she promised she'd bring a suitable second-generation replacement.

She brought...

  Reveal hidden contents

Tsukasa Fujimoto, the second-generation Flying Angel.

I'd say that was suitable.

Spoiler

These little teases keep me hopeful for a possible part time return. 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by quackhell

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

30 minutes ago, quackhell said:

  Reveal hidden contents

These little teases keep me hopeful for a possible part time return. 

 

Spoiler

She tweeted after the show that she's looking to make a full-time comeback and will announce when it happens. I wouldn't be too surprised for it to be a total of 18-24 months for her to be out. If it doesn't happen at Ribbonmania this year, then a Korakuen in 2024 is most likely, and there are six of those booked, with the first being Winter Story on January 27. The other likely return scenario would be if Ice Ribbon returns to Tsukka's hometown of Rifu, and those shows are usually saved for the summer.

Either way, her working an unannounced match is a very positive sign that it'll be soon. I don't think it'd be a true full-time return with her working her relentless schedule as she did before, and I think she'd be on more of a schedule like what Hamuko Hoshi is working, where she's on all the non-dojo shows with occasional dojo trips. But Tsukka is also a physical marvel, so who knows what she'll do.

 

[Matt D]

Is this Sukeban thing (which just signed Saree over WWE) a money laundering operation or a money mark operation?

[dragonzombie]

The World of Stardom Championship match, Tamu Nakano vs Suzu Suzuki is canceled.

Starlight Kid is coming back, the replacement match for above is Starlight Kid vs. Suzu Suzuki vs. AZM.

 

[nofuture]

In not so surprising news.  According to PWInsider, Giulia is planning to visit the PC sometime this month.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

Is this Sukeban thing (which just signed Saree over WWE) a money laundering operation or a money mark operation?

1. I dunno if signed over is the right phrase given that she just left WWE after a rather unspectacular run.

2. I would not say money mark as much as some really is invested women wearing long decorative fingernails. That said, for their debut, they did galvanize a decent amount of support.

[Matt D]

41 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

1. I dunno if signed over is the right phrase given that she just left WWE after a rather unspectacular run.

2. I would not say money mark as much as some really is invested women wearing long decorative fingernails. That said, for their debut, they did galvanize a decent amount of support.

In the time since my post, apparently it came out there weren't WWE talks like first reported so much as her name being brought up and it noted that the door was always opened. The rest of my post stands.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Matt D

[Elsalvajeloco]

24 minutes ago, Matt D said:

In the time since my post, apparently it came out there weren't WWE talks like first reported so much as her named being brought up and it noted that the door was always opened. The rest of my post stands.

I mean if you look at the roster for Sukeban, it's a bunch of the top female wrestlers from the top smaller promotions including some who participate pretty regularly in Stardom. Sareee is someone I am not surprised would be there.

[Elsalvajeloco]

5 hours ago, nofuture said:

In not so surprising news.  According to PWInsider, Giulia is planning to visit the PC sometime this month.

Update of sorts:

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

I can't help but feel as though I accidentally summoned this by mentioning the last time Giulia looked for a change of scenery.

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

I can't help but feel as though I accidentally summoned this by mentioning the last time Giulia looked for a change of scenery.

I seem to recall some cryptic posts from some months back, but yeah, it's easier to just blame you.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Just now, Elsalvajeloco said:

I seem to recall some cryptic posts from some months back, but yeah, it's easier to just blame you.

I'll add it to my list of shame, along with "liking Max Moon" and "not giving enough advance warning to my daughter about not using regular dish soap in the dishwasher".

[ka-to]

Aja Kong had a good hardcore match with Dash Chisako at Korakuen on the 5th for Sendai Girls. Aja took two bumps through tables, a double footstomp off the stage onto a table and brought nice violence. It was at Korakuen, so the video should show up somewhere. It really surprised me because two days earlier in Ice Ribbon she was in a tag, did her spots and got out, and looked like she was having a heart attack after tagging out. 

Hitting up some of the OGs restaurant/snacks on this trip. I was at a special Bull Nakano night at Kyoko's Akayu, ate at Genki Misae's Izakaya Never Give Up, and drank at Hotta's Hearts 82. I'm planning one more night in Musahikoyama to go to Akayu and hopefully Noriyo Tateno's GOHAN is open. I was too tired to go to Natsu Bar on Sunday night. Went back to the hotel to watch Hanshin win instead. Natsu's not an OG yet anyway.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

8 hours ago, ka-to said:

Aja Kong had a good hardcore match with Dash Chisako at Korakuen on the 5th for Sendai Girls. Aja took two bumps through tables, a double footstomp off the stage onto a table and brought nice violence. It was at Korakuen, so the video should show up somewhere. It really surprised me because two days earlier in Ice Ribbon she was in a tag, did her spots and got out, and looked like she was having a heart attack after tagging out. 

Hitting up some of the OGs restaurant/snacks on this trip. I was at a special Bull Nakano night at Kyoko's Akayu, ate at Genki Misae's Izakaya Never Give Up, and drank at Hotta's Hearts 82. I'm planning one more night in Musahikoyama to go to Akayu and hopefully Noriyo Tateno's GOHAN is open. I was too tired to go to Natsu Bar on Sunday night. Went back to the hotel to watch Hanshin win instead. Natsu's not an OG yet anyway.

Aja's pretty inconsistent these days (which is to be expected considering how many miles are on the tires), but I guess her adrenaline kicks up when it's just her compared to tagging in and out? I dunno. If anyone's entitled to coast if they want to, Aja would certainly qualify.