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2018 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread


Elsalvajeloco

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3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't think they lost sight as much as you have to convince MMA fans now you're the real deal, and that's growing harder and harder because the talent level is so high. Remember when the argument was that UFC > boxing because you get more bang for your buck and boxing only has two fights per card in many cases. Well, boxing is now reaping the benefits of that and UFC and MMA in general is faltering because you can't sell everybody as a killer or some brash personality. You can't bullshit the fans anymore. You wanna know why Top Rank was able to have a phenomenal year on ESPN last year. It's because they took most of the talent HBO was using the last couple years because HBO was only singularly focusing on those guys. Pacquiao has been a star for almost ten years, but Bud Crawford and Lomachenko ascended to superstardom in terms of ratings gold because HBO didn't have five or six other fighters to focus on their undercards. Granted HBO had many shitty cards before Top Rank took their guys to ESPN, but HBO placed their bets on only a handful of fighters at that moment (Ward, Pacquiao, Kovalev, GGG, Roman Gonzalez, Canelo, Gilberto Ramirez, Crawford, and Lomachenko).You had a whole slew of fighters who were "contenders" because HBO didn't really put their full weight behind those guys because it's fruitless to a big extent. The UFC has a problem in that have a ton of good fighters, but none of them stand  out in any sort way to casuals like a GGG or Bud Crawford. Kevin Lee or whatever guy you can name is meaningful to us (meaning hardcores) because we can properly contextualize him in the space of fighting as well. You wanna know why Conor got the super push? Because he had a big fanbase before and coming off the Brimage fight. The UFC didn't built that fanbase. They just realized it existed much like Dave Meltzer contacted the UFC after they buried PVZ vs. Curran on the prelims. The people who had been watching Cage Warriors had been telling them to sign McGregor forever. ESPN in 2017 didn't do anything special to get those huge ratings. They just realized those fighters had fanbases that were already crafted.

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I think this is just part of the problem, but the UFC/WME-IMG have the resources, platforms, and cash to make these guys matter.  Remember a couple of years ago when Matt Brown was going on his run?  We all remember that, because Matt Brown fought on Fox, Fight Nights, and featured prelims where his fights got the maximum number of eyeballs.  That is where the UFC is falling short.  Why was the Darren Till vs. Cowboy Cerrone a fight pass exclusive?  Cowboy is one of the few guys who seems to have a big fanbase, and Darren Till is a great prospect.  That fight needs all the eyeballs it can get.  Darren Till got a dominant win over a fighter who people care about and no one but the people who already knew Darren Till got to see it.  That moment with him and Mike Perry was the exact type of moment that will get fans interested, except no one saw it.  They clearly recognize that Darren Till is someone to watch, or he wouldn't have been in that fight.  They just aren't putting him in a position to be watched.  Darren Till has been in the UFC for almost 3 years and has not been on a card anyone but super hardcore MMA fans have watched since his debut.  That is a problem and one that they have put on themselves.  He beat the hell out of a dude who just main evented a Fight Night, and no one cares.  Till has been actively complaining about not having a fight for months.  That is promotional malpractice.  The matchmaking has been really good lately, the talent pool is extremely deep, and they are doing nothing at all to take advantage of either.

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

 

I think this is just part of the problem, but the UFC/WME-IMG have the resources, platforms, and cash to make these guys matter.  Remember a couple of years ago when Matt Brown was going on his run?  We all remember that, because Matt Brown fought on Fox, Fight Nights, and featured prelims where his fights got the maximum number of eyeballs.  

That's kinda like the WWE discovering Undertaker was on a streak at Mania though. The same happened with Magny and Tony Ferguson along with Holloway. Anyway, that's more a tool for fighters who are okay fighters but not particularly great fighters. However, Matt Brown really wasn't more famous because of that. I mean he got a little bit more notoriety but not more to the point where "Damn, look at Matt Brown." It's kinda like Ike Quartey back in the day getting fights with like De La Hoya. It was good seeing someone who works hard get one or two meaningful fights. However, people understand at the end of the day he is still Matt Brown.

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. Why was the Darren Till vs. Cowboy Cerrone a fight pass exclusive?

Darren Till is from Liverpool. They want him to fight in the UK and Western Europe as much as possible to grow his fanbase. Thus, most of those shows are going to be on Fight Pass. Besides a couple shows in like the Netherlands and Croatia, they don't do those shows on FS1 unless Fox has space for them and most importantly wants them. Plus, they really needed a main event for that show.

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

Till has been actively complaining about not having a fight for months.  That is promotional malpractice.  

They want him to have a certain type of fight and opponent. This isn't nothing new especially for fighters they want to move along the way and at the pace they prefer. When fights fall through, they fall through. When they find someone they would like him to face, they will make that fight. I have to respect that considering it feels like we see prospects fall much faster now. I mean at one point last year in the last four or five months, all the prominent UFC welterweights were booked save for Thiago Alves (who just lost), Zak Cummings, and Woodley. Siyar wasn't booked but he had just fought up at 185. That's probably why it felt like we got a ton of upsets like Ponzi over Gunnar Nelson and Covington over Maia. When you match everyone up, you leave yourself fewer options. Hence, why people were clamoring for it to be Perry vs. Till instead of Ponzi vs. Perry. Everyone was booked whether they lost or won. I think they want everyone to get back in there immediately, but they're going to be careful as shit doing so.

Matter of fact, if Perry beats Max Griffin tonight, that's the fight to make with Darren Till. I can see that being it's own TV main event.

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UFC can't just snap their fingers and make someone a star, but I think it is safe to say that they could be trying a lot more than they are and have been for years now to do so.  For a company with shows on broadcast tv, worth a few billion, run now by a talent agency and with several shows in recent years that drew tons of attention due to Conor and Rousey you really could not have gotten less in terms of star making out of the whole thing if you tried.  Part of it is due to the fact that it ain't scripted and people lose but hell, that ain't an excuse to not even try and there is little evidence that they are.  I'm pretty sure Dana has trashed more champs in recent years than he's propped up...

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14 hours ago, username said:

UFC can't just snap their fingers and make someone a star, but I think it is safe to say that they could be trying a lot more than they are and have been for years now to do so.  For a company with shows on broadcast tv, worth a few billion, run now by a talent agency and with several shows in recent years that drew tons of attention due to Conor and Rousey you really could not have gotten less in terms of star making out of the whole thing if you tried.  Part of it is due to the fact that it ain't scripted and people lose but hell, that ain't an excuse to not even try and there is little evidence that they are.  I'm pretty sure Dana has trashed more champs in recent years than he's propped up...

The thing is no one has ever had explained what try harder is. I don't think losing is an excuse as much as leveraging talent with little involvement in the outcome is tough in terms of creativity. They were creative in getting Ngannou a title shot ASAP after the Overeem KO went viral. Didn't work out but they parlayed that into Miocic vs. Cormier, which is something they definitely wouldn't have done five years ago. In a different era, they would have sat on that and just moved on. Hell, they were planning to do Cyborg vs. Nunes in Rio and were almost there in finalizing it but Holloway kinda fucked that plan up. However, if Cyborg beats Kunitskaya this upcoming Saturday and Nunes beats Pennington on the Rio card, I certainly see them going back to that well for late summer or early fall.

They're certainly trying but best laid plans and all that.

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9 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The thing is no one has ever had explained what try harder is.

 

I would say less try harder and just try something, anything different.  The approach they've taken for the last few years really hasn't produced anything and like... they've got over 200 fighters under contract I believe.  Even by dumb luck a few of those should connect but it seems like since TUF has gone cold they are kinda frozen and unsure what to actually do other that heavily focus on pretty people and hey, that produced interest and moderate results!  It being hard doesn't mean you should just shrug your shoulders and hope something falls into your lap, if success is unlikely you put as many eggs in as many different baskets as possible.

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I lol'd at over 200 fighters. They have 94 welterweights right now alone. You're still not suggesting any method at all in how to get people over.

I think the oversaturated approach and bloated roster make it very difficult for casuals to connect to fighters when hardly anybody stands out. You have to win all of the time in flashy style and have a personality to match. Not a lot of that to go around especially now that the competition is so much fiercer than it was 10 years ago in all but maybe one or two divisions. People used to watch all of the hype pieces they'd do on Spike but they do similar things on YouTube for most every show now and it's hard to keep up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my main problem with UFC matchmaking right now is putting so many promising prospects against each other or really tough opposition too early. You can't treat all of them with kids gloves but they do not tend to give them easy paths to stardom. Then there's a lack of narratives going on too. There aren't clear cut, logical steps to a title when it's all last minute, helter skelter "let's get the biggest possible fight right now" type of stuff. It's shortsighted in a lot of ways and that's no more evident than their killing off the prestige of titles the past 2 or 3 years.

Looking at Zane Simon's roster list and holy shit... Talk about weird UFC records: Dustin Poirier is 15-5 with 1 no contest in the UFC. Cerrone is 26-10. 

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11 hours ago, username said:

 

I would say less try harder and just try something, anything different.  The approach they've taken for the last few years really hasn't produced anything and like... they've got over 200 fighters under contract I believe.  Even by dumb luck a few of those should connect but it seems like since TUF has gone cold they are kinda frozen and unsure what to actually do other that heavily focus on pretty people and hey, that produced interest and moderate results!  It being hard doesn't mean you should just shrug your shoulders and hope something falls into your lap, if success is unlikely you put as many eggs in as many different baskets as possible.

A large part of this is luck as much effort as they put in. They knew McGregor was going to be big, but they didn't foresee he would be THAT big. Same with Ronda. Moreover, they were able to use a mid level lightweight and basically an also ran in Nate Diaz to put McGregor on another level. Something that an Edgar or Rafael dos Anjos fight couldn't do.

I get what username and supremebve are saying. You need people to be on the Nate Diaz level to propel those folks to the next level. I certainly agree with that sentiment, but the problem is the UFC (I argue the sport overall but since UFC = MMA to most) needs a facelift. They can create mid level stars, but under the Fox brand, it's going to be very difficult as we've seen. Fox just wants a ton of content and with 600+ fighters under contract, the UFC for the last several years has been happy enough to oblige. Fox wanted the UFC and they got the UFC, meaning they got the UFC brand and the fights and TV production that come with it. Just like the sale, I think people were questioning how different the UFC product would be. If you think about how long it's been since they came to Fox, nothing changed really. Besides Goldie being gone and having their own standalone streaming service instead of depending on Facebook, everything pretty much stayed the same. The sale changed very little (something I explained when news of the sale and who was trying to put in their bid came out) too besides a bunch of folks who had a cult following online losing their job because WME buying them out made their jobs obsolete. I think people were so scared about outside non MMA people interfering with the UFC that it clouded the problems they may have had with the UFC. So my point isn't that the UFC shouldn't try harder to build folks up as it is the UFC has been allowed to do "more of the same" since they got in their rhythm with Spike. That was a decade ago with like half the roster size and a lot more credibility with their fighters. Fast forward six or seven years later, their biggest stars were people who had already been around awhile and two folks in McGregor and Rousey who already had pre-existing fanbases. They've tried "harder" but if you only know the one way, you can't really expect different results. I think everyone knows that old saying. Plus, I don't think Fox or anyone behind the scenes were motivated to force them to find another way. 

I think the matchmaking has been their saving grace too since they've managed to get a lot from a roster were a good number of fighters should still be on the local regional scene or LFA. The problem is you also need stability all around. As much talent as they have, you only really need to have one or two fighters you're pushing in every division. The conflict the UFC is dealing with is if Sage Northcutt can draw a 1M+ against a Fight Pass undercard fighter in Thibault Gouti on FS1 in the opener and be the highest peak on a card going against the goddamn Olympics and NBA All-Star Game, how much do you invest in a lightweight or welterweight prospect people just won't get behind? There is such a thing as spreading yourself thin. I'm not saying you quit pushing those fighters. Not at all, but I think they realize the fans are picking and choosing who they rally behind. So that's who they put their largest investment in UNTIL the prospects who can actually fight at a high level prove that they're the real deal. I think they will take a flyer out on a Cynthia Calvillo, Tai Tuivasa, or somebody like that, but that's basically the limit. There ain't going to be anymore Roger Huertas because they don't have the card space anymore to do that. You have to have a certain level of legitimacy. I don't think that's necessarily "anything different", but it's a step in the right direction in that you lessen the chance the house of cards comes all the way down. You're able to rebuild off a loss, blowing weight, a lackluster performance, or in many cases in this era, a failed drug test.

However, I think the only way they can build on that and continue in that right direction is to get off Fox. I don't think the Fox era of the UFC is bad, but they didn't add to the UFC's momentum as much they had the UFC burn up all of theirs until we've reached limbo waiting for a new deal. If Fox only plans to give a sizable increase to the UFC and just continue as normal, that's really really bad for folks expecting different. That plays into everything else whether it's the production, what goes on PPV, etc. I think I heard Meltzer imply that the current negotiations because the offers right now are in the 250M or more range might lead to less shows overall, but it also sounds like that's still in the air until the talks move into the advanced stage and also find out who it's going to be. They have to find a suitor who wants to give them a ton of money so they don't have to do a bunch of cards and also wants to do something different with the UFC. That's the ONLY way you get something different. It's not like wrestling where you have this long, storied history prior to going national/mainstream and also different methods promoters and bookers people used to get successful results. In North America, the UFC is the only successful MMA model. Right now, the problem is the UFC is copying themselves because no one in the entire sport knows anything different. That's a tremendous problem. The only way to solve that is to create an entirely new model and not look to what they did on Spike or early on Fox. That's over and done with it. Been time to move on from that. You also can't redo PRIDE and K-1. That ship sailed ten plus years ago. Whomever gets that next deal has to be invested in the UFC to the point where they change what the UFC is without changing its potential. What people want isn't going to happen with the network sitting down and just waiting for the UFC to get super hot again and believe the sport's buzz is cyclical. That's extremely dangerous thinking. If you've got problems now, it can always get worse.

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Just chiming in to say that UFC could have marketed Stipe more than they did since he does have a good personality, he has a background that folksy types love, and he's a hell of a fighter.

The problem there is how do you market a fighter like that when they don't appear every week? Injuries happen and fights are called off. Someone loses and it messes everything up. Or someone takes a significant amount of time off. 

You don't want to lose credibility either because what good does it do you to throw a lot of weight behind someone, tell everyone that this is a must watch fighter, and they get starched, submitted, or lose a boring decision? Then you just look like a dope and why should anyone believe you the next time you tell them to watch someone fight?

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55 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Just chiming in to say that UFC could have marketed Stipe more than they did since he does have a good personality, he has a background that folksy types love, and he's a hell of a fighter.

The problem there is how do you market a fighter like that when they don't appear every week? Injuries happen and fights are called off. Someone loses and it messes everything up. Or someone takes a significant amount of time off. 

You don't want to lose credibility either because what good does it do you to throw a lot of weight behind someone, tell everyone that this is a must watch fighter, and they get starched, submitted, or lose a boring decision? Then you just look like a dope and why should anyone believe you the next time you tell them to watch someone fight?

That's happened rinse repeat so many times over the last several years. That's why it's fortunate Goldie and Rogan got broken up. You got one guy saying X fighter has this high level skill and the guy in the PBP role doesn't have enough knowledge to check him on it. Rogan fits his role, but you need someone to also check the color commentator. Yeah, it works when Rogan flat out refuses to accept Travis Lutter is the Michael Jordan of BJJ. However, you also need someone to tell Rogan (not that this happened exactly but it's just an example) that just because Goran Reljic trains with Mirko CroCop...he ain't fucking prime Mirko CroCop.

I will use Jim Lampley this weekend as example. As much as I dislike Lampley in certain ways, he still is awesome at properly conveying what's happening as a PBP commentator. There was a fight on the Boxing After Dark card underneath the main event between Carlos Cuadras and McWilliams Arroyo. Lampley let everyone know in no uncertain terms that as much as it is a big fight on HBO between two smaller fighters below 118 pounds, it was also very much a crossroads fight moreso for Cuadras than Arroyo. As they noted, Arroyo himself had been off for almost two years due to career mismanagement and the result of the hurricane in Puerto Rico. From the very beginning when the fighters came out, Lampley talked about how Cuadras kept changing head trainers (his newest trainer is Abel Sanchez who trains Gennady Golovkin and cruiserweight champ Murat Gassiev) and how many people believe that's a sign of fighters playing the blame game as soon as they lose and not taking responsibility. I mean if this was the UFC, someone would say that changing teams automatically makes that fighter a better fighter and gives them a new lease on their career. Nope, Lampley made it clear that the fight itself is going to determine whether Cuadras isn't accepting responsibility for his last two performances or there is at least some validity in what he told the HBO commentary team in the production meeting. They can't just take his word for it. Moreover, Lampley brought up the horrific backne on the upper back of Cuadras, how he has had that his entire career, and how people believe that's a sign of PED usage. Now, I didn't like that it was a moment for Lampley and Kellerman to suck up to VADA testing but you take the good with the bad I guess.

Context is as much helpful putting over fighters (especially new and unknown) as the fights themselves. That's the solution when you might not see a fighter for two years like a McWilliams Arroyo. I need a reresher on who the fuck this guy is so bring me up to speed. Don't act like I know the guy. Also be honest. I believe it was Kellerman who said people accept that McJoe Arroyo, the brother of McWilliams,  is the better and more successful fighter. You can say that someone is awesome and all that, but it needs to be saved when it's meaningful. All the accolades on that particular broadcast went to Donnie Nietes, who had his first fight on HBO and who they wanted to build up just in case he returned, and the main event fighters Sor Rungvisai and Juan Francisco Estrada. It paid off because Nietes had a good (late) stoppage win in the opening fight and the main event was very entertaining. That's how commentary and advertising of fighters should ideally work. Cuadras and Arroyo had a fun, close competitive fight, but they didn't oversell it like the winner is about to be the next big contender. The winner moves a little closer to facing a titlist probably, and the loser has to go back to the drawing board. Simple as that.

I like the crew of commentators the UFC has now and they still have to do a little shilling which is fine. However, if you just call the fights to get people amped, you leave out so much stuff. That's why Stann was so good. He wasn't at the Lampley level (or like Larry Merchant recalling shit pristinely from the 1940s and 50s when he was a teenager), but he definitely showed you he was paying attention.

 

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20 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The thing is no one has ever had explained what try harder is.

Here are a few things they aren't doing enough that would help them.  They rank all of their fighters, so identify all the guys between 11-20 and put them on all of the FS1 shows. Unless they are injured, those guys need to be fighting often...like 3-4 times a year.  Put these guys on television, let them sink or swim, and the guys who swim will have a following.  Once they break through, put them on prefight shows, post fight shows, interview them during events, and make sure people recognize them as someone they should be paying attention to. 

Lately, they've done very well with a couple guys, but have completely failed some others.  This weekend's fight between Emmett and Stephens was the perfect example of the type of guys who have nothing going for them, but the fact they are exciting fighters who people are starting to recognize.  Stephens is a guy who could legitimately get a title shot in the near future.  4 of his last 5 fights were on FS1, and the one that wasn't was supposed to be.  He is a fun fighter who will win some and lose some, but he's also someone fans recognize and like to watch.  He's not a star, he's just a guy who people recognize and that matters.  Mike Perry is a guy who we've seen enough that people recognize him and want to see his fights.  He has an exciting style and he has a crazy personality that people are starting to follow.  Josh Emmett, just won the biggest fight of his career in devastating fashion, putting him in the cage with Jeremy Stephens on basic cable is a great way to see if he has what it takes to become a contender.  You know what really helped Josh Emmett?  Daniel Cormier saying that his left hook knockout is perhaps the most devastating left hook knockout in UFC history.  I don't know if it is or it isn't, but the fact that two credible announcers are putting it in the conversation matters.  Those are great uses of the roster, and their platform on FS1.

On the other side are guys like Darren Till who I outlined earlier in the thread.  There is not a single fighter in the Welterweight top 10 who has a fight scheduled.  Carlos Condit is the highest ranked fighter in the division with a fight scheduled, and that isn't until April.  They have a whole roster full of guys who he could fight, but he's sitting around twiddling his thumbs while living in a relative's basement.  He is a good young fighter, a fun personality, and he's perhaps the best prospect on the roster, and no one knows his name and he isn't being given the opportunity to make a name or to make some money. 

Anthony Pettis is fighting Michael Chiesa, why?  Don't get me wrong, that is probably going to be an entertaining fight, but what does either of them gain if they beat the other?  Wouldn't both of those guys be better served fighting Beneil Dariush(I know he already lost to Chiesa) or Rashid Magomedov?  Pettis is a former champion, who has name value and a win against him means something.  Just being in the cage with a former champion means that people should probably pay attention to who you are and what you're doing.  Chielsa is a guy who was on The Ultimate Fighter, has a bit of a name and is a credible test for any up and coming fighter.  Putting those guys against each other doesn't really help either of them.  What is next if Pettis wins? How about Chiesa?  Won't those dudes just be the same guy with one more win?  One more win doesn't mean as much to either guy as a streak of wins would mean, so put them in fights where they either put together multiple wins or they lose to someone who is moving up the card.  Putting those guys against each other just lessens one of their profiles without significantly raising the winner's profile.  

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I just can't see why WME-IMG can't set aside a budget or more money to financially build up some of their other top fighters and put some more of the marketing machine behind them.  

8 years ago, you still had to get tons of shows across Spike TV and Versus when UFC started putting fighters on there, plus the WEC.  Yet, the UFC was not so reliant on such meaningless title fights on PPVs where they are desperate to scramble to put together pointless and tiresome interim title fights.  It wasn't so unheard of for UFC to have non-title PPV main events. Now one-fight main cards are starting to become the norm, and the UFC is desperate to make sure there is at least one title fight even if it's a fake, meaningless interim title.

McGregor is a non-factor at this point. Ronda Rousey is going to WWE.  Even if Lesnar fights again in the UFC, he's a massive liability who is 40 years old. Start building up Tony Ferguson, Khabib Nurmagomedov, and Max Holloway as your top stars. 

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

 Once they break through, put them on prefight shows, post fight shows, interview them during events, and make sure people recognize them as someone they should be paying attention to. 

It's called UFC Tonight. I'm not seeing people here clamor about watching UFC Tonight. I think they also do that on UFC Insider or whatever that show is called now.

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

 This weekend's fight between Emmett and Stephens was the perfect example of the type of guys who have nothing going for them, but the fact they are exciting fighters who people are starting to recognize.  Stephens is a guy who could legitimately get a title shot in the near future.  4 of his last 5 fights were on FS1, and the one that wasn't was supposed to be.  He is a fun fighter who will win some and lose some, but he's also someone fans recognize and like to watch.  He's not a star, he's just a guy who people recognize and that matters.  Mike Perry is a guy who we've seen enough that people recognize him and want to see his fights.  He has an exciting style and he has a crazy personality that people are starting to follow.  Josh Emmett, just won the biggest fight of his career in devastating fashion, putting him in the cage with Jeremy Stephens on basic cable is a great way to see if he has what it takes to become a contender.  You know what really helped Josh Emmett?  Daniel Cormier saying that his left hook knockout is perhaps the most devastating left hook knockout in UFC history.  I don't know if it is or it isn't, but the fact that two credible announcers are putting it in the conversation matters.  Those are great uses of the roster, and their platform on FS1.

Here is where point 1 meets point 2 though. The people who are usually available to fight several times a year are people like Jeremy Stephens and Josh Emmett.  Stephens vs. Do Hoo Choi popped a good rating and the overnight ratings for this Orlando card at least surpassed the Charlotte card last month, which came in pretty low.

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

On the other side are guys like Darren Till who I outlined earlier in the thread.  There is not a single fighter in the Welterweight top 10 who has a fight scheduled.  Carlos Condit is the highest ranked fighter in the division with a fight scheduled, and that isn't until April.  They have a whole roster full of guys who he could fight, but he's sitting around twiddling his thumbs while living in a relative's basement.  He is a good young fighter, a fun personality, and he's perhaps the best prospect on the roster, and no one knows his name and he isn't being given the opportunity to make a name or to make some money. 

Woodley is out until July/August. RDA is facing him so that puts him out of the running. Wonderboy's is hurt and already turned that fight down. Maia, Lawler, and Masvidal are coming off losses. God knows what the hell is up with Covington. Usman just fought last month so he might get a fight made soon. Ponzi seems to be deadset on fighting Chile on 5/19 and against either Cerrone or Wonderboy.  Basically it's Neil Magny or wait until Usman is ready. Plus, I don't see people knocking down the door to face Till. Once he beat Cerrone in the fashion he beat him, he basically doomed himself. Unless, worse comes to worst and it seems like it's headed that way based on the options, they are not going to give him a step back from Cerrone. 

With Griffin beating Perry in convincing fashion the other night, I think that's a good option if they can't find anyone quality coming off a win.

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

Anthony Pettis is fighting Michael Chiesa, why?  Don't get me wrong, that is probably going to be an entertaining fight, but what does either of them gain if they beat the other?  Wouldn't both of those guys be better served fighting Beneil Dariush(I know he already lost to Chiesa) or Rashid Magomedov?

You answered your own question. Magomedov didn't do himself any favors by having that boring fight with Dariush. They put him in that fight for a reason and he severely underperformed. Plus, the Bobby Green fight was the last fight on his deal and it seems like he ain't signed a new one. Dariush is fighting this weekend and was set to Bobby Green before he pulled out. So that's the level they see Dariush at.

2 hours ago, supremebve said:

  What is next if Pettis wins? How about Chiesa?  Won't those dudes just be the same guy with one more win?  

Fight another established, entertaining lightweight. It goes back to what I said about Arroyo and Cuadras. If people know why the fight is happening (especially a crossroads fight), you don't have to pretend it's something other than that. Let the fight happen and move on from there. They tried raising the profile of Anthony Pettis. It was called the year 2014, and people have since learned more about Anthony Pettis and also saw the various peaks and valleys of his career. So it's okay for whomever to be the same guy. When we talk about known quantities, we're far past the profile being raised stage. Just let them have a fun, thrilling fight and then take the appropriate next step. 

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8 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

I just can't see why WME-IMG can't set aside a budget or more money to financially build up some of their other top fighters and put some more of the marketing machine behind them.  

Marketing them how exactly?

10 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

8 years ago, you still had to get tons of shows across Spike TV and Versus when UFC started putting fighters on there, plus the WEC. 

I think that's a liberal use of a ton of shows when NOW we get a ton of shows.

Also, look how fast the apple turned on Versus where they weren't getting huge ratings anyway. We went from what? Jones vs. Vera and Jones vs. Matyushenko to like Hardy vs. Lytle and Barry vs. Kongo fairly quickly. They didn't get a whole bunch of utility off the Vs. shows because the card quality went down so fast.

I'm sure what the WEC has to do with this because they were going to be folded into the UFC.

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12 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

They have to find a suitor who wants to give them a ton of money so they don't have to do a bunch of cards and also wants to do something different with the UFC. That's the ONLY way you get something different.

This is a very salient point.  Back when UFC started its hot streak with TUF those cards were relatively stacked due to their being so much less of them.  It gave them a better opportunity to sell a number of fighters at the same time as long as they had at least one marketable fight already in play.  I'm pretty sure that Liddell/Couture II ppv that piggybacked off of TUF 1 was many peoples introduction to GSP, there was a second title fight on the card that ended up being a rather memorable one for Hughes, etc.

Of course now I don't think you could pay me enough to sit through an entire season of TUF...

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12 hours ago, username said:

This is a very salient point.  Back when UFC started its hot streak with TUF those cards were relatively stacked due to their being so much less of them.  It gave them a better opportunity to sell a number of fighters at the same time as long as they had at least one marketable fight already in play.  I'm pretty sure that Liddell/Couture II ppv that piggybacked off of TUF 1 was many peoples introduction to GSP, there was a second title fight on the card that ended up being a rather memorable one for Hughes, etc.

Of course now I don't think you could pay me enough to sit through an entire season of TUF...

I don't have as many problems as other people have with TUF, but I think after a handful of seasons on FS1, they should have transitioned to another show and ditched TUF. I mean they started doing the contender series thing just last summer and that's been in the works for years.

Instead of doing TUF finales, you can slide all the best upper to mid level prospects and potential prospects onto their own cards ala Strikeforce Challengers (or ShoBox where that concept came from). Then after 1-2 wins, just graduate them onto to the big cards whether it's a PPV or big TV card. For example, I just saw that Tom Duquesnoy is facing Terrion Ware in London. There is no reason you couldn't have six or seven more of those fights on one card. They actually have like 20x the talent Strikeforce did at the time. I mean Jordan Johnson vs. Adam Milstead is happening this Saturday. That's another one of those fights. Mackenzie Dern vs. Ashley Yoder, also happening this weekend, could be another one. Same with O'Malley vs. Soukhamthath. Those are fights all happening in the span of two weeks or so.  You can do those cards once a month or bi-weekly if you want to. If people want to bring old stuff back, this one makes the most sense. If you know who the best prospects are, you really don't need TUF anymore. I mean there are plenty of folks who had success on TUF with less than stellar records who actually made it to the finals or even won, but those people likely need to be on the regional scene a little bit longer. I mean this probably would benefit someone like Nicco Montano greatly who bypassed Invicta. Not only would she get more experience, but you can carefully book her the way you want. They can have developmental contracts (whether it's LFA, CES, Invicta, Titan FC, Combate Americas, Cage Warriors, Pancrase)  and then bring them up to the cards with the other prospects. It's not zero to sixty where your first fight is Roxanne Modafferi and then Valentina Shevchenko. They get real UFC experience because they're either fighting another prospect like on ShoBox or fighting someone on the way down on the bubble who can answer some questions about them (think Alves vs. Millender). In addition, they're not clogging up valuable PPV slots. Mick Maynard could do all the matchmaking, and it would run smoothly.

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Great idea and it's also a good tool for fans seeing fighters make tangible strides when they graduate to the main roster. Those kind of narratives and goals help give some weight to fights rather than just two nameless guys fighting in an empty arena before anybody arrives. 

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1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

Great idea and it's also a good tool for fans seeing fighters make tangible strides when they graduate to the main roster. Those kind of narratives and goals help give some weight to fights rather than just two nameless guys fighting in an empty arena before anybody arrives. 

The only real issue I have with a "challenger series" type show is that I don't know if there is market for more MMA right now.  Hardcore MMA fans have enough MMA, the issue is that there seem to be fewer and fewer hardcore fans.  The real question is how to keep the casuals coming back, not how to provide more fights for the hardcores.  The people in this thread would love that show, but that dude who will tag along with his friends to watch the fights wouldn't spend a second watching that.  They have to catch the casuals while they are watching, a new show with lesser known fighters isn't really going to do that.  They have enough platforms, they just need to use them more productively. 

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

The only real issue I have with a "challenger series" type show is that I don't know if there is market for more MMA right now.  Hardcore MMA fans have enough MMA, the issue is that there seem to be fewer and fewer hardcore fans.  The real question is how to keep the casuals coming back, not how to provide more fights for the hardcores.  The people in this thread would love that show, but that dude who will tag along with his friends to watch the fights wouldn't spend a second watching that.  They have to catch the casuals while they are watching, a new show with lesser known fighters isn't really going to do that.  They have enough platforms, they just need to use them more productively. 

I think it comes down to having enough big names to fill up a PPV show every six weeks or a big network card every eight weeks. That would be more my concern. The challenger series would be on FS1, FS2 , NBC Sports, or a ESPN 2 and of course Fight Pass.  So basically nothing would change on that front except Lyoto Machida isn't main eventing that card. All those guys would be on the bigger cards. The concern wouldn't be about ratings anyway because if you can keep it somewhere between 500k-675k average, you're already ahead of the curve. Hell, if Sage Northcutt or PVZ can headline the card since they're both at a stage where it would still be feasible, you can pop a decent rating enough and not worry about overall fan interest. On Fight Pass, that's nothing you have to worry about anyway and that will probably only be 1 or 2 cards at most on FP since they already have a ton of content. Most importantly, the UFC as a brand has more leverage than AXS TV, GoFightLive, or any other platform these guys can fight on BEFORE going to the UFC. Right now, all these fighters are coming in naked to the average fan period unless they had a cup of tea in like Bellator or WSOF. AXS ain't doing 450k for a LFA card. They shouldn't fight for Joe Schmoe who wasn't going to watch anyway. If the cards stay quality, the matchmaking is good, and you have the best fighters yet to make a big splash, you can basically do WEC or Invicta at a much higher level without doing straight up talent raids. A guy like Darren Till is stuck in a conundrum because he already has moved passed the Nicolas Dalby, lesser prospect opponents and the bigger names don't want to fight him. Worst case scenario, you get him a stay busy fight on one of those cards and get him another one for the highlight reel. You use to have world champion boxers take ten rounders between title fights on Tuesday Night Fights and it was accepted. This way it's not a case where he is too big a name to fight another Nicolas Dalby if no one else is available. In addition, you get an added bonus of seeing a Mackenzie Dern or Dominick Reyes underneath. Eight or nine PPVs (ten fights max), four network specials (ten fights max) , two or three Fight Pass only cards (11-12 fights max to help with contractual obligations), ten or eleven challenger cards (seven or eight fights max) is a lot better than the very shaky model we have now. That's very doable. If you want to knock PPV down to seven or eight cards when star power is lean, you can do that.

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That kind of Challengers show likely wouldn't draw much on its own, but if it allows the ppvs and "normal" FS1 cards to be a bit more packed in terms of legit fighters and known names it would likely be a fair trade.  It also allows another level to better separate the wheat from the chaff, giving them a better idea who to invest in and who is less likely to pan out.

The thing you'd lose from TUF is hyping up the eventual coaches battle, but I think that has lost much of its effectiveness by now regardless.

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4 minutes ago, username said:

That kind of Challengers show likely wouldn't draw much on its own, but if it allows the ppvs and "normal" FS1 cards to be a bit more packed in terms of legit fighters and known names it would likely be a fair trade.  It also allows another level to better separate the wheat from the chaff, giving them a better idea who to invest in and who is less likely to pan out.

The thing you'd lose from TUF is hyping up the eventual coaches battle, but I think that has lost much of its effectiveness by now regardless.

If you did TUF everytime you had coaches who had legitimate beef like a Faber and McGregor,  it would make sense. However, if you start every season with guys watching fights cageside with no sense of animosity, it defeats the purpose of building towards a fight. The primary focus at the beginning of the season should be the coaches because no one knows who the fighters are yet. Once the personalities and human interest bits are thrown out there, then focus on the fighters on the teams. 

Otherwise, TUF should only be brought out for emergency situations where it makes sense. 

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Should be a great fight between two top fighters coming off tough losses. If Barboza can stop Lee's takedowns, that will show how godly Khalabeeb's wrestling skills are. Lee could be one of the few people to not get completely outclassed by Khalabeeb in the grappling department so I'm interested to see how this turns out beyond my undying love for Edson.

I've already professed how excited I am about Rivera/Moraes. Beauty in the making.

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