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JANUARY 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

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1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

Honestly, even with NJPW there's a difference where there's still a sliding scale, they still accept fans are gonna like who they like- but if NJPW, itself, is the face, they'll accept what they give them (and even if they do a "WTF?"booking decision- like Naito not winning at WK last year-  they say "Well, that sucked- but I trust one day Naito's time is going to come.") 

With WWE, it's basically a post-kayfabe system where it's "nope. My favorite was time tested on the indy scene, so I don't care about their disposition- to ME, they're the hero"...but also "Kayfabe is for marks. Any storyline you make on TV, any match you make on TV? It doesn't matter. I reject your reality and substitute my own, and my reality is 'the story of this top indy superstar who's got to navigate the backstage politics of WWE on his or her way to win the World Title in the main event of Wrestlemania." 

It even causes problems in storyline for it to make sense -like right now: Becky Lynch wins the Royal Rumble  and finally has her chance at Ronda Rousey. SHE WON. On paper, it makes sense- she's no longer the underdog, she's come into her own, and now she's able to fight the final boss head on and be her equal.

But in the post-kayfabe world, they have to shoehorn Charlotte still having a problem and fighting it- because the fans decided their storyline is "Vince McMahonbearpig  and his evil sidekick Boogeyman Beaver  is giving Charlotte Flair the world because she's a Flair and Vince has a fetish for blondes, so he's holding back m'Becky Lynch even though she's so TALENTED because he hates us and doesn't want us to be happy!"...so even if the story makes sense for Becky to get a one-on-one match with Rousey, the fans' kayfabe ALSO keeps Charlotte in the match, EVEN THOUGH BECKY DISPATCHED HER.

I see what you are saying in the first couple of paragraphs, and agree we are living in a post-kayfabe world (or more technically, a new kind of self-delusional kayfabe) but you lost me by the end. Are you stating that the fans' perception of their favorites & villains is causing the addition of Charlotte into Lynch v. Rousey? Who is the "they" in the first sentence, last paragraph?

- RAF

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2 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The gimmick he had in NXT just before being put with The Shield was basically that: a premier athlete born into a great wrestling family who wore tailored suits and waved his big watch in everyone's face while saying "You're on Roman Reigns' time." Once Roman was on the main roster, they took that gimmick, diluted it, and gave it to Baron Corbin with the whole "All I had to do is make one call and got a contract" spiel. 

Samoa Joe's rebuttal to Corbin was great. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was along the lines of "That's the difference between you and me. You had to make a call to get into nxt, while they called me.".

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28 minutes ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

I see what you are saying in the first couple of paragraphs, and agree we are living in a post-kayfabe world (or more technically, a new kind of self-delusional kayfabe) but you lost me by the end. Are you stating that the fans' perception of their favorites & villains is causing the addition of Charlotte into Lynch v. Rousey? Who is the "they" in the first sentence, last paragraph?

- RAF

Honestly, that is what I'm saying.

The "they" would be the fans' perception, and honestly it's an issue for Lynch in this case. 

Becky Lynch has, in kayfabe, dispatched Charlotte many times. She dispatched her at HIAC when she won the title. And then dispatched her AGAIN at Evolution when she beat her for good there. And then, dispatched her AGAIN when she beat her in the Royal Rumble. Heck, at Survivor Series when Becky Lynch personally picked Charlotte Flair to replace her in the Rousey match, it was obvious.

In kayfabe, Becky Lynch has proven once and for all that she's BEATEN Charlotte Flair, that she has gotten everything she wanted from her. She won the title from her, she proved she can beat Charlotte, she can beat her any time she wants, and tell the truth...she is even willing to consider being Charlotte's friend again now that she has proven 'yes, I am absolutely in the same league as Charlotte Flair, and now we can stand together as EQUALS'.

In the fans' kayfabe: As long as Charlotte Flair is around, she's in the fans' head that "Vince is TOTALLY going to give Charlotte Becky's match because she's a Flair and she's blonde and he HATES us", and that means no matter what Becky does to dispatch Charlotte...she's never going to be perceived as being in Charlotte's league. Becky Lynch will ALWAYS have to dispatch Charlotte Flair, because no matter how much Becky beats Charlotte- when they wake up in the morning, Becky Lynch will still be Becky Lynch, and Charlotte Flair will still be Charlotte Flair, and that means the fans will ALWAYS believe that the other shoe's about to drop on Becky Lynch.

This is also the big problem with the era as now- no matter how much the fans hate people like Roman/Charlotte, at the end of the day: Perception is reality, and no amount of booking can put someone IN THE FANS' HEAD. Once you're in someone's head- even if they hate you, they perceive you as THE STAR, so they can be buried and booked into oblivion and they're still THE STAR because people treat them as one.

Likewise, the fans may prefer an underdog, but they'll never perceive that person as having MADE IT, so they'll never truly accept that their favorite has MADE IT, both because they will still wait for the next thing they haven't done  to prove they made it...and partially, the fans don't want to tell themselves their hero MADE IT (because saying "my favorite is a star" means saying "I'm cheering for the biggest star in the company", and that means saying "I'm just another mark." Similar to in regular sports, where there's more glory in cheering for a lesser team than for the most popular team- there's almost more glory in rooting for lowcarders than rooting for the top star in the company.) 

 

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So, the mistaken kayfabe (as opposed to the storyline kayfabe, which is itself a fictional version of a theatrical reality) of these hardcore fans is driving Mr. McMahon, HHH, the booking & writing committees to adjust angles, feuds and PPVs - nay WrestleMania itself! -  to this minority's perceptions? This is some wild and wooly through the looking glass stuff indeed...

- RAF

p.s. - The exposure of the idea of "kayfabe" (more properly "kay fabe") into the mainstream (or at least the internet) has diluted its original usages, to my ear. In many places, I see the confusion of "kay fabe" for "working" - there is a difference between subtlety and obfuscation via misuse. 

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When did people start saying "Vince has lost it" or "wow, WWE creative is shit".  I know it's been going on as long as I've been posting on message boards but maybe it's been going on even long than that.  

I wasn't on boards in 1999/2000 so I knew watching WCW back then it was awful and I stopped watching it most weeks but I didn't realize others did as well except my friends who also stopped watching it.  I had no clue about ratings and booking.  

By 2003 Triple H and Evolution had become a thing and that's really when I first remember people saying WWE is shit and the booking is shit and "burials" etc. 

I don't think WWE has been shit since 2003 by the way.  There's been some good years.  I remember loving much of 2012 as an example. 

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56 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

When did people start saying "Vince has lost it" or "wow, WWE creative is shit". 

Five minutes before Wrestlemania 17 went off the air.

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3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Samoa Joe's rebuttal to Corbin was great. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was along the lines of "That's the difference between you and me. You had to make a call to get into nxt, while they called me.".

That was pretty much word for word what he said. And yet more proof that Samoa Joe>all of us

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1 hour ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

So, the mistaken kayfabe (as opposed to the storyline kayfabe, which is itself a fictional version of a theatrical reality) of these hardcore fans is driving Mr. McMahon, HHH, the booking & writing committees to adjust angles, feuds and PPVs - nay WrestleMania itself! -  to this minority's perceptions? This is some wild and wooly through the looking glass stuff indeed...

I think that they'd push Charlotte either way for obvious reasons, but it adds to motivation.

Becky fans want Becky to beat Charlotte. And no win will be good enough for them because they think that at any point Charlotte can usurp Becky's place. So WWE can run this angle however times they want it and Becky fans will show up to support her. But as a result storyline gets weird because Becky has beaten her multiple times and it is not clear why this match needs to happen again, and again.

It is kinda similar to Daniel's situation as well. To his hardcore fans WWE has fucked him and continues to fuck him with this stupid heel angle. From what we have heard Vince actually likes him and has given him good contract. But to his fans Vince did it only because he had to, in reality he hates Daniel and wants him buried.

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I disagree quite a bit.

If they totally separated Charlotte and Becky right now, the fans would stay hot for Becky as long as they book her quality opponents and keep her strong. You know how easy it would be to slip Ronda into the role of "person WWE wants over Becky"? 

Of course, in a perfect world, Becky would go from WrestleMania into a feud with Tessa Blanchard, but I digress.

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