UFC 203: Miočić vs. Overeem (9/10/2016) - Cleveland, OH (Quicken Loans Arena)

[Casey]

Just let Punk fight cans on FOX cards and the occasional PPV if his stock hasn't disappeared already. I love it when people pull the "have respect for the sport" card. Why? UFC has it's very roots in shit like this. This isn't James Toney coming in and talking shit about MMA/UFC. This is someone who actually likes it and wants to keep on. What's so bad about that? I don't think it's hurting anyone, except for the meatheads who think Punk is somehow tarnishing the pristine legacy of the UFC or something. Salty.

[Niners Fan in CT]

11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Except people were saying this from the beginning though. Gall was someone who was maybe 9 months to a year away from being the UFC. If you pick any person on the WWE roster now who can cut to 170 or 185, they can't beat anyone like that save for maybe those who have legitimate amateur wrestling experience. Even then...it's dicey because they haven't grappled against someone who is legitimately a great submission grappler. To accept a fight with no prior martials arts experience (whether it's BJJ, muay thai, folkstyle wrestling, boxing, judo or TMA) with someone like that is extremely crazy especially at 37 years old. It would be like the guy who lives next door challenging a young kid who is on the USA Boxing team to a professional four rounder. He is going to get fucked up. That's what's going to happen. Everyone knows that. Now if he wanted to fight some scrub on the same level physically, that would be fine. That's basically what Rogan said. I mean it would be putrid to watch, but hey, it's CM Punk. That didn't stop people from watching Kimbo, Dada 5000, Ken Shamrock, and 7 thousand year old Royce Gracie. Batista did it so people would be fine with Punk doing it. Against Gall? Yeah, that went 100% how it was going to go.

 

I'm sure Punk knew all of that though and his team definitely knew that. Punk said often "hey, I will probably get my ass kicked and if people will pay to watch that, thank you" and he sure did. I just don't think it's really being straight with the viewers to claim that Punk is unaware. That fuels the fire of all these "get this fake tough guy out of here!" usually coming from people who are also fake tough guys. I read MMA sites, I'm not a huge fan but I buy probably 3-4 PPVs a year. I watch some of the FOX specials. In my reading of MMA sites the big thing about Lesnar was that he was a fake tough guy also. Then people found out well yeah..  he's not.  For all the people who say wrestling fans are defensive, a lot of MMA posters over on Sherdog and the like are VERY defensive. Joe doesn't need to be catering to that crowd.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'm sure Punk knew all of that though and his team definitely knew that. Punk said often "hey, I will probably get my ass kicked and if people will pay to watch that, thank you" and he sure did. I just don't think it's really being straight with the viewers to claim that Punk is unaware. That fuels the fire of all these "get this fake tough guy out of here!" usually coming from people who are also fake tough guys. I read MMA sites, I'm not a huge fan but I buy probably 3-4 PPVs a year. I watch some of the FOX specials. In my reading of MMA sites the big thing about Lesnar was that he was a fake tough guy also. Then people found out well yeah..  he's not.  For all the people who say wrestling fans are defensive, a lot of MMA posters over on Sherdog and the like are VERY defensive. Joe doesn't need to be catering to that crowd.

Rogan's job isn't to stave those people off. He isn't a public relations person for Phil Brooks. His job is to be honest. If this was like a Jim Lampley or Al Bernstein, they would have had said the same exact things. Also, just because you're aware you're probably get your ass kicked does not stop from being delusional. You can't say Mickey Gall is fighting cans when you have no MMA experience whatsoever. That sounds pretty damn delusional. Rogan's point was if he wanted to do this for real, he should have fought someone with comparable experience. That way, at least you can grow from that fight and move on to the next fight if you want to go forward with this endeavor. That is way nicer than what everyone else has been saying for the past 21 months. What does a 135 second fight where he had little to no offense prove or help him going forward? You can fight random bum #5 and gain about as much experience or way more because you can actually see what you're half decent at. With Gall, he had no chance to learn anything really. Other than...you know...don't fight Mickey Gall.

[Phantom Lord]

11 minutes ago, Casey said:

Just let Punk fight cans on FOX cards and the occasional PPV if his stock hasn't disappeared already. I love it when people pull the "have respect for the sport" card. Why? UFC has it's very roots in shit like this. This isn't James Toney coming in and talking shit about MMA/UFC. This is someone who actually likes it and wants to keep on. What's so bad about that? I don't think it's hurting anyone, except for the meatheads who think Punk is somehow tarnishing the pristine legacy of the UFC or something. Salty.

Exactly. There's no reason Punk can't be doing fight nights on FS2 or Fox or whatever. I think it was said had Punk truly dedicated himself to Gracie BJJ, he might have been a Blue belt by now. But he always said he was just happy being a white belt. Punk improves, moves himself up in the world and if Gall still remains undefeated or at least good there could be money in a rematch.

[Guest Edwin]

Just read some cliffnotes on Sherdog from the post fight press conference and Punk apparently said he wanted to fight in smaller organizations, but the UFC made him a great offer.

He said he wanted to continue fighting even though he may get cut by the UFC.

[Elsalvajeloco]

In two or three years, Gall will probably be a top 20-30 welterweight. I highly doubt he is fighting Punk ever again if Punk fights again.

[Charlie M.]

11 minutes ago, Casey said:

Just let Punk fight cans on FOX cards and the occasional PPV if his stock hasn't disappeared already. I love it when people pull the "have respect for the sport" card. Why? UFC has it's very roots in shit like this. This isn't James Toney coming in and talking shit about MMA/UFC. This is someone who actually likes it and wants to keep on. What's so bad about that? I don't think it's hurting anyone, except for the meatheads who think Punk is somehow tarnishing the pristine legacy of the UFC or something. Salty.

Yes, you do seem salty.

Punk should have respect for the sport in the sense that it becomes completely self-indulgent for him to continue in UFC at this point. Who does he fight? Gall was about as low as they could realistically go on the skill level. If you go lower than Gall, you're left with someone who has no upside in UFC if they beat Punk. Should he fight someone already in UFC? That's just fucking gross and wrong on every level to allow.

[Guest Edwin]

How is Punk not respecting the sport? He said in the post fight press conference he wanted to fight in smaller organizations, but the UFC made him a great offer and he accepted it.

Also lol @ "Punk should have respect for the sport..."

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Just read some cliffnotes on Sherdog from the post fight press conference and Punk apparently said he wanted to fight in smaller organizations, but the UFC made him a great offer.

He said he wanted to continue fighting even though he may get cut by the UFC.

I believe Patrick Wyman made the point on the Sherdog roundtable. When Punk signed in 2014, UFC was coming off their worst year financially in years. Since then, they have a had multiple PPVs above million buys, broken a bunch of PPV/revenue records, and created two giant superstars. Punk is a good draw for mid level PPVs like this that can probably get to 400-500k buys, but you don't exactly need Punk now.

 

[bink_winkleman]

LOL, respect for the sport.

[Guest Edwin]

Just now, Elsalvajeloco said:

I believe Patrick Wyman made the point on the Sherdog roundtable. When Punk signed in 2014, UFC was coming off their worst year financially in years. Since then, they have a had multiple PPVs above million buys, broken a bunch of PPV/revenue records, and created two giant superstars. Punk is a good draw for mid level PPVs like this that can probably get to 400-500k buys, but you don't exactly need Punk now.

 

Agreed.

You shouldn't bring him back now, but the UFC is great at building up fighters.

They should let him steamroll 0-0 guys on UFC Fight Pass cards just to get Fight Pass some attention and to build him up as a legit fighter to the casuals who buy into anything.

Then bring him back as a rebuilt fighter and milk it for all it's worth one more time before letting him go again as he'll get steamrolled by anyone semi decent.

[Charlie M.]

You guys are silly. He got his fucking ass kicked badly by someone with very little actual experience. Respecting the sport means respecting what it takes to be even a bad MMA fighter. Continuing on and thinking at his age he's going to make some kind of great improvements and do any better isn't respecting how good actual fighters are.

[Casey]

I know Elsalvajeloco doesn't think much of Punk's drawing power (I think he'd do better on TV, personally), but I don't see the point of paying someone like CM Punk the amount of money he's probably getting just to stick him on Fight Pass cards and the such. It's gotta be on the main cards for FS1 and Fox events.

[Guest Edwin]

9 minutes ago, Charlie M. said:

You guys are silly. He got his fucking ass kicked badly by someone with very little actual experience. Respecting the sport means respecting what it takes to be even a bad MMA fighter. Continuing on and thinking at his age he's going to make some kind of great improvements and do any better isn't respecting how good actual fighters are.

You haven't been following MMA closely, have you?

How is CM Punk participating in an MMA fight any less respectful than say, José Canseco fighting? Heck it's not even disrespectful at all, specially after his post fight press conference comments. Also judging by emotional reaction and enthusiasm, it seemed like he's been taking it very serious.

Heck this is the same sport where guys have admitted to taken dives and being involved in fixed fights multiple times previously.

How is Punk actually taking it seriously any less respectful than that?

And yes, for what it's worth, José Canseco did fight in a real MMA fight in DREAM against Hong Man Choi.

[Niners Fan in CT]

15 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You can't say Mickey Gall is fighting cans when you have no MMA experience whatsoever. That sounds pretty damn delusional. Rogan's point was if he wanted to do this for real, he should have fought someone with comparable experience.

On this point, I'm pretty sure Punk was working. Saying "he's only fought cans" is just something for promotional reasons. That goes on in the build up to any fight. You're right that Punk would learn more from fighting in a lesser promotion against people with no experience but Punk was presented an opportunity and Joe knows that Punk was presented an opportunity..  nobody would have turned that down. Joe himself wouldn't turn an opportunity like that down. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Agreed.

You shouldn't bring him back now, but the UFC is great at building up fighters.

They should let him steamroll 0-0 guys on UFC Fight Pass cards just to get Fight Pass some attention and to build him up as a legit fighter to the casuals who buy into anything.

Then bring him back as a rebuilt fighter and milk it for all it's worth one more time before letting him go again as he'll get steamrolled by anyone semi decent.

If this was maybe 31 or 32 year old CM Punk, I think they would made the attempt to do that for him. Two problems though: Joe Silva was very anti stuff like this meaning only Dana would take the heat for that if it got through. In addition, he would have definitely fought someone like Mickey Gall just because Joe Silva is a spiteful tiny man. Second, Punk wasn't the star he was towards the end of his WWE run as he was six or seven years ago. So they wouldn't have signed anyway.

There is a reason UFC is doing everything to protect Sage Northcutt and not like Reza Madadi or just some random old dude on the roster. The same goes for Paige VanZant, who at least is a top 15-20 strawweight in her defense. 

[Guest Edwin]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

If this was maybe 31 or 32 year old CM Punk, I think they would made the attempt to do that for him. Two problems though: Joe Silva was very anti stuff like this meaning only Dana would take the heat for that if it got through. In addition, he would have definitely fought someone like Mickey Gall just because Joe Silva is a spiteful tiny man. Second, Punk wasn't the star he was towards the end of his WWE run as he was six or seven years ago. So they wouldn't have signed anyway.

There is a reason UFC is doing everything to protect Sage Northcutt and not like Reza Madadi or just some random old dude on the roster. The same goes for Paige VanZant, who at least in a top 15-20 strawweight in her defense. 

Yes, but Joe Silva is leaving soon.

Also there's a ton of guys fighting in SFL, for example, that Punk could walk right through easily.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but there's also that possibility if they do decide to ever role with the Punk experiment in the long run.

Also going by Dana saying that Punk's next fight shouldn't be in the UFC, I don't think it's likely going to happen, but then again, there's always the possibility like I said before.

[Fallacy!]

I knew Punk was going to get pulverized when he started in with the "I feel like I've already won just by being here" bullshit. Talk about sounding like a fucking mark.

Forget respecting the sport, have some respect for yourself. There's easier ways to make money than having your skull caved in on pay-per-view in front of millions of people.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I think we have to be careful with saying Punk could walk through anyone "easily".  We have no evidence of that. The lower level fighters in the tiniest of promotions might be too much for him. We really don't know.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

On this point, I'm pretty sure Punk was working. Saying "he's only fought cans" is just something for promotional reasons. That goes on in the build up to any fight. You're right that Punk would learn more from fighting in a lesser promotion against people with no experience but Punk was presented an opportunity and Joe knows that Punk was presented an opportunity..  nobody would have turned that down. Joe himself wouldn't turn an opportunity like that down. 

Yeah, but it's insane to say still. I know he was under tremendous pressure to promote the fight (especially after the Gall/Jackson fight where it seem like he was a bit shook), but it is incredibly out of this world to say. He also said other stuff in this vein. 

The point is whether or not Joe Rogan understands capitalism or someone capitalizing on their popularity is not really the argument. For other mismatches where people have stepped in to replace fighters against world class competition, Rogan has said the exact same things before and afterwards. In addition, he went much harder on those people (who were actually pro MMA fighters) than what he did on Punk. It's just not on the pro wrestling crossover level since this isn't 2003/2004 PRIDE FC or Bellator where the commentators just kinda look past that. Not a soul gets as defensive about that as you are with this. Rogan isn't seeking to protect pro wrestling or personalities from people that are looking vilify something. He also isn't being biased or anything like that. Everything he said he was true. You are getting upset that a commentator told the truth.

[Guest Edwin]

8 minutes ago, Fallacy! said:

I knew Punk was going to get pulverized when he started in with the "I feel like I've already won just by being here" bullshit. Talk about sounding like a fucking mark.

Forget respecting the sport, have some respect for yourself. There's easier ways to make money than having your skull caved in on pay-per-view in front of millions of people.

You only came to the conclusion he was going to get pulverized at that point? It was pretty much since he made the announcement.

Why is he being a mark? The dude did something he wanted to do. He's a huge fan of the sport, so he thought he would give it a shot just to live out something he's always wanted to do. Also what other way of doing it than being given a chance to do it on the biggest stage in the sport.

He is having respect for himself. He actually got do something he's always wanted to do.

Going based off of his reaction during his walk out where he seemed extremely enthusiastic and how enthusiastic he's been in training, I'm sure he did this for other reasons aside from the financial aspect of it.

It's like a kid who's always wanted to play in the NBA, but he knows he's not good enough to play in it, but a team gives him a chance to play in the NBA -- do you think the kid is going to turn down the opportunity because he knows he's not good enough or do you think he's still going to take the opportunity and going to give it his all?

You know everything in life isn't done solely for financial purposes...

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Yes, but Joe Silva is leaving soon.

But Punk is still 37 and I'm not sure how Ari Emanuel feels about paying a dude like that a mountain of cash.

I will say this...if the PPV does good business, he might get another shot.

If this does below 300k or somewhere around there, I doubt we see him in the UFC again.

[Fallacy!]

8 minutes ago, Edwin said:

You only came to the conclusion he was going to get pulverized at that point? It was pretty much since he made the announcement.

Why is he being a mark? The dude did something he wanted to do. He's a huge fan of the sport, so he thought he would give it a shot just to live out something he's always wanted to do. Also what other way of doing it than being given a chance to do it on the biggest stage in the sport.

He is having respect for himself. He actually got do something he's always wanted to do.

Going based off of his reaction during his walk out where he seemed extremely enthusiastic and how enthusiastic he's been in training, I'm sure he did this for other reasons aside from the financial aspect of it.

It's like a kid who's always wanted to play in the NBA, but he knows he's not good enough to play in it, but a team gives him a chance to play in the NBA -- do you think the kid is going to turn down the opportunity because he knows he's not good enough or do you think he's still going to take the opportunity and going to give it his all?

You know everything in life isn't done solely for financial purposes...

 

Ah, so you've seen Like Mike. 

Thing is, in real life Lil Bow Wow, or any other "kid who's always wanted to play in the NBA but isn't good enough" would never actually get that chance. Only in MMA, wrestling, or maybe low-level minor league baseball could a completely undeserving mark get the chance to "live out their dreams" solely based off the fact that they are rich and somewhat famous.

Oh, and if this wasn't done solely for financial purposes then he wouldn't have done it in the UFC.

[Guest Edwin]

7 minutes ago, Fallacy! said:

Only in MMA, wrestling, or maybe low-level minor league baseball, could a complete mark get the chance to "live out their dreams" solely based off the fact that they are rich and somewhat famous.

MMA is a low-level sport, it's not a highly ranked sport and things like this have happened many, many, many times before. This isn't something new and is something that's going to continue happening in MMA.

7 minutes ago, Fallacy! said:

Oh, and if this wasn't done solely for financial purposes then he wouldn't have done it in the UFC.

See:

51 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Just read some cliffnotes on Sherdog from the post fight press conference and Punk apparently said he wanted to fight in smaller organizations, but the UFC made him a great offer.

It would've been stupid for him turn them down if they made him a good offer.

[Fallacy!]

6 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Just read some cliffnotes on Sherdog from the post fight press conference and Punk apparently said he wanted to fight in smaller organizations, but the UFC made him a great offer.

----

 

It would've been stupid for him turn them down if they made him a good offer.

Soooo... why the hell are you arguing that it wasn't done for financial reasons? That's exactly what it was.

 

6 minutes ago, Edwin said:

MMA is a low-level sport, it's not a highly ranked sport and things like this have happened many, many, many times before. This isn't something new and is something that's going to continue happening in MMA.

I know... that's basically exactly what I said. So, yeah.