UFC 203: Miočić vs. Overeem (9/10/2016) - Cleveland, OH (Quicken Loans Arena)

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Edwin said:

The entire "TRAIN MMA" thing is a fiasco. I know it's a marketing scheme for gyms now as promoting that will get them more interest than promoting just being a BJJ or Muay Thai gym only. But either way you have to be good at one discipline, before you try your hand at another.

You don't have to be competent striker if you're an elite level grappler. As long as you can cut the distance and avoid getting hit with a big shoot while shooting for the takedown and successfully getting it, then you're fine.

There's tons of grapplers who've only trained briefly their stand up and have gone on to win their handful of MMA bouts.

Are we talking about guys who are going to win a handful of fights or someone who is going to be a career MMA fighter?  Being one dimensional is not practical in modern MMA if you want to make a career out of it.  Learning multiple disciplines and how to put them together is the only real way to compete against anyone over the fight pass prelim level.  You are talking about a sport that doesn't really exist any more.  In order to compete against even average UFC fighters, you need to be pretty well rounded.

[SolidGoldBomb]

On 9/11/2016 at 2:39 AM, Fallacy! said:

So he took the fight for the bigger money BECAUSE HIS DECISION WAS MOTIVATED BY MONEY. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

There's really no risk. He had know fully well he was going to get his ass beat. Hence, "I feel like I've already won" which he did - he got to cash a fat paycheck and live out his UFC mark dreams.

Regarding the "smaller promotions" - dude, Hulk Hogan claims he auditioned for Metallica. CM Punk is a pro wrestler. They lie.

If Punk seriously wanted to learn the craft and build a resume, he would have gone and done just that - fight for the smaller promotions. What do you think happened? Dana called him up and was like "Hey dude, I heard on Sherdog you were about to ink a deal with Cage of Fury, but let me slide a few million dollars into your DM's and see if that changes your mind?"

Get real.

Didn't Punk quit the WWE over money as well?  I remember him being the main guy bitching when the Network launched a couple years ago, because it was going to directly affect his PPV bonus cut. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

OK, maybe he could beat one or two guys on the roster if he was a BJJ black belt with no other skills, but he'd still be fighting an uphill battle.  My point was less, you can't compete by being good at one style, and more you need to be well rounded in modern MMA if you want to be more than a fight pass prelim fighter.  There are plenty of dudes at the bottom of every division who are fairly one-dimensional, but none of those dudes are going to be on PPV.  Those prelim fighters tend to be either dudes who train with a big name guy and they got put on the card as a favor, someone who is only a really good grappler, or someone who knocked the block off of a prospect they were there to scout.  Those guys are there, because they showed something the one time someone was paying attention.  Those guys are the exception not the rule, and they generally don't stick around very long.  

A lot of those dudes are like that, but you have a shitload of injury replacements who get in just because they fight locally or been kinda on a watchlist for a minute. Lot of those dudes would get trounced on Bellator and AXS TV prelim cards probably.

But at 37, even if he was great at one discipline or multiple disciplines, he isn't going to be UFC contender anyway. Look at Aaron Simpson. He was a good wrestler with good power. He learned fast then was out of the UFC in no time.  He was a legit fighter, but he was too old to really do something. He was probably at the end of his physical prime by the time he was in WEC or whatever. If he was younger and started years earlier instead of coaching at ASU, he would beat dudes like Chris Leben easily. Dudes like Jason Brilz are probably out of that discussion because they weren't that athletic to begin with.

That's why you have to matchmake dudes like CM Punk like a Kimbo Slice or a Herschel Walker because even if they turn out halfway decent (Kimbo who was half decent for an old brawler and Walker being a once in a life type athlete), by the time they reach contendership, they're already ancient in MMA years. It's like drafting a 32 or 33 year old running back to be third on the depth chart and planning to have him start two or three years from that current season. It makes no sense. 

Even if Punk didn't have all the wear and tear, he only had maybe 3 or 4 good years in MMA. Maybe less because welterweight isn't as replete with absolute bums like heavyweight. If he fought twice a year, that's between six and eight fights. Save for Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin when the HW division was even more terrible than now, Cain Velasquez, and a few female MMA fighters, there ain't going to be a ton of MMA fighters who challenge for legitimate world titles with *< 10 fights. This goes especially if they are over the age of 35. What's the point of arguing about whether or not he needs to learn this or that? That's kinda obvious, but Punk missed his window years ago for that to even apply to him. So if I found 4 or 5 dudes for him to beat, that's almost literally 50% or 60% of his career right there. Everything after that is gravy because it don't matter. So whether he went undefeated or sub .500, it doesn't matter because he's essentially in it to drive up either buys or worst case scenario, TV ratings.

[supremebve]

I don't know if Punk is the type of dude who could have ever been UFC caliber as a fighter.  He's not particularly athletic, not only did he not wrestle or do any martial arts in high school, he didn't play any sports at all.  I'm 35, and my shoulders and legs are still as large as they were when I was a high school fullback.  I'm not as lean as I was then, but my body is pretty much still working off the frame I started building back in 8th grade.  He became a "professional athlete" as an adult, but was never a guy who was particularly athletic.  How does he stop takedowns from a great athlete who started wrestling in the 6th grade?  How does he stand and strike with someone like Stephen Thompson?  In order for him to get to the UFC, he'd have to go through so many guys who have clear physical advantages.  It is no accident that guys like Aldo, McGregor, Jon Jones, and Tyron Woodley are at the top of the UFC ranks.  Those dudes are phenomenal athletes.  He's a guy who would probably never have a strength or speed advantage, which would be a very hard row to hoe.  Fighting gets disrespected so much as an athletic endeavor, but most elite fighters are elite athletes.  You can be a guy like Matt Brown, who isn't a great athlete, but he's an outlier to say the least. Does Punk strike you as the type of person who would have the crazy determination to grit his teeth and fight his way through better athletes by just being tougher than them? 

[Elsalvajeloco]

43 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I don't know if Punk is the type of dude who could have ever been UFC caliber as a fighter.   

The thing is though, that's not something we really have to worry about. There are dudes (and several gals as well) on the UFC roster who aren't UFC caliber who have gotten multiple UFC fights. If CM Punk was Phil Brooks, midwestern MMA fighter who fights on XFO shows and Monte Cox promoted events, he wouldn't be on a UFC card anyway unless he had legit hookup/connect or probably earned his way on a card. Also, it wouldn't necessitate that he appear on UFC main cards because those dudes are lucky just to get 15k and 15k let alone half a mil flat.

The point I am trying to make is Punk not bringing his name value, curiosity, and outside baggage (what happened on his way out of WWE, the ongoing lawsuit, etc.) removes the story of him making his MMA debut. So what he doesn't make it to the UFC and the top level. That applies to like 80 to 90% of the MMA world though. Part of what makes a dude like Jon Jones the best in the world is that every kid in the Northeast circuit german suplexing random fighters six months into their MMA career like they're Vader in New Japan isn't in the UFC and fighting for titles within 2-3 years. Sure, you get the Weidmans, Iaquintas, Uriah Halls, Chris Wades, Mickey Galls, Aljamain Sterlings, and Randy Browns of the world, but we know it is also a talent rich section of the country. The actual exclusivity of getting into UFC isn't there because you had CM Punk for example fight in the UFC. However, the exclusivity at the top level is going to remain as long as the talent level stays high. Everyone can't challenge for a title belt. Sure everyone should want to fight for a belt, but everyone ain't challenging for one. I mean Alan Jouban is a damn exciting fighter, but he probably isn't challenging for a belt ever. Lawler vs. Jouban (or any top level UFC WW striker) would probably be sweet as a five round fight. But I ain't weeping because I can see insane shit like Alan Jouban vs. Belal Muhammad in the middle of a UFC card.

So I am not going to lose sleep over something that wasn't meant to be. If Punk was supposed to fight the Tyron Woodleys or Michael Bispings of the world for their belts, the timing would have worked out where he would be on the MMA circuit instead of wrestling in fake ECW. As is, we got old, beatup comic book writer CM Punk who did some BJJ training here and there before going to Roufusport. I'm fine with that.

[supremebve]

I'm not the guy saying there is an issue with Punk being on a UFC card.  It is a business and Punk's name makes money, so therefore he's worthy of being there.  I was trying to illustrate how far behind he is from everyone else on the roster.  One of my favorite parts of MMA are the guys ranked between 15 and 25 at 145-170 lbs.  Watching Jorge Masvidal vs. Santiago Ponzinibbio could be a main event in my house.  Those guys aren't ever going to win a title, but they're really good fighters who put on fun fights.  I'm a huge MMA fan, I used to watch those late night, 8-hour, Dream shows live, so forgive me if I wax poetic about MMA in these threads from time to time.  This is one of the few places where I can have an intelligent conversation about MMA, so sometime I just try to further the conversation.

I do agree with your "Kimbo being a half decent brawler for his age" point that you made a couple posts above.  I honestly think he's someone who could have been an elite MMA fighter if he was born 15 years later and started fighting MMA instead of in the streets.  He actually won a UFC fight as an old, weathered, dude with bad knees.  He's the exact kind of guy who could have been a legitimate contender if he would have been in a different situation.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

I expect Punk to be far behind though. I think one of the things with MMA that isn't as prevalent with boxing especially at the weight classes below 200 lbs (which is why you still have the boxing vs. MMA thing still) is you have fighters who aren't that athletic that can get away with toughness and other intangible attributes w/ very little discernable skill to find career longevity. However, a 22 year old who isn't that athletic is probably going to have a way more successful career if he chooses to stick with it than someone 15 years older with the same athletic talent. In addition, you expect the sample size to be smaller with the latter. So if a fighter is 7-7 from age 37 to age 40, I am not surprised. I am also not surprised when a guy who early on looked like a shit fighter had a learning curve where they won 9 or 10 straight after being .500 for much of the early part of their career. There are so many fighters who either went to a different gym, starting doing the sport full time, and/or found something different to help their career to overcome some type of disadvantage that was innate. Hell, we ain't even taking into account all the PEDs, growth hormones, and blood doping. Maybe TRT CM Punk becomes the best welterweight gatekeeper we ever seen. Who knows? But that's not what happened. There are just so many factors and timing issues along with other variables that I don't even bother thinking what could have been really.

[Casey]

So, it came out that Punk got $500K just to show up to UFC 203. Fighters are losing their minds on Twitter. But then there's this.

This made me laugh, too.
 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Overeem did a couple laps around the octagon and got 800k.

Fortunately, Brooks is one of the few fighters I actually follow so I am not seeing the complaints.

[Guest Edwin]

6 hours ago, supremebve said:

Are we talking about guys who are going to win a handful of fights or someone who is going to be a career MMA fighter?  Being one dimensional is not practical in modern MMA if you want to make a career out of it.  Learning multiple disciplines and how to put them together is the only real way to compete against anyone over the fight pass prelim level.  You are talking about a sport that doesn't really exist any more.  In order to compete against even average UFC fighters, you need to be pretty well rounded.

Guys like Demian Maia and gals like Ronda Rousey for example disagree.

Their stand up is horrendous and they're one dimensional grapplers, yet they've done extremely well.

You can be a one dimensional grappler as long as you're great at it as the previously 2 mentioned examples.

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Guys like Demian Maia and gals like Ronda Rousey for example disagree.

Their stand up is horrendous and they're one dimensional grapplers, yet they've done extremely well.

You can be a one dimensional grappler as long as you're great at it as the previously 2 mentioned examples.

You are proving my point.  Unless you are the best grappler in the history of the sport or an olympic medalist fighting women who have no idea how to defend a judo throw, you would be much better off being well rounded.  The difference between Demian Maia's grappling and everyone else in the sport's grappling is so large it would be insane to think that you could just focus on your grappling and be like him.  If you want to become an MMA fighter, you can't just focus on one discipline and expect to be able to compete at the highest level.  The only real chance you would have is if you became the best in the world at that discipline by a wide margin.  

[AxB]

44 minutes ago, Edwin said:

 Ronda Rousey... stand up is horrendous and they're one dimensional grapplers

Have you ever seen Ronda Rousey fight? 

[Elsalvajeloco]

There was this stretch maybe five years ago where he wasn't really submitting people, and Maia was actually competent on the feet. Not stellar but he looked like he was training standup and some of it sunk in. That was back when he was in Sao Paulo training with Shogun's team. Even though he kept some of those dudes on his team, he start subbing people again once he was more independent like his Brasa BJJ days.

I think Maia and Rousey is a decent and intriguing comparison when you think about it, but you have remember that Maia has been in the UFC going on almost ten years. Even though he has not done the traveling of a Clay Guida or similar UFC vets, he did do some training outside of his immediate space. Do people even remember the Mario Miranda fight or some of the more non notable Maia fights? Like a few months prior to his UFC debut, I remember he use to fight in like half a gi and didn't strike at all. None at all. Even though he hasn't been active competition in years, he has somehow gotten better than even when he was just months away from competing in submission grappling nine years ago. I think one of the reasons why is he isn't deadly afraid of getting hit so he goes balls out from the beginning. He knows he is decent enough on the feet not to get knocked out. He won't win, but unless it's a big hitter, he will make it to the final horn.

Rousey on the other hand has had one striking coach and her grappling in the Holm fight was terrible and sloppy. The Holm fight was her Nate Marquardt fight. Rousey is a bad striker when you compare her to the Holms, Germaine de Randamies, and Valentina Shevchenkos of the world. A lot of the other girls at bantamweight ain't good at striking or grappling. That gave her the confidence to go out there and believe she can knock some of these girls out with rudimental striking combos. It also doesn't help that she has giant muscular arms and that lactic acid buildup is a son of a bitch. There are some girls in pro boxing with big arms, but they usually ain't fluid punchers and fight at heavier weight classes where that is acceptable. Rousey has to do what Maia did and just charge the striking thing to the game. You can be a super strong and versatile grappler or you can be a sloppy striker with ok power who kinda falls into submissions. If Rousey went in against Amanda Nunes in the same shape she was in during her Strikeforce Challenger days and got her into the clinch from jump street, that's a wrap. Amanda Nunes is going through the air. But Ronda ain't built to be out there trying to box with Amanda Nunes. I believe there are coaches who can help Ronda that ain't named Edmond, but I understand at the same time she should not be out there showing her striking. Only do that when you have to do that.

[supremebve]

Maia isn't nearly as one dimensional as he seems.  He's a competent striker, but his most underrated skill is his wrestling.  I separate wrestling in grappling into takedowns and what happens once you hit the ground respectively.  He's able to take down guys who have much better traditional wrestling skills than him, and I don't remember the last time he had any trouble at all getting his opponent to the ground.  All of his opponents know he wants to take them down, and they still have no chance to keep the fight standing. 

[Guest Edwin]

30 minutes ago, AxB said:

Have you ever seen Ronda Rousey fight? 

Yes, her stand up is horrendous. The only people who ever thought her stand up was good were Edmond and herself.

[AxB]

Bethe Corriea used to think Rousey's stand up was terrible. I wouldn't say it was horrendous... its not good, but it's not bad. It's not exactly technically brilliant, but it's been effective (against everyone except Holly Holm). It'd be better if she had coaching from someone who knew anything about MMA striking.

Actually, about Edmund Taverdyan. Wasn't he in legal trouble a few months ago, over undeclared earnings and tax evasion and that? What happened there?

[Elsalvajeloco]

54 minutes ago, AxB said:

Bethe Corriea used to think Rousey's stand up was terrible. I wouldn't say it was horrendous... its not good, but it's not bad. It's not exactly technically brilliant, but it's been effective (against everyone except Holly Holm). It'd be better if she had coaching from someone who knew anything about MMA striking.

Actually, about Edmund Taverdyan. Wasn't he in legal trouble a few months ago, over undeclared earnings and tax evasion and that? What happened there?

Paul Gift wrote and tweeted a ton on his IRS issues if you want to search everything out. He had to take a personal financial management course last December. I think he still going through the bankruptcy proceedings. He has $3,300 in total assets and $725,000 in debts.

[Jiji]

EDMUND LEGEND. I find it really frustrating that Ronda is so invested in this fraud. I'd like to see an elite fighter evolve.

[The Natural]

Man the thread has grown since last I went on. Will check it out after this goes through.

I called on Facebook, Stipe Miocic retaining the UFC Heavyweight Championship against Alistair Overeem by KO in the first round. Overeem doing bloody laps round the Octagon. Overeem's had some memorable KTFO's at his expense against Shogun Rua, Bigfoot, Browne and now Miocic.

CM Punk was embarrassed in his debut MMA fight getting subbed by Mickey Gall in round one. Still give some Punk credit for attempting this. 

Shame Joanne Calderwood lost.

 

[The Natural]

Awesome Joanne Calderwood story:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2660863-homeless-man-writes-joanne-calderwood-a-thank-you-note-after-ufc-203-experience?utm_campaign=tsiphone&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=twitter.com

[Guest Edwin]

10 hours ago, AxB said:

Bethe Corriea used to think Rousey's stand up was terrible. I wouldn't say it was horrendous... its not good, but it's not bad. It's not exactly technically brilliant, but it's been effective (against everyone except Holly Holm). It'd be better if she had coaching from someone who knew anything about MMA striking.

Actually, about Edmund Taverdyan. Wasn't he in legal trouble a few months ago, over undeclared earnings and tax evasion and that? What happened there?

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

Bethe isn't exactly lighting the world on fire with her stand up either.

She's only really tried to strike with Holly Holm, that's why it's been effective with everyone else (even though it's been non-existent)...

Sure she looks pretty good hitting the mitts in training, but even Gabi Garcia looks decent doing that and we've seen how that's worked out for her.

[AxB]

Ronda Rousey vs Sarah McMann?

[supremebve]

Rousey is not a great striker, no one is claiming that she is, but other than that one time she fought a former boxing/kickboxing champion her striking has been more than adequate.  She's not going to turn into prime Anderson Silva, but she is generally good enough to defend herself long enough for her to get into judo throwing range.  

[NikoBaltimore]

A lot has been said about the Punk fight, but I'll just say this.  When some wrestlers get asked about doing MMA they say if they knew it was going to be this big they would have done it.  And some like Angle have tried years ago but it was based off his Olympic wrestling background, but in time knew it wasn't a possibility.  Heck, even Shelton Benjamin will only consider a high-payday Bellator fight, but he's also got some skills to work off of.  I'm a huge fan of Punk, always have been and always will be.  I watched the fight supporting him, yet knew he was going to get his ass kicked.  To be fair, he held off a little better than expected before he got choked out, and that's mainly due to toughness.  But Punk is a prime example of why you don't see most wrestler try MMA after being in wrestling for however long.  Lashley and Batista don't count, the former's a beast and the latter went against a nobody.  I hope Punk tries lower-level MMA to see how he fares, but there's no benefit in him sniffing UFC for some time.  I do admire that fact that he didn't want to take the easy route and he's been super respectful throughout.  But it's a shame that he inadvertently pissed off UFC fans and fighters alike by thinking he'd stand a chance.  It's understandable, but mah gawd the douchebags on both sides of the argument just drive me bonkers.

I'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but due to a busy day at work and trying to wrap my head around this, it took until today to say anything about it.  That said, the opening women's fight was an enjoyable ass-whooping.  And Browne got his ass kicked six way 'til Sunday.  Weird post-fight deal after sure was interesting.  I'm not a fan of Overeem so was happy to see Miocic win his fight.

[Guest Edwin]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

Ronda Rousey vs Sarah McMann?

Yeah, no... She threw about 2 crazy punches that required no technique trying to cut the distance for the clinch and then some knees in the clinch.