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Robert

General Lucha Libre Comments

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On 10/17/2016 at 2:13 AM, thecubsfan said:

It's related to the sponsorship deal in some weird way.

Well, I figured that.  They seem like the sponsors hired them and not the company itself.  Do you happen to know their names at all?

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CMLL is so weird and full of fiefdoms that I can totally believe they have two separate groups of women hired in nearly the same role (under different people in the organization), though it could be sponsorship like you guessed. These two are getting the jobs the regular women probably liked the least - traveling to/from Puebla late is a pain, and standing like a mannequin for those 90 minute press conferences seems not fun.

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20 hours ago, thecubsfan said:

CMLL is so weird and full of fiefdoms that I can totally believe they have two separate groups of women hired in nearly the same role (under different people in the organization), though it could be sponsorship like you guessed. These two are getting the jobs the regular women probably liked the least - traveling to/from Puebla late is a pain, and standing like a mannequin for those 90 minute press conferences seems not fun.

Which one is which?

Can you explain the CMLL fiefdoms?  Just for those of the uninitiated.

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Hijo de LA Park, Zumbi, Emperador Azteca vs Imposible, Diamante & Karonte Jr. from ELITE this past Friday was RI-GOD-DAMN-DICULOUS! Everything I want out of my undercard matches. Absolute carnage. A man's head was thrown through a wooden makeshift guardrail! Red hot crowd too who were into everything these guys were doing. I cannot reccomend this match enough if you want to see a total cluster of moves, death & underage girls losing their mind for Zumbi's dancing.

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I assume the woman on the right is Marla but I dunno. CMLL has lots of parts of their office which seem to work independently from each other and occasionally overlap each other and don't have a strong central authority.

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On 10/23/2016 at 7:29 PM, Robert said:

Hijo de LA Park, Zumbi, Emperador Azteca vs Imposible, Diamante & Karonte Jr. from ELITE this past Friday was RI-GOD-DAMN-DICULOUS! Everything I want out of my undercard matches. Absolute carnage. A man's head was thrown through a wooden makeshift guardrail! Red hot crowd too who were into everything these guys were doing. I cannot reccomend this match enough if you want to see a total cluster of moves, death & underage girls losing their mind for Zumbi's dancing.

Watched this tonight and it lived up to your hype. The crowd was super hot for pretty much the whole thing and some of those dives looked brutal because there's barely any room between the ring and the barricade.

Here it is for everyone who hasn't seen it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWil9JwMLA4

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I don't really like Valiente much more than Volador. They're both excellent role players in trios matches. Valiente needs someone to rein him in when it comes to singles matches because he's not going to impart particular meaning on anything all on his own. Volador's very good at hitting very difficult things clean. Valiente brings his amazing fireplug tope and sort of a Jim Neidhartito physicality to things that stands out in lucha. Volador is literally impossible to rein in and in singles matches he will bring out the worst tendencies of anyone he's wrestling. Volador's a pretty good asshole rudo when he gets to be (even if it'd fall apart in the third fall of any singles match he's in, unfortunately). Valiente's pretty vanilla personality wise. 

So I'm pretty benignly amused by last night's result, but not over the moon or anything. They're doing something I more or less approve of for most of the wrong reasons (which is actually more credit than CMLL usually gets when they do either the right or wrong thing for no reason at all). This is a week where they're pushing Hechicero though, so I'm wasn't going to complain either way. 

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I would guess Valiente is a lock to win the bodybuilding competition.

I actually thought maybe they would turn rudo if he won. and when he came out with Mephisto as his second ...

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9 hours ago, Matt D said:

I don't really like Valiente much more than Volador. They're both excellent role players in trios matches. Valiente needs someone to rein him in when it comes to singles matches because he's not going to impart particular meaning on anything all on his own. Volador's very good at hitting very difficult things clean. Valiente brings his amazing fireplug tope and sort of a Jim Neidhartito physicality to things that stands out in lucha. Volador is literally impossible to rein in and in singles matches he will bring out the worst tendencies of anyone he's wrestling. Volador's a pretty good asshole rudo when he gets to be (even if it'd fall apart in the third fall of any singles match he's in, unfortunately). Valiente's pretty vanilla personality wise. 

So I'm pretty benignly amused by last night's result, but not over the moon or anything. They're doing something I more or less approve of for most of the wrong reasons (which is actually more credit than CMLL usually gets when they do either the right or wrong thing for no reason at all). This is a week where they're pushing Hechicero though, so I'm wasn't going to complain either way. 

I find it interesting what you say about Volador.  He's a very excellent flyer.  But from what I've seen of him, his ground game needs a lot of work.  But what do you means when you say "bring out the worst tendencies of anyone he's wrestling"?

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Let me link you to a few reviews I did over at SC:

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2015/08/mlj-volador-2015-something-something-8.html

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2016/04/mlj-sombra-spotlight-27-la-sombra-vs.html

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2016/05/mlj-volador-jr-vs-mascara-dorada-liga.html

Ground game is great. Flying is great. But none of that matters if the wrestler puts together a terrible match full of excess and meaningless (interminable) spots. Volador is all execution and no build or payoff. And this is in a world where other people in lucha pull off those things all the time. 

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That's certainly a lot of words. Brings me back to the DVDVR days of the 2005-2008 Lucha Libre boom in Mexico led by Mistico where Phil & Tom would write weekly think pieces on how terrible he was & amuse themselves trying to get him ranked below some southern wrestler who has great punches on their yearly list.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Matt clearly has his & made it known he wasn't a Volador Jr. fan before he started a blog specifically to tear down the guy. As I noted at the time, that's certainly one way to spend your free time.

To provide the contrary view - Volador is one of the most popular wrestlers in Mexico & one of the most highly in demand guys today. So clearly he's doing something right but what would the paying customers and promoters know compared to Segunda Caida, right? Actually one of the more amazing things I've discovered is how Volador's popularity extends from older fans to young girls to hardcore "smart" fans who hate almost everyone from CMLL. Rare to find someone liked by all those groups.

Atila, you make your own call on whether you enjoy Volador or not. All I'll say is beware the disconnect with folks who still don't want to understand how Lucha Libre has evolved & get excited when the latest Jerry Estrada match makes it to YouTube.

Edited by Robert

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Team CMLL beat team ROH tonight. UG pinned Daniels after the guerrero special. more later. 

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Another excellent ELITE show this week highlighted by Golden Magic, Bandido & Zumbi vs Karonte Jr., Hijo De Dos Caras (who is cosplaying Roman Reigns?) & Hijo De Dr. Wagner. Loved this match more than the carnage the previous week. The rudos were great bullies and the tecnicos looked super in their shine segments, Bandido in particular is such a fucking star. Having no Argos around this week was such an improvement. Zumbi's fucking flying legdrop into the crowd was ridiculous! That'll surely get him banned from the CWC 2017.

Caristico is so broken down these days and carrying excess weight isn't helping but Escorpion dragged him to a decent enough match. The mid-match zombie effect was creepy as fuck.

This show blew away the CMLL Friday show and actually that opening match was better than anything in CMLL since Volador/Cavernario.

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Let me say a few things in response:

On 10/29/2016 at 8:29 PM, Robert said:

That's certainly a lot of words. Brings me back to the DVDVR days of the 2005-2008 Lucha Libre boom in Mexico led by Mistico where Phil & Tom would write weekly think pieces on how terrible he was & amuse themselves trying to get him ranked below some southern wrestler who has great punches on their yearly list.

First off, thank you. There's no where I'd rather be when it comes to writing about wrestling than categorized with Phil and Tom. 

On 10/29/2016 at 8:29 PM, Robert said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Matt clearly has his & made it known he wasn't a Volador Jr. fan before he started a blog specifically to tear down the guy. As I noted at the time, that's certainly one way to spend your free time.

Two points here:

1. Everyone is entitled to opinions. You as well. And on specific elements of wrestling, I think you're a connoisseur. There are people in the broader community I'd go to if I wanted to know what the best Dragon Gate match of a certain style was, or what the best Big Japan match in 2004 might have been, or who's really good on the Southern Indies now. If I wanted to know which lucha matches had the best hit spots or the best dives, or were the most innovative, or which mini matches were the most exciting in 1998, I'd not hesitate to ask you. People have different opinions. It's ok.

2. I didn't make a blog specifically to tear down the guy. SC was running. I was running my own attempts to examine lucha and figure it out and what made it tick for half a year before that. I did it by diving deep on specific wrestlers in specific times. You made a claim about Volador. I figured that made him worth examining. I didn't know what I'd be getting exactly. I started with every chronological match of that year to get a 360 view. And I found what I claim at various points. He's a wrestler who works hard, who can hit very complex spots cleanly, who hits nice dives, is innovative, who works well as a role player in trios, who can be a good jerk rudo in controlled settings, and who is lacking in a lot of the areas I care about most, to the point of actively dragging his opponents down into a pit of excess and diminishing returns. I was hoping to find something else based on the praise. I didn't. It wasn't me outright trying to tear anything down. It just happened that the matches made me do that in the end. No one was more disappointed by that than I was. I want to watch wrestling I like just like anyone else.

On 10/29/2016 at 8:29 PM, Robert said:

To provide the contrary view - Volador is one of the most popular wrestlers in Mexico & one of the most highly in demand guys today. So clearly he's doing something right but what would the paying customers and promoters know compared to Segunda Caida, right? 

Rob apparently also holds Pagano in high regard for these reasons? Whatever floats your boat.

On 10/29/2016 at 8:29 PM, Robert said:

Atila, you make your own call on whether you enjoy Volador or not. All I'll say is beware the disconnect with folks who still don't want to understand how Lucha Libre has evolved & get excited when the latest Jerry Estrada match makes it to YouTube.

So we can't get excited about a new Beatles live recording that might show up because there are some Demi Lovato songs that we should really be listening to, because of how pop music has evolved. Got it.

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Caught the second half of the Friday night EMLL and loved the wacky Dia de Muertos vibe with everyone (including the refs and announcers!) in sugar skull gimmicks. Again, I think Cavernario would be a strong pickup for NXT if it ever came to that.

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50 minutes ago, Pete said:

Caught the second half of the Friday night EMLL and loved the wacky Dia de Muertos vibe with everyone (including the refs and announcers!) in sugar skull gimmicks. Again, I think Cavernario would be a strong pickup for NXT if it ever came to that.

I think the caveman gimmick has tons of merchandising potential. If this were another era, WWE would just steal it and give it to someone else but they don't seem to do that much anymore.

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He's still shockingly young but it would be weird if he's not in NXT in the next few years. He's the complete package. 

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If you listen to some pundits, he will be crippled by then, due to all his crazy bumps. /eyeroll

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Too many people get that criticism but I actually do buy it with Barbaro because he does so much stuff where he lands right on his knees. A lot of his landings just look rough.

The good thing for him is that he doesn't really need to do the flying in the future to stay over. I think the gimmick probably even works better as he gets older and meaner.

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Yeah, sometimes he wrestles brilliantly to the gimmick, other times he's too refined and focused on doing generic lucha libre style instead of being a fucking caveman. Still., I haven't seen anything less than fun from him in singles matches.

I die a little inside every time he hits the splash to the floor. So gross.

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Cavernario will be wrestling for another 20+ years. He'll be fine. The thing about most people, including Dave, who complain about the flying splash is they are only watching his big matches. They aren't sitting through Puebla tonight or a handheld from Tijuana where he gets by on his gimmick and stooging for the tecnicos. He's not dumb like Impulso, he's not doing the flying splash to the floor in front of 100 fans at Arena San Juan Pantitlan or on the dirt ground outside the ring in Coacalco.

I could see him doing a year in Japan like Dorada. He's so young that he's still just finishing up school. I think once he's free and clear he'll go over to NJ for a year & who knows where after that. He's picking up English so that's a good thing if his goal is eventually to work in the States more.

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There were moments a year or two ago where he was using the splash in the segunda of Pesta Nesta comedy matches as a spot that didn't even lead to a fall but he's mostly cut that out as he's become more of a star in his own right.

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On 10/29/2016 at 5:18 PM, Matt D said:

Let me link you to a few reviews I did over at SC:

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2015/08/mlj-volador-2015-something-something-8.html

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2016/04/mlj-sombra-spotlight-27-la-sombra-vs.html

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2016/05/mlj-volador-jr-vs-mascara-dorada-liga.html

Ground game is great. Flying is great. But none of that matters if the wrestler puts together a terrible match full of excess and meaningless (interminable) spots. Volador is all execution and no build or payoff. And this is in a world where other people in lucha pull off those things all the time. 

I'll have to check these out later.  I'll retract my ground game needs work comment on Volador though.  I agree with you on the execution but no payoff critique on Volador.

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