Movie [MOVIE] 2017 UPCOMING MOVIE DISCUSSION

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, J.T. said:

They said that about Hammer, too.

But Hammer isn't a gangster though. He HAS connections with gangsters, as MC Serch found out. So does Suge. So does J. Prince. So does Suga Free. So does about a whole slew of other folks (many who started on the streets). That doesn't make YOU a street gangster. They don't beef with actual gangsters. People within their respective industry? Ripe for the picking. Yeah, The Game can get people jumped at the Beverly Center but it's another rapper he is beefing with. He ain't having no one who is someone in that world jumped at the mall. He would be dead in no time.

Like dudes like Lil Wayne and Soulja Boy....they're not actually Pirus. Soulja Boy went to a Piru neighborhood and got ran the fuck out immediately. Just because some gang is low key extorting you and allows you to claim something on a song doesn't mean you're actually in that gang.

[J.T.]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That doesn't make YOU a street gangster.

YOU don't need to be a street gangster.  That's why you have dudes who are actual street gangsters in your set with names like Nug Nug and Lil' Boo to handle that shit while you keep your hands clean.

Hammer didn't need to call any shots.  That's what his brother was for.  Hammer was protected and those that didn't know found out quickly.

As for The Game dealie, The Game knows what he can and can't get away with and knows the difference between a publicity jumping and actual warfare.  Suge's problem was the same as New Jack's:  he brought his gimmick home with him too often.

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 minutes ago, J.T. said:

YOU don't need to be a street gangster. 

In the matters of taking someone's life or multiple lives, you do because if you're a celebrity of any significance, it's coming back to you. Suge is what is he is...no more no less. He's a dude who is a bully and made his name bullying people in his industry. He's not some mastermind who orchestrates hits. Those dudes usually don't get sexually assaulted in prison like Suge did last year. No one would ever fuck with them. No one.

16 minutes ago, J.T. said:

Hammer didn't need to call any shots.  That's what his brother was for.  Hammer was protected and those that didn't know found out quickly.

Again, that's inside the industry and several degrees away from Hammer. Hammer was never that guy on the streets during his actual career. Matter of fact, the whole reason he went broke is because he was giving real gangsters from Oakland and guys with murder raps jobs on his tours because he didn't want them to be killed. Nothing about Hammer says...yeah, I'm doing some Oakland street slinging dope everyday shit and pimping women in Richmond and around the bay. He's a real humble dude (a lil too nice and that's what caused his downfall) with grimey beginnings.

16 minutes ago, J.T. said:

As for The Game dealie, The Game knows what he can and can't get away

That's my whole point. These dudes know who they can fuck with and who they can't fuck with. Rappers, ballers, entertainers, other contemporary music moguls? Yes. Actual crips, bloods, Vice Lords, GDs, BMF, hitmen, and everything in between? No. It's a very easy flowchart.

Nothing about Suge puts him outside that lane. People have been trying to make him that for years, but he's not that dude. Shit, you noticed he snitched on his wife and his security chief. He was VERY careful. He didn't mention any actual gangbangers. That would be an automatic death sentence, especially since he's in the system now. 

[Brian Fowler]

Didn't Suge at least allegedly have actual Mafia connections?

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Brian Fowler said:

Didn't Suge at least allegedly have actual Mafia connections?

Dude, like 80% to 90% of people's affiliations with black street gangs (or the mafia) is either extortion (for credibility sake) or just pure fantasy w/ no evidence to back it up. Just because some dude who smoked sherm in the day said something about gang affiliations don't make it true.

Rick Ross is saying shit about the Black Mafia Family....dude has zero (zilch, nada) connection with the Black Mafia Family.

[Brian Fowler]

Fair enough, I just seem to recall it being said/implied by people not under Knight's umbrella.

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Fair enough, I just seem to recall it being said/implied by people not under Knight's umbrella.

Yeah, it's possible he knows someone but that doesn't mean anything at all. They have their own structure, and their structure doesn't permit to do contract killing for another race. You probably got a rare instance of that in the Teddy Roe "policy" days in Chicago, but that's the 1930s and 1940s. Whoever knows Suge isn't about to bring that shit to their boss.

[Brian Fowler]

At any rate, I feel pretty confident we're never going to know who killed Pac (or Biggie) or exactly why.

[J.T.]

I don't think that anyone is saying that Suge is Lex Luthor levels of master criminal, but he was without a doubt a ruthless asshole that was used to getting his way.. 

You just don't roll up and try to clown him and not expect serious reciprocity unless you are that legit dude not to step to and Suge was smart enough not to incur the wrath of legit gangsters because that was bad for business.

Suge knew what the deal was and stayed in his lane (he wouldn't be alive today if he didn't), but he also pushed the upper limits of his own envelope.

[Elsalvajeloco]

42 minutes ago, J.T. said:

I don't think that anyone is saying that Suge is Lex Luthor levels of master criminal, but he was without a doubt a ruthless asshole that was used to getting his way. .

But again, that's SAFELY in the confines of the industry and without killing anyone. That's where all our examples are from. Yeah, hang Vanilla Ice off the balcony. Go ahead. You wanna beat Michel'le up? Go right ahead because she works for you. Are you doing that to a crip leader or his girl?  Nope, well, you're safe. We have no examples of him doing that. Thus, there is nothing to infer he is setting up hits on anyone.

42 minutes ago, J.T. said:

 Suge was smart enough not to incur the wrath of legit gangsters because that was bad for business.

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING~! Beating people up (or having people beat them up for you) is fine. Killing someone is a whole different can of worms. Your average rapper or R&B person (even though R&B artists are notoriously tougher than rappers) is not stepping to Suge. Right. However, we're talking a murder conspiracy surrounding two of the biggest rappers ever (if not the two biggest after their death) where Suge caught a bullet himself.

Moreover, Suge is too big a celeb to be that dude. The heat from the gangsters is one thing. However, if you're starting a war in the streets of Los Angeles and New York, you're fucking up EVERYONE's money because no one can be out on the streets. You're going to have cops and shootouts. That's a bad recipe for anyone. In the history of organized crime, that has never been a good thing. It's the whole reason why those dudes ran Soulja Boy off their block last year. This dumbass is screaming out "Piru!" and "Fruits!" on their block on video and bringing all types of attention that they don't want. Why in the holy hell would Suge Knight, who is prospering from his record label and the success of all his artists at the time, do something 250x worse than that by engaging either hitmen or gangsters (or worse yet, cops) and get himself killed in the process? All the conspiracy theories kinda made sense when he had that aura, but now, those cases become less and less believable everyday.

44 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

At any rate, I feel pretty confident we're never going to know who killed Pac (or Biggie) or exactly why.

And that brings me to this. Maybe it's too simple and boring for everyone who remembers all that and the subsequent gossip that came from it, but I believe that the very little aftermath shows that it was something very petty that caused all that. Someone got bold and hype off of whatever liquor they were drinking, found out Suge/Pac were going to the Tyson/Seldon fight, and decided to act on the opportunity. In return, Biggie had to go because no one was going to take an L at the time. It's simple retaliation. It happened all the time in the 80s and 90s before the 92 gang truce. Maybe there was some bad business deals Suge or Puff made along the way, but the money was flowing into everyone's pocket at the time. Puff had Biggie signed to a BS deal (like he did with everyone else) so it's not like he was hard up for money. We know Suge had money. It made no sense for them to be involved in any big way. Puff lost his boy and Suge caught some lead, and they both decided not to escalate that shit any further because they ain't about that life. Some dusty street dudes with no code at all, who are likely dead by now anyway, killed those two guys. That's what I'm choosing to believe because I really don't have concrete evidence otherwise.

[Brian Fowler]

I really have no clue who killed Pac.

If I had to guess, a Tupac fan murdered Biggie as "revenge" as it were. But murders don't get solved randomly twenty years later, especially absurdly high profile ones. If these cases were going to be solved, they would've been before Y2K ever happened.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

If people wanna see a real conspiracy...just look up Sam Cooke's death. That's some shady shit that was definitely calculated. I would be more interested in that film (done correctly, of course) than another Biggie and Tupac biopic that's going to tell us nothing in the end.

[OSJ]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

If people wanna see a real conspiracy...just look up Sam Cooke's death. That's some shady shit that was definitely calculated. I would be more interested in that film (done correctly, of course) than another Biggie and Tupac biopic that's going to tell us nothing in the end.

Sam Cooke and Bobby Fuller both... Some heinous shit went on in the early sixties and nothing that comes to light today surprises me in the slightest. Sam Cooke could very easily have been a contract killing ordered by white record moguls. (Rumor has always had it that Ray Charles was threatened repeatedly too. and I certainly believe it.) As for Bobby Fuller, that's one of the weirdest cases on record, a white kid with no known enemies, but I don't believe for a second that it was a suicide, the gasoline splashed all over the place is indicative that whoever killed him was going to burn the car with him in it to cover the murder, but got scared away.

[J.T.]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

But again, that's SAFELY in the confines of the industry and without killing anyone. That's where all our examples are from. Yeah, hang Vanilla Ice off the balcony. Go ahead. You wanna beat Michel'le up? Go right ahead because she works for you. Are you doing that to a crip leader or his girl?  Nope, well, you're safe. We have no examples of him doing that. Thus, there is nothing to infer he is setting up hits on anyone.

No one smart leave behind evidence that they were responsible for murders, man..

That being said, we know that Suge never ordered a hit on Biggie simply because he's not doing time for it.

A guy with an ego as gigantic as Suge Knight's would've long since ratted himself because the asshole wouldn't have been able to sleep through the night without bragging to someone about it or not making sure that the proper don't let this happen to you message was sent to the right target audience. 

Play ganstas are dumb like that and real shot callers know that is better to have a reputation than it is to have fame.  Better to be feared for what you might be capable of than what you would actually do even though the odd object lesson helps to keeps people in check..  Occasionally as they say, you have to nail a cow's tongue to someone's front door.

Suge was a bully and bullies know how to stay in their lane, less they draw the attention of the real predators.  Suge will also allow the urban legend of his super villain mystique to stay alive for as long as he benefits from the rep and it doesn't make any waves.

The real funny thing is that even with all of these documentaries and shit and testimonials from Suge about what really happened and shit, the murders are no closer to being officially solved than when they first happened.  Probably because the selling the lie and perpetuating the myth is far more lucrative than looking for the truth.

[OSJ]

The idea of Suge Knight as a criminal mastermind is laughable. Is he a guy I would go up to and clown? Certainly not, but as has been pointed out he stayed in his lane and like a true loudmouth bully, only fucked around with people that he could get away with fucking around with. Vanilla Fucking Ice? Ninja, please. Some babe in his entourage? Please. 

If Suge was a real shot-caller, he wouldn't have guys trying to fuck him in the ass while he's inside. Was he capable of ordering a hit on Biggie? No. Is he capable about running his mouth and implying that he had something to do with it? Certainly. Suge Knight is the record industry version of JBL. He'll act like a tough guy as long as there are no tough guys around.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, J.T. said:

No one smart leave behind evidence that they were responsible for murders, man..

The thing about that though is unless you're doing it yourself, you have no idea if there is or isn't any evidence. If someone got sloppy one day, everybody going to jail and dudes turning rat really fast. There is no real reason to do any high level shit like that anyway if everything is going fine. You're on top of the world so why disturb that by taking unnecessary risks. There is no angle surrounding him that would justify him killing anyone or having anyone killed. Suge just happens to be the shadiest person around something everyone and their auntie wants to create a narrative around with no evidence.

[J.T.]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Suge just happens to be the shadiest person around something everyone and their auntie wants to create a narrative around with no evidence.

And you don't see Suge getting in the way of that because he like having the aura of someone who might be capable of those things.

We're back to the OJ Simpson IF I HAD DONE IT bullshit.

A wise person would be doing everything possible to clear themselves from the list of usual suspects.

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

There is no angle surrounding him that would justify him killing anyone or having anyone killed.

Does Suge Knight really strike you as a person that needed justification?

He didn't have anybody popped because deep down inside he was a law abiding citizen just like any other wannabe gangsta that occasionally fractured the law for the sake of good marketing.

[OSJ]

The thing is Suge does everything he possibly can to feed that narrative, just like most play gangsters. The real badasses don't advertise the fact. Being Irish and at one time a semi-pro dart player, I know some hard bastards from the Old Country that immigrated here for reasons I'd just as soon not know. Are/were any of them Irish Mafia, shit, I don't know and I wasn't about to ask, conversations pretty much stayed clear of everything but darts, women, and alcohol. If it's obvious that you don't know anything, no one is going to fuck with you because they think you know something. I do know that one of the boys was deported for being caught with a shitload of illegal firearms, but that was public record...

[OSJ]

Damn it J.T. get out of my head!

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 minutes ago, OSJ said:

The idea of Suge Knight as a criminal mastermind is laughable. Is he a guy I would go up to and clown? Certainly not, but as has been pointed out he stayed in his lane and like a true loudmouth bully, only fucked around with people that he could get away with fucking around with. Vanilla Fucking Ice? Ninja, please. Some babe in his entourage? Please. 

If Suge was a real shot-caller, he wouldn't have guys trying to fuck him in the ass while he's inside. Was he capable of ordering a hit on Biggie? No. Is he capable about running his mouth and implying that he had something to do with it? Certainly. Suge Knight is the record industry version of JBL. He'll act like a tough guy as long as there are no tough guys around.

Suge is like a money mark promoter in MMA or pro wrestling. He was someone's security guard who decided he would like to be in the industry to be buddy-buddy w/ rappers and singers when everything was red hot except he wanted to be an enforcer as well under the guise he was doing it for the artists. If he was some creative genius, he would've replicated that success with other artists post Tupac and Death Row exodus even with that bully stigma around him. When you come from that background, handling talent in that way is easy, lightweight work. However, even with all the connections you're making, it doesn't afford you to be involved in some crazy, reckless shit that can get anyone killed. The promo he cut at the Source Awards about Puff was legendary, but it's all chest thumping. No one was ready for that to come off wax, except for the loser ass dudes who thought they had everything to gain by killing the hottest rappers at the time. So anytime someone makes it some Lucky Luciano/Albert Anastasia/Murder Incorporated type shit, I can't really tolerate it anymore. They won't ever be a face for their deaths, and I'm not sure that there should be. They're a lot of people to blame for it getting to that point, and many of them didn't have a gun in their hand.

[OSJ]

In both cases it was as I believe you or J.T. said earlier, likely some crack-smoking street thugs who thought they had something to gain and are likely long since dead. FWIW: To me, (probably because I'm a huge fan of both), the Sam Cooke and Bobby Fuller deaths are far more intriguing. The usual answer is "follow the money", but that doesn't really apply in either case.

[Brian Fowler]

Suge succeeded solely because Dre bought into what he was selling. Full stop. Without Dre, he doesn't get Snoop. Without The Chronic and Doggystyle, there's no money to buy Tupac out of prison.

Outside those three, there's nothing substantially successful on Death Row. 

[J.T.]

The thing about Sam Cooke's death is that it so painfully obvious that something else happened that is is absurd.  The condition of his body nowhere near fit the description of the incident.  One gunshot to the chest, my ass.

No one wanted Sam's murder to be solved.

[J.T.]

18 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 If he was some creative genius, he would've replicated that success with other artists post Tupac and Death Row exodus even with that bully stigma around him.

No, he wouldn't have. 

Dre was the one who had the eye for talent and no one outside of Dre, Snoop, or Tupac earned shit for Death Row. 

When Dre left to get Aftermath off the ground, that was pretty much it for DR.

Suge wouldn't have drawn any talent after that.  Why go work for Suge at DR and get your ass beat when you could go work for Dre or Snoop or even Daz Dillinger later on?

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Suge succeeded solely because Dre bought into what he was selling. Full stop. Without Dre, he doesn't get Snoop. Without The Chronic and Doggystyle, there's no money to buy Tupac out of prison.

Outside those three, there's nothing substantially successful on Death Row. 

For that time or anytime, that's a pretty big haul. There are major rap labels now that have lasted way longer than Death Row in their heyday that haven't had an album even close to ANY of those albums (critically, commercially, or as influential).