MR. ROBOT

[Craig H]

That was beautiful. I can't think of another series that has explored mental illness like this has. I don't have multiple personalities and I'm not bipolar, but I have my own struggles with anxiety (more often than not it's crippling) and depression and all I want is that light at the end of the tunnel and I know I have to fight for it even I feel too tired and too weak to do it.

I don't know, there's more to say about the series finale, but I'm not sure how to put it into words. I just really loved it.

[Chaos]

On 12/22/2019 at 10:47 PM, Craig H said:

That was beautiful. I can't think of another series that has explored mental illness like this has. I don't have multiple personalities and I'm not bipolar, but I have my own struggles with anxiety (more often than not it's crippling) and depression and all I want is that light at the end of the tunnel and I know I have to fight for it even I feel too tired and too weak to do it.

I don't know, there's more to say about the series finale, but I'm not sure how to put it into words. I just really loved it.

I finally finished this, and I've been battling my own anxiety and depression for the last year or two to the point of it being crippling and at times self destructive, so this does hit home pretty roughly at points.

Great season to a great series overall. I'm far from anti-capitalist, but the show in my view does an interesting job of exploring the dangers of government and big corporations being in cahoots for extreme crony capitalism while also showing the dangers of world leaders and figures meddling in the global economy.

Even without the mental illness stuff, this proved to be very much a show about identity, and how that search and longing for identity can carry other figures down a dark path or bring those that you love and care about down with you.

[Craig H]

FWIW, I've seen a lot of people say they immediately started a rewatch and knowing how it ends and what the series was about makes you see everything in a totally different light. I'm going to rewatch at some point just to see what that's like.

[Technico Support]

On 2/28/2020 at 12:58 PM, Craig H said:

FWIW, I've seen a lot of people say they immediately started a rewatch and knowing how it ends and what the series was about makes you see everything in a totally different light. I'm going to rewatch at some point just to see what that's like.

I revisited this thread to specifically discuss this, because we started rewatching the series last week and currently have one episode left in season 1.  There are definitely things that make me feel like the whole series was planned from the start.  Like in one episode, Eliott is having a dream or vision where Angela tells him "you were only born a month ago."  I assume that's when "Hacker Eliott" took over "Regular Eliott?"  Also, the show starts with Eliott busting a child porn site which is telling since he was sexually abused.  But maybe I'm just making connections that didn't really exist.

Was it ever really established as to when "Hacker Elliott" took over, actually?  At the start of season 1, he's 2-3 months away from completing one year of court-mandated therapy, so I'm not sure.

It's fun watching the first season to see how they hide the fact that Mr. Robot doesn't really exist.  It holds together pretty well except for one scene where Eliott & Robot are arguing at AllSafe and an employee is reacting, looking over her cubicle at them, which shouldn't have happened.

One jarring thing is the difference between the pilot and the rest of the series.  Filming looks different, the tone feels different, and the dialogue is really bad, stilted, and overly expository (actually, the dialogue stays bad for a few episodes).  Also, Elliott's desk location changes between ep1 & 2 with no explanation    Speaking of dialogue, the monologues in early episodes about the awfulness and shallowness of people and society are so cynical and cringeworthy.  A lot of it comes off like it was written by a cranky teen just starting to get disenfranchised with the world.  The axiom "The young mistake cynicism for wisdom" is writ large here. 

Some of the hacking is kind of bullshit.  The Steel Mountain hack was pretty problematic for me for reasons I don't feel like getting too far into here.  But still, in an entertainment industry where you can destroy data simply by randomly shooting a computer, it was nice to see a content creator admit that backups exist.

Those criticisms aside, the show hits its stride a few episodes in and all these things get better.  One thing I disliked is how the show pretty much ripped off much of the plot of Fight Club, then lampshaded it by using "Where is My Mind" like that was a defense 

Now what I'm not looking forward to is season two, easily my least favorite.  So much stuff in that season was Sam Esmail giving in to some really masturbatory, "let me cosplay David Lynch" tendencies.  The most glaring was Whiterose's whole scenario tormenting Angela in some room where she ostensibly had the Dark Army, what, build out a set?  Whiterose does this whole stage play thing to fuck with Angela and this is a character who is obsessed with not wasting a second of time.  Really awful.  And holy fuck don't even get me started on the whole "Elliott was actually in jail the whole time" bullshit.  Damn.

I remember seasons 3 and 4 really getting it back on track.  I'll keep everyone here posted as I feel like it.  Hopefully season 2 isn't as bad as I remember.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Technico Support

[J.T.]

One day, I'll binge watch everything with fresh eyes to see how it shakes out, but the series finale still annoys me or at least the way that Elliot seems to will his way out of DID does.  It just adds to the mountain of misinformation and stereotypes surrounding the way people perceive mental illness.

Edited June 1, 2020 by J.T.

[Technico Support]

25 minutes ago, J.T. said:

One day, I'll binge watch everything with fresh eyes to see how it shakes out, but the series finale still annoys me or at least the way that Elliot seems to will his way out of DID does.  It just adds to the mountain of misinformation and stereotypes surrounding the way people perceive mental illness.

Great point about downplaying severe issues. I guess we're just to assume "Normal Guy Elliott" will take his meds from now on?  "I don't like these pills.  I feel nauseous and it's hard to get a boner, but last time I skipped them, my evil alter egos took over for a few years and destroyed the world's economy, so I guess I'll take them."  I need to see that as a disclaimer in those drug commercials.

Also, does DID ever work out in such a way that the true  base personality goes away for years?  But hey, I guess it's TV and playing fast and loose with science is what it doe

Edited June 1, 2020 by Technico Support

[J.T.]

47 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Great point about downplaying severe issues. I guess we're to assume "Normal Guy Elliott" will take his meds from now on?  Then again, does DID ever work out in such a way that the base personality goes away for years?  But hey, I guess it's TV and playing fast and loose with science is what it doe

I used to date a psyche major. 

It is possible for Normal Elliot's core personality to remain dormant for a long time if Hacker Elliot is the primary host who is used to dealing with the trauma.

The thing with Mr. Robot is that time is always relative.  Sam does a pretty good job of keeping us in limbo with the constant time dilation so we really don't know how much time is passing or if time is even passing at all.  

1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

Now what I'm not looking forward to is season two, easily my least favorite.  So much stuff in that season was Sam Esmail giving in to some really masturbatory, "let me cosplay David Lynch" tendencies.  The most glaring was Whiterose's whole scenario tormenting Angela in some room where she ostensibly had the Dark Army, what, build out a set?  Whiterose does this whole stage play thing to fuck with Angela and this is a character who is obsessed with not wasting a second of time.  Really awful.  

Which brings us to Whiterose.  Whiterose doesn't just want to avoid wasting time; she hacks time. 

Whiterose actually succeeds in rebooting the entire world order thanks to Hacker Elliot's help and she represents the confident control over reality that Hacker Elliot doesn't have.  

I'm still fuzzy on the whole deal with Angela, but there were one or two cryptic references in there relating to time (the obsolete technology like the rotary phone and the Commie 64).  I am not sure if Whiterose believed she could manipulate time or if he wanted Angela to believe she could so that Whiterose was able to comprise the person(ality?) closest to Hacker Elliot.

Most of that shit has to be symbolic since it was all happening in Normal Elliot's head.

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by J.T.

[Technico Support]

On 6/1/2020 at 11:22 AM, J.T. said:

Most of that shit has to be symbolic since it was all happening in Normal Elliot's head.

 

Not sure what you mean.  Not everything that happened happened in Normal Elliot's head.  Hacker Elliot took over his life at some point and did all the stuff that happened in the show.

I'm halfway through season 2 and I don't hate it as much as I did the first time, but it's definitely as slow and ponderous as I remember.  It sure looks nice and has style for days, but nothing much happens in terms of narrative at all.  We're 5-6 episodes in and the actual stuff that has happened could have fit in an episode or two.

[Craig H]

I remember liking season 2 quite a bit and making the argument on here that I binged the show on Amazon Prime, which probably made that a better watch for me than it did for others on here watching it week to week. I could see not liking it if you had to wait a whole week in between episodes in what was a slower moving season, but binging it and seeing it all at once worked for me.

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, Craig H said:

I remember liking season 2 quite a bit and making the argument on here that I binged the show on Amazon Prime, which probably made that a better watch for me than it did for others on here watching it week to week. I could see not liking it if you had to wait a whole week in between episodes in what was a slower moving season, but binging it and seeing it all at once worked for me.

That's probably why I'm enjoying it somewhat more this time around, watching an episode every night, not weekly like the first time.  Good point.

[Technico Support]

Oof and now we're into the back to back episodes that featured cliffhangers with shitty payoffs.  I remember bitching about them here during their first run! 

Darlene finds out that Cisco is reporting on her to the Dark Army and hits him with a bat!  Next episode: they have made up.  He was just doing it to keep her safe.

Cisco finds an injured man (offscreen) at the smart house!  Could it be the heretofore unseen this season Tyrell Wellick???  Next episode: Nope, just an fsociety redshirt.

@Craig H is right.  Bad cliffhangers like this are mitigated when binging.  They were brutal waiting a week between.

Aside from that, there's the season's first half central conceit of Elliot the unreliable narrator being in jail but working the viewer into not knowing that.  I guess it was a cool gimmick but that's all it was.  Sometimes I'm not a fan of gimmickry just for gimmickry's sake and there was really no good reason to tell the story this way, in my opinion, aside from just being cute.

I did love Price's confrontation and absolute ownage of Whiterose.  Looking back on the series, it's striking how pathetic of a big bad Whiterose really was.  Yes she had the power of the Dark Army behind her, but in the end she was just a sad, crazy person who built her life around the unattainable goal of building a time machine.  Price, the corporate mercenary, clowned her whenever it counted, and she killed herself in the end thinking her time machine would bring her back.  It didn't.

Disclosure: I know it was actually some sort of alternate reality device but I'm using the term "time machine" to note the absurdity of it all.  Also, the show featured a ton of Back to the Future references, so there you have it.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Technico Support

[Craig H]

So here's a question...Did Whiterose really construct something in the Washington Township Power Plant that she thought could reset time and in order to do that she had to meltdown the reactors? Or did she just think melting down the power plant would cause some sort of time reset?

On a related note, Whiterose would have fucking LOVED Dark on Netflix. That shit is right up her alley.

[J.T.]

44 minutes ago, Craig H said:

So here's a question...Did Whiterose really construct something in the Washington Township Power Plant that she thought could reset time and in order to do that she had to meltdown the reactors? Or did she just think melting down the power plant would cause some sort of time reset?

Sam Ismail has maintained that Whiterose's project wasn't a time machine.  Angela certainly believed that Whiterose was capable of somehow resetting reality aka hacking time.

Honestly, I think that Whiterose was just as delusional as Elliot if that weren't obvious.  Elliot's struggles were internal while Whiteroses's were external.

Whiterose was born into a society that will not accept her for who she is.  She's still in trauma from the loss of her lover and pours her energy into her work in the hopes that she can change her environment into one where she can be accepted and where her lover is still alive.  When that proves to be futile, she commits suicide in the hope that maybe she can reach "a better world" by freeing her spirit from her flesh ("I'm in a body I don't deserve to have.")  I don't think the machine would've worked, but what I believe isn't important.   Whiterose believes it will work.

More evidence that Whiterose and Elliot are polar opposites.  Elliot copes with his trauma by dividing his persona, while Whiterose copes with hers by focusing on her objectives with single minded purpose.  Both coping mechanisms are equally dysfunctional and destructive. 

What the function of the project is remains a mystery to me.  Personally, I think she was trying to construct a quantum computer to house an AI that could simulate the personality of her dead lover or any number of other people.

Angela is attracted to Whiterose's project because she too has not adequately recovered from the trauma of losing her mother.  She is vulnerable to Whiterose's manipulation and being able to communicate with the AI representation of her mother could've been the reason she sought Whiterose out.  It's just as far fetched as a time machine, but it feels a bit more logical.  I think the reactor meltdown was necessary to give the quantum computer the boost to fully power up and remain on perpetually.  Kinda like how Frankenstein's monster needed a fucking lighting storm to bring it to life.

Shit is still fuzzy and I really should revisit the final season when I am feeling masochistic enough to sit through the episodes.

It was around the end of Season 2 when I figured out that this was all a big psychology lesson and not really about a renegade hackter vigilante raging against society.

Edited June 9, 2020 by J.T.

[Technico Support]

21 hours ago, Craig H said:

So here's a question...Did Whiterose really construct something in the Washington Township Power Plant that she thought could reset time and in order to do that she had to meltdown the reactors? Or did she just think melting down the power plant would cause some sort of time reset?

On a related note, Whiterose would have fucking LOVED Dark on Netflix. That shit is right up her alley.

There's a scene, maybe at the beginning of season 3, that shows Whiterose's actual machine at the power plant.  So it really does exist (as much as anything can really exist in a show with an unreliable narrator).  With all the quantum talk and whatever, I think Whiterose's machine was supposed to open a way into a different reality and/or overwrite the show's reality with a new one that, in her view, would have been better for everyone.  I believe she says this at some point, but I'll get back to you after I watch it.

BTW, the FBI was working on a wiretapping project called "Project Berenstain," a sly nod to the show's alternate reality themes.

As much shit as I'm giving it, season 2 isn't as bad as I remember and has its bright points.  I like Grace Gummer's character.  The episode where Cisco dies at the end is REALLY good.  Two eps left in the season, including the Whiterose/Angela bullshit, though, which I'm not looking forward to.  But hey, season 3 is next, which brings us Irving.  Loved that crazy fucker.

Speaking of alternate reality TV shows, does Fringe hold up?

Edited June 10, 2020 by Technico Support

[J.T.]

The first season of Fringe is almost unbearable.  Every season after that is fucking amazing. 

White Tulip (S2, Ep18) may be one of the best hours of television I have ever watched.

[Craig H]

Fringe I think holds up. The first season of Fringe is good if just for the teases you get of there being another world parallel with ours and how those realities were going to collide. 

That largely plays out. I like Fringe a lot even if I'm not the biggest fan of Pacey.

[Technico Support]

2-3 eps left in season 3.  It's a really good season.  It's still tough to buy that Angela was totally broken and brainwashed by Whiterose after only an hour in her David Lynch Commodore 64 mind control chamber.  I mean I guess it works somewhat if you take the stance that Angela was already kind of a mess from her life's trauma and was susceptible already, but that's more headcanon/asking the viewer to make a narrative from vague connections than anything that was stated by the show.

When I initially watched the episode where Elliot wants to kill himself but then decides not to after hanging with Trenton's little brother all day, I found it really sappy and contrived.  Now I'm a little older and have a kid that I love hanging with, and I loved the episode.  It hit me right in the feels, as the kids say today.

[J.T.]

It is a pretty hard sell.  Angela has always been everyone's emotional anchor, so it is difficult to view her as a house of cards so easily blown asunder.

Given everything she's endured from the death of her mom to sexual harassment to being cheated on by ex-boyfriend and everything else without so much as a whimper, I don't believe she's been broken the entire time.  Angela was a brick wall coated in Teflon. 

For Angela to believe something as ludicrous as reality manipulation or time hacking is either a testament to Whiterose power of manipulation (ie. Angela is the victim of the ultimate form of social engineering), or maybe Angela's unresolved grief over her mother's death was far worse that we imagined.

All I know is that I hate the fact that Angela's death was just a footnote at worst and at best, her murder was some fridge crap designed to light a fire under Elliot and Price. 

I knew that Angela wasn't going to have a happy ending, but I didn't expect it to be bullshit.

And yeah, I hugged my kid really hard after the suicide episode.  Peeps with no kids just don't understand.

Edited June 17, 2020 by J.T.

[Craig H]

FWIW, I never cared for Angela, I cared more for Elliott, Dom, and Darlene. I would have been stunned and blown away if something happened to any of those three. That's why I thought it was fitting that Angela was so unceremoniously axed at the start of the season premiere because it was a fitting death for a character I couldn't care less about.

 

[J.T.]

I wasn't emotionally invested in Angela, but felt that the fight to right the wrongs of Washington Township was just as much hers as it was Elliot's, and I feel she got cheated out of her comeuppance and got the Red Wedding treatment purely to set the tone for the rest of S4.  

Angela learned the truth about her father but never discovered what really happened to her mother, and that's fucked up because it was her life's mission to find out.

Angela's murder wasn't nearly the gut punch that Shayla's was, though.  I think I was bummed for at least a week.

Edited June 17, 2020 by J.T.

[Technico Support]

I can believe Angela was an absolute mess from her characterization on the show.  In the first episode, she's kicked right off the E Corp case!  She's dating  total toolbag, her plan for revenge screwed over her company all all its workers -- decent people, especially Gideon, she absolutely fumbles through her whole revenge plan and would have probably had no success with Price pulling the strings, she runs to the law firm begging for a job like a lost puppy looking for shelter, she's pretty much an observer in her life with no agency at all, etc. 

Still, despite being shown constantly as being a flawed character, I still can't believe she's talked into believing in time travel/parallel universes over the course of one episode.

[J.T.]

To be fair, Angela is booted off of the E Corps account because Terry Colby was a misogynistic asshat.  It is weird in retrospect to now realize in S1E1 that Elliot is trying to thwart his own DDoS attack.

I found it difficult to connect with Angela because I never really knew which side she was on, even if it was her own.  If finding out the truth about her mother's death really is her primary motivation for everything she does, Angela sure takes the long way around to obtain vengeance she ultimately never finds..

Edited June 18, 2020 by J.T.

[Technico Support]

Just watched the episode where Vera and his crew hold Eliott and Krista hostage and force a therapy session, ultimately uncovering Elliot's abuse.  Tremendous episode, absolute top notch acting by Malek, but also by everyone involved.  Villar's acting in especially his final scene, tearfully interacting with Elliot, was amazing.

[Technico Support]

Also watched the following episode, where DiPerro goes all Dom Wick on Janice and her crew, while pulling the switch with Lucky Irish Bastard.  *chef's kiss*

"I had to give em a holy show back there."

"SPEAK ENGLISH!"

"I shot em in the brains.  With me gun."

Domlene coming together for their eventual team-up is great.

[J.T.]

9 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Just watched the episode where Vera and his crew hold Eliott and Krista hostage and force a therapy session, ultimately uncovering Elliot's abuse.  Tremendous episode, absolute top notch acting by Malek, but also by everyone involved.  Villar's acting in especially his final scene, tearfully interacting with Elliot, was amazing.

My journey through to this episode earlier this year just reminded me what a terrifying villain that Vera is. 

He is played up as a thug and a buffoon for the most part, but you never get a taste of how ruthless and smart he really is until the episode where he coerces Elliot into breaking him out of jail by threatening to kill Shayla.... who has been dead the entire time that Elliot has been feverishly hacking the network of the New York Penal System. .

The audience underestimates Vera because Elliott does and then we all find out far too late just how bad Vera really is.

Malek and Villar have a better protagonist / antagonist chemistry than Malek and BD Wong did, IMO.

Edited June 24, 2020 by J.T.