Kev

To be fair, that was under 2 years into Foley’s run. Miro and Lee were both around longer than Foley (not including his various comebacks). Im not making any particular point here, but it’s interesting to think how some of the modern guys who we still think of as ‘new’ have had far longer runs than some of the legendary runs from the past.

With the talk of WWE going back to the big guy signings, my instinct is that it won’t work as the core audience simply doesn’t really want that. I feel like the modern fan tends to be a lot smarter (for a lack of a better term) than even 10 years ago and there’s a certain expectation of good wrestling (again definitions on this may vary). It seems to me that WWE going this route would just turn more of their current audience away and is another example of contempt for their audience rather than trying to cater to them (and the fans who’ve been tuning out). But I think it’s an interesting topic, similar to the WWE as Marvel talk in the purge thread. Is this just another Vince whim or is this driven more by the likes of Khan and the real business guys? Like is there a business model for this? Is there an example out there (in wrestling, sports, entertainment of whatever) where a company has pretty much actively turned off their existing fan base while successfully expanding by picking up a new audience?

I think this is fair and, when you frame it like that, it is maybe one of the better stories they could tell at the minute. I think I’m more bemoaning the overall booking of Nyla, I think if they’d handled her better since the start then a Nyla title challenge should still be a bigger deal than a foregone conclusion defence. For a company that generally develops their characters fairly slowly and let’s their stories play out (see Hangman), it feels like they’ve burned through Nyla pretty quickly. She’s a dominant monster heel but she never really got that dominant monster run (but did have a title run so at the same time it feels like she’s already reached her ceiling). I think she’s fine in a gatekeeper role, but I feel like there was more value in her before settling into that role. You mention her only losing 3 times in a year, but (without checking) I’m not sure that would even stand up as that impressive amongst the other women as they don’t tend to burn through big matches. And I think those 3 represent her losing every featured program she’s been in during that time (Shida x2 and the tournament final).

I think this is fine in theory, plus they’ve got the ‘I already beat you’ thing, which is a simple story. I just think Nyla’s been beaten too many times to really be considered a major threat, along with her weak title run and lack of TV time it seems obvious they’re done with her as a major player in the division. So for Britt’s first defence it just seem like far too much of a foregone conclusion to be interesting. If they actually slow burn it over a few months, have Nyla pick up some momentum and have some dotted interactions with Britt along the way then it could work better. Otherwise it just comes across too much as a filler feud, like how WWE would always throw Kane out as a challenger to fill a ppv cycle. They really should get her away from Vickie though. I think giving her more of a coach who can improve her and bring out the beast (which is what they should have done instead of Vickie) might be something that could win her back some credibility and extend her usefulness a bit more.

I thought there was quite a lot of weak stuff here, even taking into account it being a bit of a cool down show. Opening tag did nothing for me. Heel Bucks have been an improvement but they’re still frustrating. Although they’re doing plenty of cheating it still feels like they’re presented overly strong. They’re running through too many teams, I don’t think they need to be wrestling as much, have them ducking matches and stuff. I liked Matt’s dive fakeout spot but the clothesline at the end was ridiculously weak, to the point it felt like Pac should have been no selling it. Andrade with Vickie is a bad move for me. Vickie’s act seems dated so putting her with a hot new act kind of brings him down by association, he looked cool though. Even going back to WWE, while she is a heat magnet, it pretty much all goes on her rather than the wrestler, so I don’t think she works as a manger. Andrade might need someone to do some talking for him but she’s not actually a good talker, she’s an annoying talker (hence the heat), I don’t think she does anything to build her acts. At least in WWE she was usually doing the GM abuse of power thing, but her act now is just her having an annoying voice. I don’t think it’ll overly hurt him but still a bad move. I like how they tried to explain Private Party’s attire as a douchey heel thing, problem is their original attire looked far douchier. T-shirt gesture was nice but intense face Jericho is shit. Giving Sammy, Santana and Ortiz more limelight is good but the weekly IC promos are a bit much. Although the quality in the women’s division has improved, the stuff featured here made me think that it’s still really lacking in terms of characters. Brit is essentially the top face now, while playing the role of an annoying heel, I quite like that they seem to be letting her just stick to the character while positioning her against heel Nyla, but I’m not sure how it’ll work in terms of building good stories longer term. I like Nyla but I think she’s been killed off as a major threat and see previous comments on Vickie. Red Velvet I like in-ring, but the ‘straight out of your momma’s kitchen’ intro and stirring the pot thing seem massively forced/lame. Feels like they need to do more to develop who she is. Bunny is ok but the ‘I’m Krazzy’ mannerisms are embarrassing. Sky really isn’t a good promo, I just don’t believe him, Page really comes across as a douche, but Sky screams ‘I’m playing a character’. I like him as a heel but he lacks the charisma to really be a featured act. Miro promo was probably best thing on the show. Dustin win makes sense as I like that they’re kind of establishing a hierarchy of the vets just overcoming some of the younger prospects. I think it gives the younger guys more room to grow longer term, gets some losses out of the way early so they don’t have to worry about a win streak becoming a booking burden and it’ll make it more meaningful when younger guys actually get those big wins.

Cody’s a weird case, even going back to WWE, I think when he’s bad he’s really bad. His WWE run was generally solid, if unspectacular. But then I thought the masked heel thing was really bad, just dreadful acting which I found hard to watch. And the Stardust character was fucking awful, that was an embarrassed to be watching thing for me, hissing at the crowd to try to get heat ffs. And I think he was pretty heavily credited with creative input on both of those. But he’s done enough good stuff, especially post-WWE, that I don’t think you can totally dismiss him in terms of creative, he’s maybe just someone who needs to be reined in and told to keep it simple.

On the WWE as Marvel thing, I don’t think it’s a like for like at all, but my interpretation on that is WWE should be building a meaningful WWE universe where the different brands represent their own little worlds and characters can crossover. Theoretically, they’ve got this already but the issue is there’s just not enough thought behind any of it. Each brand should really have its own identity (I don’t know what these should be, maybe a hardcore show as a quick example, just something tangible that sets them apart) as it stands everything is largely homogenous, moving between brands doesn’t really represent any different kind of challenge. I feel like they just need more logic all over. If NXT is a developmental/minor league then frame it such and have some rules around how/why people can move up/down. But even the rules they have about people appearing on Raw/Smackdown quickly get forgotten or changed on a whim. I think they really need to try to get back to more long-term storytelling as well. I’ve largely stopped watching now but when I do I’m struck by how meaningless a lot of it feels. It just doesn’t feel like there’s long term story arcs in most cases and they seem to beat anything good into the ground so quickly. I got off on a tangent about my frustrations with WWE but there’s a point in there about how they should be making the WWE Universe more than a pointless marketing slogan.

Oh they definitely did neuter the character pretty quickly but I remember a brief few month run when he initially turned face, from earning Benoit’s respect at Survivor Series through to beating Show for the US title at Mania, where the character retained the edge but shifted to facing heels.

I dunno, if someone is charismatic/funny/cool then that in itself tends to make them likeable enough. Very early face Cena (I’m thinking late 03-early 04) is actually a good example of how to do it, he was still basically the same character but he’d started to back it up in the ring and fought heels. If you went back to when The Acclaimed fought then face Young Bucks and imagine the face/heel roles were reversed, would Caster’s rap still work? I can’t actually remember (something about Nick’s hairline maybe), but I’m gonna guess it still would.

I think their characters can easily work as faces. Just have them face heels and stop the cheating, I don’t think they’d need to lose any of their edge. Stopping the cheating even works as a natural progression of their characters as we’ve seen them getting better to the point they don’t need to cheat to win. It’ll be interesting to see how this sort of stuff plays out over the next couple of months (Baker being a similar case) as, because of the pandemic, I don’t think AEW have ever really had to deal with a situation of a crowd turning someone. Cody’s always talked of not being concerned about mixed reactions and heel/face distinctions so we’ll see how much they stick to that.

I pretty much agree with all your other points but I’m not sure this bit works. I think Lana’s recent role and Alexa’s in the Cross team aren’t really comparable. Alexa’s generally been booked overly strong comparative to her size and in-ring ability and I’m not sure she was ever booked as overmatched in that team, Cross was always positioned as the no. 2. They were sympathetic but I think that was based more on the audience seeing their friendship develop (which I think was initially being setup as an Alexa manipulation thing).

Yeah, he played a pretty traditional babyface role in the MJF feud that followed and it produced some good stuff. The initial TNT title run was also pretty good, with him slowly becoming a bit more cocky and showing heel tendencies, but it never paid off. The return after the first Brodie match seems to have been the real turning point, his character work has been pretty consistently bad since then.

Thoughts from elevation. I’ll preface by saying I enjoyed it mostly, was nice to see some of the crowd reactions and thought the out of ring was simple, effective stuff to build up some lesser matches. Now to the nitpicking. Caster seems like he’s gonna be mega-over, I think Bowens needs to show something more or he’s gonna quickly become the other guy. Maybe if he threw in some power spots as he feels very generic at the minute. His finish, while not totally bad-looking, is kind of needlessly complicated. Hirsch is missing presence for me, she is really small and, despite her in-ring being decent, she just doesn’t project enough threat to make up for her size. It’s been suggested before but I could maybe see a move to Team Taz working, ECW Taz vibe of mini no-nonsense shooty ass-kicker is what I’d be aiming for. Thunder Rosa’s finish is a bit weak, bit of a convoluted setup and it’s not obvious enough how it actually hurts. I still think Pillman looks too sleazy for his current role, get rid of the beard and mullet. I tend to skip Swole matches but from what I saw here there hasn’t been much improvement. It feels like the division has passed her by after being quite well featured earlier on. Nyla also feels like an afterthought. I think she’s maybe been AEW’s biggest booking failure, they had her lose too many big matches too early and she’s lost the monster aura now. I suppose there’s still some value in her as a sort of gatekeeper but I think they could have stretched out her arc more. Vickie also adds nothing to the act and her signing really feels like a misstep.

To me this shows how shitty the WWE booking philosophy is cos I’m seeing a pretty big roster there. Get rid of a couple of the unnecessary titles, cycle the women round, mix up the matches more (plus I’m sure there’s PC women they could be using as jobbers) and that really shouldn’t be considered a small roster. Its also a mostly really good roster as well, but I have little desire to seek out matches because so many of the combos feel totally played out (mostly on the main roster).

Again, I don’t think that’s an indictment on the PC though, it’s an indictment on how WWE uses (or rather wastes) so many of their wrestlers. Realistically, NXT is more super-indy/third brand than actual developmental. I wouldn’t class Ricochet as having really been in WWE developmental. He was a 10 year plus vet when he signed and was pretty much immediately put on TV in a featured role. I assume his time at the PC was largely about learning production stuff, where the cameras are, etc. Has Ricochet became a worse worker since 2017? I think that’s unlikely. If he’s having worse matches I think that’s because of the role he’s playing. I think there’s various criticisms of WWE’s general shitiness which are being conflated to make a point about the PC being a failure.

Yeah, so this talking point seems to have mainly been brought up about Conti, but as you say, there’s plenty of examples of good PC-developed talent. If anything, the Conti example is more an indictment of how bloated the WWE roster is. Conti’s basically gone from no more than a name jobber in NXT, to a more featured role in AEW and she’s stepped up to it. But look at all the women that were above Conti in NXT alone. If AEW had all that talent would Conti really have been given this opportunity. The mammoth pandemic Dark tapings have also helped here as it’s unlikely Conti would have had as much time to shine pre-pandemic. I do think there’s legit criticisms to be made in how WWE transitions some of their PC talent to TV and more featured roles, but the Conti talking point isn’t the gotcha that people seem to think it is.

Ah that makes sense. It’s a weird little thing that almost feels like it should totally kill kayfabe or suspension of disbelief, but I’d never really given it a second thought. On the topic of hair, what about the Bret-style wet look? Would that be a similar ‘it helps the illusion’ explanation or do guys just think it looks cool?

Random thought - why do so many long-haired wrestlers not tie their hair up for matches? I’ve never really thought about it, until recently realising how stupid it looks. Surely it’s inconvenient. Especially when you have someone like Reigns who seems to mainly tie his hair up outside the ring, why would he decide to wear it down when going into a fight. Is it a Vince thing that just became the norm or have wrestlers always done this?

Assorted thoughts from what I caught of this week’s Dark shows. Why have Private Party started wrestling in dress clothes? It’s a pet hate of mine, it’s just one of those things that screams ‘this is fake’. Their previous gear was a great douche heel look as well (albeit unintentional as they were wearing it as faces). Speaking of gear, the jobber team that Scorp & Page beat should really change their gear as they totally look like a knock-off Street Profits. Daniel Garcia looked like he has potential but needs some work. His stuff all looked good but he had some really goofy selling and mannerisms, which I think stood out more as he has a very bland serious wrestler look. Is that Janela DVD one of those death moves that is actually relatively safe (like is Janela actually taking most of the impact and protecting their neck) or is it a broken neck waiting to happen? I’ve been more impressed with Cage recently. He seems to be working a lot smarter. He still got plenty of shit in against Mike Sydal, but he was mostly playing with him and didn’t give him any kickouts. He got the balance right of showing some vulnerability (mainly through his own cockiness) and letting the undercard guy get some hope spots in while still looking dominant, rather than making himself look ineffective and turning it into a my turn/your turn kickout contest. Also threw in a new (for AEW) finisher, which means he can build a big near fall into bigger matches without killing off the drill claw. Although the move itself is overly convoluted shit.

That whole opening to the Mox/King match was really fun, from Wild Thing to Caster’s rap to Mox smashing Bowens mid catchphrase. I feel like they use some variation on “you’re a bitch/I’m gonna make you my bitch” far too often as an ‘edgy’ cheap pop line. Hager and Archer pulled it out this episode. It also feels kind of out of place/cliche in 2021. I did like Miro’s reaction though, calmly brushing it off. Despite the criticisms of Miro’s early run with Kip (and I don’t want to open up that discussion again), I think his character is more well-rounded for it. He’s this charismatic, normal, chill dude who plays video games with friends, expect he’s also totally not chill and will absolutely wreck your shit. I thought Spears was pretty good in the Pinnacle segment. I think somebody suggested it here already, but shifting his character to a real of piece of shit sociopath is a good fit, rather than just being another cocky guy. Although it was mostly a foregone conclusion, I liked them building the Blondes with the quick highlight package and promo time. Griff is someone who does nothing massively flashy (by modern standards) but pretty much everything he does looks great. The sharpshooter always feels a bit out of place in the Bucks move set to me so I wasn’t a massive fan of the finish. I’m liking their heel work, but I still think they’re miscast as ‘the best wrestlers’. Oh and thought the Kenny-OC segment was low-key really fun. Kenny absolutely should be using the EVP role to lean into the power trip thing.

I noticed Harwood shaking his head and showing off his wedding ring as well when Tully was offering up the ladies. The bit did seem a bit out of place in 2021, especially when it’s pretty openly known that at least two of those guys are married. I suppose openly cheating on your spouse on tv would be a dick heel move.

Caster’s rap has been getting the attention but I liked the Acclaimed vs Janela/Kiss match on Dark, and it feels like you can really seeing the Acclaimed getting better. Thought it was nicely worked around Janela’s leg. The execution wasn’t always there but some good ideas. Sonny is partly dreadful, partly decent. Shoehorning the splits into half his offence looks consistently bad, but the rest of his stuff looked pretty good here.

Did anyone else notice that Miro pulled out that king-sized gutwrench after the gif of Nathan Jones wrecking Jarrett was going around this week? For maybe the first time ever something can be described as Nathan Jones-esque and it’s a positive. On the point about Cody being disconnected from the rest of the show. Isn’t it a bit strange that he’s not being brought into the Kenny/Bucks angle at all? There should surely be some tension there with the other EVPs becoming total dickheads.

I think, in theory, that’s right. The issue is it’s such a non-event and ultimately feels pretty meaningless. Contrast with AEW (who’s booking is far from perfect), Adam Page beating Matt is on ppv and has a multi-week story wrapped around it. Beating Jeff should feel like an achievement in a similar way (and probably moreso as Jeff, in kayfabe at least, is a bigger deal than Matt).

If we’re gonna be pedantic about that spot the issue isn’t with the leap frog (I mean it’s hardly high up on the list of athletic spots in 2021), but the drop down. The leap frog makes sense as a getting out the way thing, but isn’t a drop down meant to be a trip attempt. The ref was clearly trying to sabotage whoever that is by hitting a drop down.