Matt D

Accidental double post:

Does anyone have the animated gif of Del Rio's first match (I think, maybe his second) in WWE, when he did the wink to his opponent on the apron before shoving them off? I think Morton has a point there. Keeling over realistically sells a heel as more brutal and calculating which works well for a face while taking a ridiculous flip bump off of a punch or chop sells a face as being super strong (like in the Hennig gif) which works well for a heel. Basically more subtle selling works better for a face whereas over the top flips and flops work better for a heel. I really want to go back and watch some Rockers matches now because off the top of my head, I don't entirely remember how Michaels sold as a FIP, but if I had to guess, it'd be over the top.

Neither here nor there but I love the WCW Ads in and around 96 where they were hawking shirts and stuff for the WCW Catalog. That's pretty much all I have to say about Public Enemy.

Then I'd probably get Kris Z.

Were I still 19, I'd jump all over this ript shirt today.

I don't think I would ever commission an action figure, but if I did, it would absolutely be a Real Man's Man Regal 80s style Gi Joe one.

Hey, I already tried to summon John by saying Shazam.

Yeah, and I'm sure that even if he doesn't want to go back to Mexico, someone who can work, was on WWE TV for years and has the ability to work a puro-friendly style could be in NJPW within seconds of his non compete ending. So don't cry for ADR. THAT SAID, if homeboy really made a Mexicans do domestic work joke and didn't apologize, he got off light and as a man I can't really knock Del Rio for his actions. Actually if that was the case, couldn't we potentially end up with a Bill Watts-ian lawsuit?

It takes a bit of time for them to show up?

I wonder if we look back to WWF and what happened to tag teams and if we see a trend there or not. US Express: Both guys leave. For a while they team Rotunda with Spivey. Later on Windham returns as a singles and then Rotunda returns as IRS Sheik/Volkoff: Sheik is fired. Volkoff ends up with Zukov even after Sheik comes back. He is turned babyface in 90 and is actually an upper mid-card face for that summer. Killer Bees: Brunzell stays on as an enhancement talent. Rougeaus: Ray becomes a broadcaster and Jacques becomes the Mountie. Dream Team: Beefcake breaks out as a singles star and Bravo ends up replacing him. Later on Bravo becomes a midcard singles act and Valentine ends up feuding with Garvin and teaming with Honky Tonk Man. He eventually breaks out of that teams as a babyface to put over up and coming heels on his way out because Honky leaves as their program was going to start. Young Stallions: Both guys leave. Islanders: Tama leaves and Haku becomes an upper mid-card singles heel as the King, and later part of the Colossal connection and then a lower mid-card heel singles act. British Bulldogs: They leave. Davey Boy comes back as an upper mid-card face. Strike Force: Martel turns upper mid-card heel with a gimmick. Tito languishes as a near-enhancement face (though always over) until late 90 when he gets featured in Survivor Series and then becomes El Matador in 91 Powers of Pain: Warlord to Slick. Barbarian to heenan. Both guys work as mid-card heels, neither reaching the level that they probably would have a couple of years earlier. Demolition: Crush comes in. Axe leaves. They repackage Crush and Smash as completely different characters (for the most part). That Bret and Shawn had so much success was important, but I also think it was the WWF style to break up tag teams for the most part. They even tried doing it with Bret once or twice before it set in completely in 91.

You're the only person on the board that doesn't just download the things to get them 4 hours earlier.

Thanks for the clarification. I love the formula. I believe more in the southern tag formula than I do in any religion in this world, and more than I believe in most people. I do think, from the outside looking in, that part of using the formula is understanding why the formula works and why you should be doing A or B or A instead of B, and I get the impression that sometimes people go through the motions without trying to understand the why behind them these days, but that's just an impression.

I'm not saying that in a fifteen minute match the heat has to be exactly 7.43 minutes. My main point is that ninety-five times out of a hundred there shouldn't be twice as much shine than heat. It doesn't matter how long specifically any of this is, but the heat's the part of the match that pulls the crowd in and builds anticipation and it's fairly unsatisfying to watch a match which has a stub for the heat and way too long of a shine. That said, there are exceptions, sure, but they're exceptions. I've seen matches where smaller guys aren't dominating the bigger ones in the shine, but instead controlling them with limbwork or using speed to make sure they're not getting touched and that works on some level because it builds a sense of dread for the impending heat. "If he just gets his hands on him, what will happen!" I don't think that's the case in a lot of the lionized and highly remembered 80s WWF tag matches. It's more a case in matches involving teams like Demolition or the Powers of Pain that probably aren't as well remembered but that I imagine hold up better (I know people can't say enough good about the 01/15/90 Rockers vs Powers of Pain match, for instance.) In general, the formula works best when there's more heat than shine and, as Vic rightly indicated due to time limitations and as I will add now, due to the fact that Dynamite had a complex, that's not usually the case in the well remembered 80s WWF tags. That's all I'm saying.

There are patterns over time though. Also wrestling works like that more in 80s WWF than anywhere considering the way they kept the same cards night after night for months.

I don't know. I think I'm calling John in to hammer everyone with statistics. I think eight minutes in a fifteen minute match would be almost as bad given you need a minute or two for the comeback.

God dammit, Sweetser. You're not helping. The point is this: Shine is great. 10 minutes of it in a 15 minute match is not.

I'm not sure that would play out and even if it did, That doesn't make it right. There's a reason those Demolition matches stand out as more structurally satisfying.

Yeah, it's shine. How long it lasts, relative to the heat, is a key element to how good tag matches are. In British Bulldogs matches the ratio is usually flipped. One of the reasons that the heel Demolition matches stood out so much in context was that they didn't allow the faces to so blindly take SO much of the match.

That's different than there being none at all.

It's not. At all. Let me summon jdw.

I wouldn't say that Hennig couldn't work. I would, however, say that he was much, much better pre-88 than during 88-91. I'd also say he was better in 1993 than in 1988-91. The Mr. Perfect run that most people remember fondly isn't nearly as strong as what people remember it to be. The matches just aren't there, though there are a couple I really love like the December MSG match vs Piper. Hm, what else. I'd say that you can't unsee AWA Hennig, and it's obvious how neutered he was in WWF. In fact, I might say that he was more neutered than any wrestler I can think of upon jumping to WWF. I would say that John Nord had a better Summer 91 - Summer 92 than Hennig had a Summer 90 - Summer 91.

I think when Mysterio comes back they should give him the Mr. Perfect 00s gimmick.