Graham Crackers

God damn it, that sucks. 1/3 of my favorite team in wrestling history.

We've already seen a couple of brawling tags and trios so far but none of them have been as violent or as epic as this one. In this match it's the stiff striking instead of the gore that really makes it so harrowing. I think part of that is due to Los Infernales upgrading when they added Pirata Morgan. Morgan adds a lot as he feels like a serious ass kicker but is also a wild bumper when he has to be. This lineup of Los Infernales turns double and triple teams into thuggish onslaughts. They don't do fancy triple teams, they just all drop b's on an opponent. It can be as simple and brutal as Satanico muscling an opponent around in a clinch while MS-1 throws nasty punches to their kidneys. La Fiera and Faraón already made great opponents for Los Infernales in their last scrap but they both manage to top those performances here. Faraón is a tremendous brawler and Fiera outdoes the suicidal missed tope from that match when he manages to fly off the top rope and land headfirst outside the ring. Egipcio is pushed into the foreground in this match as he spends most of it brawling with Pirata Morgan and they both make you want to see them in an apuestas match. By the end I was marking out for Egipcio's punch combos during his comeback despite not really having strong feelings about him going in. Good finish too with Egipcio and Pirata Morgan have their final showdown in the ring after everyone else has been taken out by dives on the outside.

I was a bit lukewarm to El Faraón at first but he's grown on me after the last few brawls. I didn't know what to expect when this turned out to be a title match but I definitely didn't expect El Faraón to turn in such a great performance. He was great on the mat. I liked that rather than carefully set things up on the mat he would just grab Atlantis and take him down hard. There was a roughness to much of his offense that was fitting for a rudo in this setting. When Faraón was on defense in this he was even better. He took really took the time to effectively sell the pain of each hold before trying to escape. Atlantis was a bit of a disappointment here. He wasn't awkwardly playing to the crowd after every bit of offense this time around but his selling was definitely a bit too hammy. I thought it was appropriate for selling Faraón's axe bombers but he was already writhing around in agony during the first fall. This escalated nicely and settled into a fun final stretch run. This is better than some of the weaker title matches early in the set but doesn't reach the heights of the Mocho Cota vs Americo Rocca series or Satanico vs Gran Cochisse.

This was a nice way to get back into watching this set after a little break. Something that I find alternately alluring and frustrating about lucha is how little of it's history we really know about and all of the classic matches we don't have on tape. What better way to hint at that forgotten history than a dateless match from 1985 in some arena in Sonora featuring three workers I've never heard of before. Much like this match, those mystery workers aren't revelations but they are pretty good. They're good enough to suggest that they may have had many other good matches and maybe even some great ones that we'll never see. Climax and Loco Zavala have some interesting exchanges and I can easily imagine that they have matched up before. Climax has some nice high flying and Zavala is a good chubby base. They match up well and even do a few spots I don't remember seeing before. The one wrestler in this one I do know is Mocho Cota and unsurprisingly he shows off all the qualities that have made him so impressive in other matches on this set. He has some nice mat exchanges with Raul Reyes Jr (who looks like a solid hand himself) but Cota's even better when he is just pouring on the rudisimo. I am loving him sneaking around the ring in tags and trios matches. He seems like someone who will stoop as low as he can just to win a match. I think this is somewhere in the middle of the pack at this point.

Were they saying Ringo at the beginning?

I won't profess a great knowledge of bullfighting but being barbaric doesn't mean it can't also have a rich tradition. One could argue that boxing, mma, and good old pro wrestling are barbaric sports with rich traditions.

1984 Rankings: 1.) Gran Cochise vs. Satanico (9/14/84) 2.) Solar, Ultraman y Super Astro vs. Sergio El Hermoso, Bello Greco y Rudy Reyna (2/26/84) 3.) Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (1/27/84) 4.) Tony Salazar vs. Herodes (3/2/84) 5.) Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs. Hair) (7/30/84) 6.) Hijo del Santo, Ringo Mendoza y Chamaco Valaguez vs. Jerry Estrada, Fuerza Guerrera y Talisman (3/9/84) 7.) Gran Cochise, Villano III y Rayo De Jalisco Jr. vs. Fishman, Mocho Cota y Tony Bennetto (11/30/84) 8.) Perro Aguayo vs. Sangre Chicana vs. El Faraón vs. Villano III (Elimination Match) (10/84) 9.) El Satanico y Espectro Jr. v. El Faraón y La Fiera (8/12/84) 10.) Atlantis vs. El Satanico (1984) 11.) Satanico vs. Super Astro (10/26/84) 12.) Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca (2/3/84) 13.) Sangre Chicana vs. MS-1 (Hair vs. Hair) (9/21/84) 14.) Atlantis, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar vs. El Satanico, MS-1 y Espectro Jr. (9/28/84) 15.) Lizmark vs. El Satanico (April 1984) 16.) Enrique Vera vs. Dos Caras (2/26/84) 17.) Atlantis y Lizmark vs. El Egipcio y El Faraón (2/17/84) 18.) Sangre Chicana vs. Villano III (12/7/84) 19.) Javier Cruz, Impacto y Solar II vs. El Dandy, Franco Colombo y Panico (10/84) 20.) El Faraón, Herodes y Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar (2/24/84) 21.) Villano III vs. Perro Aguayo (10/7/84) 22.) Javier Cruz vs. El Dandy (Hair vs. Hair) (10/26/84) 23.) Jerry Estrada vs. Ultraman (3/2/84) These may change, especially after I watch some of these matches again but the top 3 are pretty much locked. I did watch match number 9 again and while it wasn't easy to follow every moment the crazy finish and truly wild violence really make it stand out. This seems like a pretty good year for lucha going by what we have and Satanico has a pretty good case for WOTY.

Sangre Chicana is incredible. Tim is right about these first two falls being similar to the original Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 match but it's such a good layout that it's hard to hate on it. His comeback is so simple. It's just a punch and a tope but it's timed so well that you don't need anything more complicated. Villano III is a natural to play the role of guy who beats up Sangre Chicana for most of the match. Unfortunately there isn't much of a third fall so this won't be going too high in the end.

Now that is a fun trios match. Mocho Cota continues to impress as a complete scoundrel. It feels like he's constantly up to something. I love when he ducks behind the apron to sneak to other parts of the ringside area. I love him arguing with old ladies. I like him trying to tell the ref he has been fouled when he very clearly has not. This seems to be building to a Gran Cochisse/Mocho Cota hair match with both of them constantly going after each other. Gran Cochisse's comeback was pretty spectacular and I sort of love how commonplace it is for babyface comebacks during this era to contain guys biting open their opponent's forehead. I liked the way the rudo team controlled the match during most of the chaotic brawling stretches but the tecnicos would dominate individual exchanges in the ring. I love a good Rayo de Jalisco Jr match and his stuff was really fun here. His exchange with Bennetto in the first fall built around Rayo's feints was as good as Rayo gets. Villano III was great as his team's enforcer. it felt like whenever someone from his team was getting cornered Villano III was there to back them up. I don't think this will be a super high ranking match but it was fun enough that I'm sure I'll still remember the best parts when the set is over.

The draw finish with both guys having to get their head shaved was pretty poetic as both guys should have been trying to win the match. In a hair vs hair match when pride is on the line you should be trying to win. These guys were busy showing off offense when they should have been going for pins or submissions. In some ways this was the brawling equivalent to the Santo/Atlantis vs Fuerza/Lobo Rubio match from earlier. This was about young guys pushing the pace of wrestling faster. When they were just brawling it looked good and they had some interesting ideas for spots but stuff like the 2nd fall overkill DDTs without a follow up hurts this. Pulling your opponent up off the mat during a pin when you haven't won a single fall yet seems foolish. Santo/Atlantis vs Fuerza/Lobo Rubio worked because they worked within archetypes as old as wrestling itself but put their own spin on offense and pacing. This had it's moments but ultimately they lost sight of what really mattered.

I don't think piledrivers became illegal until the late 80s early 90s. You will see many more piledrivers on this set.

I liked this a lot though I think this is another really good match that will end up in the middle of the ballot because it's not great. I liked that Satanico dominated and Super Astro only managed flurries of offense. Super Astro's flying looked as beautiful as it usually does. I like all of his tope variations. I'm surprised I don't see indy guys do the tope en reversa more often. Speaking of his headbutts, that one where he's on his knees and bridges back before unloading a headbutt was pretty cool. Still, this lacked the kind of big moments that push a match from good to great.

I have a feeling there won't be a lot of people reading this thread before watching the match so a lot of people will probably be going into this with no idea what the rules are. I really hope they watch this with an open mind and try to piece them together as this match goes along because if they do they will find a lot to like here. The opening fall as I understand it was designed to set up what the initial matchups would be. The two wrestlers eliminated first had a one fall match against each other and the two winners of that fall had another one fall match against each other. Then the winner of both singles matches faced off in a 2/3 falls match. Oy.There was a lot of malice on display here and having the wrestlers who were not participating in a given fall constantly throwing in cheap shots gave this a pretty tense atmosphere. The Perro Aguayo vs Sangre Chicana match up that finished this lived up to the promise it showed on paper. It's not the best brawl on the set but we've already seen some of the best brawls in wrestling history on this set so the standards are high. It delivers blood, great punches, and some dramatic dives so I definitely liked it. As I've said before, nutshot finishes are the best bullshit finishes. This is a pretty epic kick to the balls right here. I love the way Sangre Chicana stands almost frozen with his own disdain for Perro Aguayo after he hits the foul. Aguayo may have won by DQ but with the crowd rushing the ring and chanting "Chicana" we all know who really won this match.

I watched the first few minutes of the match again and the announcers are clearly saying Ringo. I'm not sure what had me so confused. Maybe they were just talking about Cachorro later in the match. Sorry about that.

Was that Shadito Cruz as the referee in this match?

Yeah, I definitely think we are missing something here because I also only saw the finish to two falls. We were definitely JIP at the beginning and there was also a sudden clip not too long after that. I didn't hear anything about it on the commentary though I wasn't listening very close to this one either. What we do see is pretty good though being incomplete hurts it. This set has had lots of great punches so far and this match was full of them. Dandy especially has a nice mix of different punches. The air he gets on those sentons are pretty impressive as well. He's only a few years into the business here but he already looks great. Trios matches so often have multiple people being pinned at once or in quick succession that it's really cool to see them have wrestlers eliminated at different times. Having each team lose one man made that final stretch of Dandy vs Cruz pretty exciting. Dandy teaming with two CMLL bookers is kind of funny considering his relationship with the CMLL office in the last dozen years or so.

Uneven is the word. I liked some parts and hated others. I saw these names and instantly thought brawl but I saw this was a title match and adjusted my expectations. It was living up to them at first with some interesting early matwork built around using leverage to pin your opponent. I'm a sucker for that stuff. Part of me was disappointed when they left the mat but I'm not really too sure what kind of mat game Perro Aguayo really had. Surprisingly this turned into a bit of a bomb throwing juniors affair and I can't say that's something I really wanted to see. Some of that stuff was cool but Aguayo's offense was a bit repetitive and the match was probably too long for what it was. Villano III did look pretty good and I'm still excited to see more of him on this set. I actually popped for his dropkicks to Aguayo's legs to capitalize on the missed double stomp. I'm not sure I've ever seen that spot done during this era. I wonder who the first person to do that was. And then we have the double pin. Man, another one? The double pin is turning into the lucha set equivalent of the New Japan DQ for throwing a guy over the guardrail finish. The post match stuff was fun but also a bit of a tease. Perro Aguayo looks way more at home in that setting than in this kind of workrate match.

Until you take your daughter out to a lovely father/daughter lunch, and some asshole approaches your table and tells her how much he loves watching her get fucked, and "How much would it cost to get to fuck her, too?". Would you also think your daughter was "asking for it"? Would you tell your daughter she brought it on herself or would you offer her moral support? This is an extreme situation and one in which I'd hope you would take your daughter's side regardless of if you supported her decision to enter the sex industry. Anyway, I'm getting a strong sense that very few people in this thread if any actually know a sex worker or somebody involved in advocacy for sex workers' rights. There is a lot of unfortunate ignorance being tossed around in here.

I guess I'll post my top 25 again:1.) Nick Bockwinkel vs Wahoo McDaniel (No DQ) (8/28/83)2.) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87)3.) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs Midnight Rockers (8/30/86)4.) Tito Santana & Rick Martel vs High Flyers (8/29/82)5.) Jerry Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Al-Kaissie vs High Flyers (Cage Match) (4/18/82)6.) Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig (11/21/86)7.) The Crusher & Greg Gagne vs Jerry Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Al-Kaissie (Cage Match) (3/25/84)8.) Stan Hansen vs Curt Hennig (5/31/86)9.) Jerry Blackwell vs Mad Dog Vachon (Algerian Death Match) (5/22/83)10.) Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig (5/2/87)11.) Bill Dundee & Jerry Lawler vs Original Midnight Express (10/30/87)12.) Ken Patera, Jesse Ventura & Bobby Heenan vs Hulk Hogan & High Flyers (3/13/83)13.) Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86)14.) Nick Bockwinkel vs Ric Flair (1/17/86)15.) Jerry Blackwell & Ken Patera vs High Flyers (11/24/83)16.) Stan Hansen vs Leon White (3/13/86)17.) Jerry Lawler vs Kerry Von Erich (12/13/88)18.) Nick Bockwinkel & Masa Saito vs The Fabulous Ones (9/30/84)19.) Nick Bockwinkel vs Rick Martel (9/20/84)20.) Ken Patera & Brad Rheingans vs Badd Company (3/25/1989)21.) Buddy Rose, Doug Somers & Sherri Martel vs Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (11/27/86)22.) Stan Hansen vs Jerry Blackwell (6/28/86)23.) Nick Bockwinkel vs Col. DeBeers (4/17/86)24.) Jerry Blackwell & Ken Patera vs Blackjack Mulligan & Jerry Lawler (3/4/84)25.) Jerry Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Al-Kaissie vs Baron Von Raschke & Mad Dog Vachon (Taped Fist Match) (3/13/83) And my bottom 5: 146.) Jerry Blackwell & Ken Patera vs Steve O & Buck Zumhofe (2/3 Falls) (4/15/84)147.) Wahoo McDaniel vs Curt Hennig (Indian Strap Match) (11/28/87)148.) Steve Regal vs Buck Zumhofe (11/28/85)149.) Wahoo McDaniel & Tom Zenk vs Manny Fernandez & Larry Zbyszko (2/7/89)150.) Col. Debeers vs Jimmy Snuka (Coal Miner's Glove On A Pole Match) (2/21/87) If it makes you feel any better, I have that match at number 27.

I'm with you on this. If we had more matwork in this one it'd be an easy number 1 for me but at this moment I don't know if I like this or MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana more.

As requested, here's a thread for errors on the DVDs so that way we can keep Chris in the loop. here are the only ones I've spotted so far: Hijo del Santo, Ringo Mendoza y Chamaco Valaguez vs. Jerry Estrada, Fuerza Guerrera y Talisman (3/9/84) I'm pretty sure Ringo Mendoza isn't in this match and that's actually his brother Cachorro Mendoza.

I'm glad we get to see the original Infernales lineup together one last time on this set. This is more of a traditional trios match than the last one we saw them in. It's pretty good too although not quite the devastating spectacle the last one was. We get more of the Atlantis vs Satanico match up in this one. Satanico looks like such a force in these exchanges and Atlantis ends up getting hurt. Atlantis trying to will himself back into this match ends up being one of the important stories in this match. It alternately places him in the role of face in peril and AJPW style injured partner trying to make the save. Mendoza and Salazar hold down the fort pretty well. I've said it every other time I've seen him on this set but Tony Salazar is someone I want to see more of. He just feels like a badass oldschool babyface. I love his punches and it was pretty cool to see him bust out more takedowns and flying moves this time around. I really dug all of his exchanges with Espectro. MS-1, similar to the trios match almost a year earlier, just wants to get in everyone's face and that makes for a good rudo character. Back to Atlantis vs Satanico, I noticed the way Atlantis was kept out of the finish of the first two falls and I just knew he'd have to be involved in the third fall finish. We ended up getting another mask removal finish, which as far as BS finishes go is pretty good but not as great as a foul. The mask ripping didn't turn up until late in the match so it didn't feel as satisfying as Santo's mask getting ripped off on the last disc but it didn't take away from the match either.

Their first match is so perfectly simple and there's no way they can top it. This is worked as a more competitive brawl than the original. I mean, Sangre Chicana actually hits some offense in the first fall this time. He still spends most of this match selling a beating and it's still some great selling. This one has a few more bombs/dives and they are all pretty cool even if the first match is better because it doesn't have them. The tope that launches MS-1 back a few rows is pretty awesome and is one of the top 3 dives on this set so far. This is really good, it's just not transcendent like the original.

I just wanted to give everybody a heads up about the order of matches on the third disc. This is the order they are appearing in on my disc: Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka (Hair vs. Hair) (7/30/84) El Satanico y Espectro Jr. v. El Faraón y La Fiera (8/12/84) Gran Cochise vs. Satanico (9/14/84) Sangre Chicana vs. MS-1 (Hair vs. Hair) (9/21/84) Villano III vs. Perro Aguayo (10/7/84) Satanico vs. Super Astro (10/26/84) Javier Cruz, Impacto y Solar II vs. El Dandy, Franco Colombo y Panico (10/84) Perro Aguayo vs. Sangre Chicana vs. El Faraón vs. Villano III (Elimination Match) (10/84) Atlantis, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar vs. El Satanico, MS-1 y Espectro Jr. (9/28/84) The menus however are still labeled as if the matches are in chronological order so if you click on Atlantis, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar vs. El Satanico, MS-1 y Espectro Jr. (9/28/84) then Villano III vs. Perro Aguayo (10/7/84) will play.

There was some brawling that looked pretty great throughout and I especially liked that Fiera used the spikes on his jacket as weapons during the first fall. There were a few moments during the two on one beat downs where I wasn't sure where the other wrestler was and how they got isolated. I'm not sure if that was because I was distracted, the bad video quality in some places, or a flaw in the match. I just feel like I missed some important transitions somewhere. The finish was pretty awesome though. La Fiera's missed tope was pretty sick and already took me by surprise but I didn't think Faraon would instantly follow it up with a tope of his own. I saw a lot I liked in this one but I think I need to give it another watch.