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Go2Sleep

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Everything posted by Go2Sleep

  1. Not just that, but they actually influenced WWE's in-ring style too. NXT in its current state doesn't happen without ROH.
  2. Booker T, and I'd say Kurt Angle counts too even though there were some push and pull factors at play there. But TNA being in this conversation is a joke, since they are worse head to head with Crockett/WCW by every metric imaginable. I'd rank ROH above TNA in terms of significance to American wrestling.
  3. Unless WWE does a big pro-freedom-of-the-press angle on this show, I don't see this line getting anyone back on WWE's side here. I want to laugh at this being the best their PR team could come up with, but I guess they can't fall back on "we need to entertain the children and hardworking families" when the entire floor section across from the hard camera is a garish set-up for the entire royal family.
  4. Don't know if it's necessarily something you want to be known for, but Pentagon might be the best intergender wrestler I've seen.
  5. Short of the GOP itself, WWE is probably the most virulently pro-Trump entity in America right now. As long as the adminstration's line is "yeah, but look at all this money" you can bet WWE will follow suit. The only thing Vince and Donald hate more than losing money is admitting they did something wrong, and Vince is actually the more insulated of the two.
  6. There's a Cesaro/Kidd/Ziggler match from a SD near the end of 2014. It's a an elimination match, but the triple threat portion stayed away from the usual "2 in 1 out" formula for the most part. Second most successful company is WCW, because people still talk about it and recognize the name 17 years later. Plus Revenge set the standard for wrestling videogames.
  7. How many more episodes are left this season? It sounds like UL 4 is coming up soon. I hope the new Rabbit Tribe wins the belts and gets a new opponent for UL 4. We need a some trios with chemistry, that match this week was one of LU's worst.
  8. Marty is the second weakest champ in company history, and while he's decent in the ring, he's not good enough to make anyone buy into him as a top guy just because he's "so much more aggressive now." /michaelcole Like who is really looking forward (insert top LU guy) vs. Marty the Moth? They could've run the exact same angle with King Cuerno or the new Fenix and been way better off. I'd even include Killshot, except then Son of Havoc would be in a serious LU title feud.
  9. Heel Fenix is awesome. Some of his mannerisms are over the top and cheesy, yes, but uh... This is Lucha Underground and he's playing a character whose mind has been altered by death and time travel. He's modified his offense to include more kicks and the Black Fire Driver is pretty sleek, even though there's no way he can do it to much larger opponents. I was very impressed with the reaction that match got from the crowd. That was easily match of the season as far as I'm concerned. His beatdown on Azteca was nice and efficient too. Everything else on the show didn't work as well for me. They should've let the 3-way run longer (what a disappointment that match was) and had Marty just pin Pentagon right away. Why were they doing two extended "babyface valiantly fights a losing battle" sequences on the same show? Marty as champ feels rushed and underwhelming. He just doesn't seem like a good focal point for the promotion. If he and Cuerno traded roles for the last two shows, it would've been infinitely better.
  10. Steamboat is a guy that never tried to be a heel, not that was incapable of being one, and I think that's a big difference for this thread. It reminds me of a couple years ago when people said Bayley could never be a heel. In both cases, there were some potential heelish directions that could be taken with their characters that were just never explored. And, particularly in Steamboat's case, there is enough talent that it shouldn't be assumed they can't do it without seeing it tried. Rey Mysterio actually tried to be a heel for a few months, and it was well below his talent level at the time. He would be my front runner here.
  11. Huh, they finally let Renee in the booth on a main show. Might actually have to watch Raw this week. Different topic, but thinking about the mediocre wrestler thread, I was wondering what was the best non-gimmick tag match the Dudleys had?
  12. I'd put Chavo and Randy in the category of "decent wrestlers who stuck around too long." Both guys had extended runs of solid work and some positive attributes that put them above "mediocre." It's just that it's been at least 10 years since we've seen that from either of them.
  13. I think he was in Aztec Warfare, but I've mostly blocked that show from my memory.
  14. The first 10 minutes was usual goofy LU shit. Nothing exceptional, but segments like that are the heart and soul of the show, and there's some significant character development. Killshot/Steve was way better than I expected as the match was announced. Heel Killshot using his technique and skill to wear down a burly tough guy worked really well, and Havoc's presence didn't detract from the story. Hernandez coming back was whatever, but I'm definitely looking forward to Pentagon/Cuerno. Cuerno has been the most under-utilized talent there by a lot, so it's good to see him finally get another major program. I'd be pretty happy if he got a title run while he was at it.
  15. You don't remember the match where Sting debuted? I can kinda see the other two getting lost in the WWE shuffle (but seriously refresh your memory on the Del Rio Payback 2013 match, it's one of WWE's best this decade) since their product has been indistinguishable by year since 2008, but Sting's first WWE appearance seems like a hard match to forget. Not that the vast majority of Dolph's career hasn't been mediocre, but there's enough evidence out there to show he isn't incapable of being a babyface as the thread title suggests.
  16. Ziggler has some really inspired babyface performances. Some of his face runs overstayed their welcome, but his top work is all as a face. The double turn match against Del Rio, the Surivior Series 2014 tag, and the Miz title vs. career match. I don't think he's done anything as a heel that sniffs those three matches.
  17. I'm surprised the thread has gotten this far without mentioning Jeff Hardy. Did TNA ever try to make him a heel? I know he was briefly a heel as part of the New Brood, but I wouldn't say he was particularly good at it.
  18. I got two words for ya: Billy Gunn D-Von Dudley is another guy that could qualify depending on how you interpret the question. Gunn at least had the physical attributes to justify an attempted push. D-Von really had nothing going for him, never had anything resembling a good singles match and very few good non-gimmick tag matches, but undoubtedly had a HoF career. He basically took the formula for Billy Gunn's best 2 years and stretched it out to 20.
  19. Yeah, I could see Miz pulling off a righteous defense of Maryse act as a babyface. One current guy that isn't important at all but fits the question is Erick Rowan. That guy is just meant to be quiet, ugly muscle. Remember when they tried to make him a genius wine-maker?
  20. Low-key challenger is Edge and Christian vs. The Hardys at Unforgiven in a cage. Those two teams are remembered for their ladder matches (and the TLC at Summer Slam of this year is indeed a brutal spotfest that holds up to today's standards), but this was such a nice feud-defining match for both teams with real focus on character work and heat-building before getting to the big payoff spots. They replace the hot tag trope with Jeff leaving the cage too early and desperately trying to get back in before E&C can double team Matt to death. Lita gets involved towards the end and it feels like the only real triumph the Hardys ever had E&C once they actually became E&C (that Brood/new Brood shit doesn't count). The whole match is a neat little fusion of Crockett-era tag work and attitude-era spotfests. Also, there's the Misawa/Akiyama match in February, from what was basically AJ's last hoorah before the NOAH split. One of my favorite Akiyama performances as he goes from the blue chipper who couldn't win the big one in AJ to the surly NOAH ace in one match. After 5 minutes of being out-classed by Misawa like every match before, Akiyama is like "Nah, this time I'm just gonna break your fucking neck." The last 20 minutes is basically NOAH Akiyama having his way with a wounded prey, finally subverting the AJ cliches of their previous matches. Misawa, of course, was not shy about leaning into the neck bumps to sell the story.
  21. Mustache Mountain vs. UE was good. I'm not quite willing to say I like the O'Reilly/Strong team more than the Revival in the ring, but I'm working my way up to it. Tyler Bate looked really good in this one too, both selling and on offense. That spot where they built on the airplane spin/giant swing combo with KoR moving into a sleeper while Roddy was drilling Bate with up-kicks to the face, then transitioned into Bate doing a deadlift German on Roddy with KoR still on his back was an absolutely beautiful piece of tag team wrestling. Bate's dive and rebound lariat sequence was nice too. Only complaint was that it seemed very unnecessary for UE to kick out of every MM finisher, including their team finisher. Even if Bate and Seven are going to WWE UK, never to be seen again in Orlando, that was excessive. Dream/EC3 was ok, but seemed worse because it was well below the quality of an average TO match. Why EC3 was working as the face until the end was a mystery. Just lean into the obvious face/heel dynamic and don't work against the grain. At least Dream finally got a big win. The NA title match was solid, but could've been a lot better. Ricochet is best on offense and Adam Cole is best as a weasely opportunist heel, so the standard heel control formula doesn't work to either of their strengths. That said, the back and forth part of the match was really good and brought the overall quality up significantly. Of course that superkick spot was amazing on its own, but I liked that they set up by Ricochet countering a similar spot earlier in the match. The strike exchange was one of the better ones I've seen lately. Finish was good and fit the story of their feud that Cole would try to bail when he was outmatched, but this time Ricochet didn't let him escape. Ricochet is the ideal midcard workrate champion, so I expect good things with his title run. The women's title match was also good with surprising finish. It almost had me wondering if that was supposed to the finish because it was so sudden. Great change of pace from the usual big match style. All I could think about after the main was how much better it would have been with Aleister Black in it. I'm pretty over Gargano/Ciampa singles matches, as they've gotten more bloated and less special each time since New Orleans. I get what they were going for with the finish, but at the end of the day, your top babyface has gotten beat by a handcuffed man twice now. Neither guy really has anywhere to go from here and one of the most promising feuds in company history has dialed down my interest greatly. The exact same spot with Black there to pick up the pieces and take his title back would've been great, though.
  22. Tough to see heels winning all 4 title matches. I think they either pull the trigger on Gargano, or Ricochet wins the NA title.
  23. Black being out hurts a lot. Not that I don't expect Gargano/Ciampa to be great again, but his presence freshened up the match and puts them in a tough booking spot where they either have to pull the trigger on Gargano's win now or risk dragging the storyline into diminishing returns territory. Feels unfair to everyone involved, but injuries are a motherfucker. I expect Ricochet/Cole to deliver, and despite also being a three-match, Strong/KoR vs. Mustache Mountain feels like it has a lot more mileage left than the main. Sane/Baszler looks good on paper too. The Dream/EC3 match is interesting. Dream really needs a win here, but they seem insistent on pushing EC3 despite not really coming off as a big deal in NXT.
  24. Gargano and Ciampa are gonna push a lot of people down a spot when their NXT runs are over. They have become the NXT's iconic feud, at least on the men's side. Really, a lot of wrestlers we're seeing right now in NXT are going to re-shape this list in a couple years. NXT is the strongest it's been since Dallas, and it hasn't been bad at any point in between. The Ciampa injury might have been one of the luckiest breaks for NXT, since it has stretched out the Gargano/Ciampa run much longer than it otherwise would have gone, and it feels that much more integral to the brand because of the extra burn.
  25. Yeah, LU feels very TNA-ish now.
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