Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

Burgundy LaRue

Members
  • Posts

    7,645
  • Joined

  • Days Won

    2

Posts posted by Burgundy LaRue

  1. 18 hours ago, Bryan said:

    With the women they could be given more time but part of the issue is that with the exception of Britt Baker (and Thunder Rosa who they’re obviously trying to keep away from Britt until a ppv), none of the women consistently hit home runs. I recall Big Swole getting really over with the crowds and getting multiple tv matches in a row but she wasn’t very good at wrestling, so I assume they’ve been training her on Dark. Nyla and Kris Statlander had an abysmal ppv match, etc.

    I don’t think looking at the champions is fair given the amount of time the company has existed for and how all of the reigns have been long.

    And everyone who has been champion makes sense based on how they’ve performed.

    You also didn’t count the women title holders which is interesting.

    That being said, I think AEW has hired too many people based on what I assume is personal connections over actual talent. That’s the only way I can explain how guys like Joey Janela and the vampire guy that got fired because he was abusive towards women got hired over some of the guys from your list.

    I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Sip or spit.

  2. @Stefanie the Humanhit on some of my biggest gripes. The lack of stories for the women is sad.  Their match is often in the death slot of the seventh quarter-hour, to cool down the crowd before the main event. They push no other women beside Britt Baker. Hikaru Shida was champion for over a year, yet she can't get any TV time these days. Nyla Rose isn't in a much better spot. Big Swole and Diamante's feud should have been featured on Dynamite. Hopefully with the arrival of Ruby Soho, we'll see the women's division get more focus. Though Ruby getting her big moment on All Out only because of PAC's travel issues doesn't give me a lot of hope.

    But at least the women who've been champion have been diverse. That's more than I can say for the men. Save for Scorpio Sky and now the Lucha Bros, no man of color has been in a high spot. It looked like Sky was going to get a solo push, but he's back in a tag team. It reeks of AEW being a private club where only those with big names or who are friends of The Elite. Someone recently put together a list of 500 black wrestlers, many of whom are indie. AEW could have easily signed several of these wrestlers, but are just now getting around to offering Lee Moriarty a contract. The excuse of them still being a young company doesn't fly with me. If anything, that means they can look at decades of wrestling being embarrassingly late to diversify and avoid the same problems. Powerhouse Hobbs and Ricky Starks are being set up to work with Punk, it seems. So maybe things will get better on that front, too.

    I have some other issues with AEW, but those two are huge. They built their company on a platform of inclusivity, but I'm not seeing it.

    • Like 5
    • Thanks 1
  3. 7 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

    Now, this to me is a REALLY interesting conversation: AEW as prestige television. Remember when Lost was airing? I wasn't an active poster here yet, but I remember the great thread here and it was so much fun watching you guys dissect Doc Jensen's EW columns. I spent A TON of time in high school/college reading all these books and researching all these literary references and religious allegories just for that show. 

    Could I see someone committing to AEW on that level? I honestly don't know. It *is* a very savvy, very passionate fan base. 

    Hmm. Admittedly, my TV viewing has greatly decreased over the years, so I could easily be lagging behind on how it's approached by younger audiences. Thinking back to when I got into GoT, I hadn't read a single book. Still haven't and likely never will. I followed the threads here, but mostly because I was in the Movies & TV section, anyway. I wouldn't have actively seeked out anything otherwise. I felt like I understood what I needed to know without going further.

    I haven't looked at wrestling as prestige television. Interesting idea, though.

    • Like 2
  4. 15 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

    This kind of response to a small minority criticism of AEW's presentation seems disproportionate. I wonder why some people have been reticent in engaging with this product. 

    Over the years, I've had several here assume that I only watch/follow/recognize WWE when it comes to wrestling. Which is presumptuous and rude. I'm no expert, but I'm not the dumb fuck-bitch some take me for.

    I follow AEW. I watched All Out. My opinion doesn't exactly correspond with the majority, and I don't need to be told how stupid I am for that. I've done the constant arguments on the board before, and I'm pretty sure I took several years off my life for it.

    Do I consider myself a huge AEW fan? No. I don't care for the fake-trendsetting frat boy approach from many of their wrestlers and diehard fans alike.

    They do several things well. But--in my opinion--they stink on other things. Pretty much like every other wrestling or sports entertainment company.

    Could I eventually become a dyed-in-the-wool fan? Don't know. I'll follow along for now and see. But I'm not looking to be part of online shouting matches anymore.  I'm too old and sickly for such.

    • Like 1
  5. 3 minutes ago, J.T. said:

    Bah.  If you don't know who Minoru Suzuki is, you haven't been watching enough pro wrestling.

    I could see if we were back in the days of tape trading and we were all like, "Holy shit, dude.  Have you heard of this guy Sabu that moonsaults into tables on purpose?" 

    But we're not.  We have YouTube and Dailymotion and stuff.  If your pro wrestling acumen exists between the Rio Grande River and the 48th Parallel North, that's not really my fault.

    Most people watching any TV show don't and won't do research to that level. They want to enjoy what's in front of them in that moment as easily as possible. Again, a quick clip would have sufficed, especially for potential new/casual fans. That's all.

    • Like 2
  6. 17 hours ago, paintedbynumbers said:

    Fuck this company I hope AEW wipes them off the planet 

    That would be great for the thousand or so employees who had nothing to do with this, but would suffer from unemployment during a pandemic. 

    What happened with Zelina is garbage. Rollins-Edge didn't have to go 25 minutes. They could have cut one of Heyman's backstage segments. That would have been the time needed to do a women's match or have Zelina give a speech.

    How they brought her back under the guise of traveling with Aleister/Malakai again only to release him is super shady. 

    There's no justification for such poor time management. Whoever is running the show has to make sure Zelina makes it on air. And that goes for most of the other women, too. SD's glaring weak spot is they only focus on whoever is in the women's title scene, currently Becky and Bianca. Sonya gets some time as an official, but all the other women are stuck backstage. Zelina's situation makes it worse.

  7. 2 hours ago, J.T. said:

    Eh, I enjoy the ROH-style lack of handholding.  Fuck em if they don't know who Minoru Suzuki is.  I personally don't need context.  I know who he is and why he deserves respect and the rest of those assholes need to get up to speed.

    The forbidden door is open.  Study up.  Broaden your pro wrestling horizon.

    This is beyond condescending.

    Not every wrestling fan is as deep inside the bubble as we are. They may not honestly know who Suzuki is. AEW didn't have to give a full rundown of his career. But a 30-second video of him in Murder Grandpa mode would have been helpful to someone being introduced to him. And it would have further enhanced Mox's victory over this human buzzsaw.

    The assumption of diehard wrestling fans that everyone watching is a walking encyclopedia for it is arrogant AF.

    • Like 4
  8. 3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

    I'm one voice in a sea of many. But I want to throw my support to the like what you like movement as well. Just don't expect others to have to like what you like too. That's where the disconnect is (at least from what I'm gleaning). 

    As I said, having a different opinion isn't the issue for me. The harassment and name-calling is. If someone can't communicate without doing that, then it's a problem.

    • Like 2
  9. 5 minutes ago, Raziel said:

    Except that this behavior is exactly why there's no discussion in the WWE threads.  It's not because there's a lack of interest (even if their ratings are dropping), there's no discussion because most of the people that like WWE have been bullied, name called, and harassed off the board (and I am guilty of this in the past as well).

     

    And most of those people will reply "Good" to that.

    It's assumed we're making up these things or are being overly sensitive. Many of us have been on this board for years, and can give as much as we take in arguments.

    But why go into a show discussion thread when the mass majority in the thread aren't actually interested in talking about said show? It was like that for a long time.

    And that's not to say anyone should pretend to like something they don't. By all means, say your piece and we can go from there. But don't resort to name-calling when another poster has another viewpoint.

    Was everyone like that? No, obviously not. But the group who were ran roughshod to where a number of us threw up our hands and stopped participating.

  10. 25 minutes ago, BrianS81177 said:

    If you're enjoying WWE, more power to you. 

    The point is to not verbally abuse someone with an opinion different than yours. I don't think AEW is as good as some here do. Some of Dynamite is enjoyable, some isn't.

    But you know what I haven't done? Called someone out of their name over it.

    (not accusing you of that, just reinforcing my issue)

    • Like 1
  11. On 8/21/2021 at 4:09 PM, Kev said:

    Yeah, I think people are mostly civil here, but I do feel like there’s been a bit more of a general anti-WWE sentiment the last couple of years. 

    Several of us have flat-out been called stupid sheep for supposedly being pro-WWE. Some folks have been awful in the past and honestly, the rest of you do nothing to call them out for it.

    • Thanks 1
  12. 12 hours ago, The Natural said:
     
    This.

    Vince hasn't been in the 'professional wrestling' business since WM I. Max Landis is apparently a predatory creep, but he was right about WWE: it's not wrestling. Not in the way diehard fans tend to label it, anyway.

    It makes me think about how Martin Scorsese said Marvel movies aren't true cinema. He ruffled feathers, but it's easy to see why someone like Scorsese would feel that way. The same holds true for WWE, on a much smaller scale.

    Like Marvel, WWE wants to be a continuous line of content. The level to which anyone finds WWE entertaining or successful is a personal choice. But we need to stop acting as if Vince and others haven't said this before. We can agree or disagree with the mindset. But they don't view themselves that as a wrestling company and haven't for nearly four decades.

    They want to get to talent on the first floor and build them so they fit a certain role. Is that a paint by numbers approach? Of course. But it's easier to mold someone who's new to sports entertainment than to recalibrate a long-time indie darling. And, at least in the beginning, it's also cheaper. Not that they'll completely ignore the indie scene, but they won't rely on it as much going forward.

    "But that's like creating a line of robots!" Welcome to capitalism. That's always the heart of Vince's thinking, Reaganomics follower that he clearly is. 

    "But that's cold and unemotional!" Becoming a billionaire is. And make no mistake, every billionaire has some of the same qualities as Vince. Commerce over art and ethics. With WWE making more money then ever, Vince's vision is literally paying off for him.

    If you're looking for top to bottom wrestling artistry in WWE, it's not for you. And that's fine. They have some good stuff going on, but no one is obligated to watch or follow.

    But again, we have to temper our expectations/fantasy booking with reality.

    • Like 10
  13. 8 hours ago, just drew said:

     You could start a pretty decent Indy Fed built around just the folks who's careers have been cut off at the knees so Roman Reigns and Charlotte could collect brass rings. 

    Considering how Roman has dealt with so much BS himself, this statement is a bit misleading. Besides, what are Roman/Charlotte supposed to do, tell Vince they don't want to be pushed? And based on last night, Charlotte may have nothing on Becky Lynch in cutting off someone's career if we're going down that road and depending on how Bianca is treated like this.

    Moving to the rest of the show:

    Kickoff match was solid. Big E's dive will always scare me. Wonder if they'll continue with Corbin trying to steal MITB as a story.

    RKBro winning was expected, but done pretty well. Can't get excited for Riddle, but the guy is talented.

    They could have done Alexa-Eva Marie on RAW, but they played it fairly straight and kept it short. Eva Marie isn't completely hopeless in the ring now, still rough going though. Apparently Lilly dolls sold like hot cakes, so don't expect that to go anywhere soon. Take that as you will.

    Credit to Sheamus, he can turn a crowd around on a match they don't initially care about. Him and Priest started slow, but things picked up when they went to the bomb-throwing. Thought Priest had messed up his back/hip on his dive. Right guy won.

    Usos-Mysterios just click. We've seen this in several variations, but it was still good stuff. Interested if they'll go full-on with Dominik being a prodigal son.

    Talked about the SD women's dumpster fire already. McInytre-Mahal was there.

    RAW women's triple threat was pretty good, though they were throwing and dropping each other in ways that made me jump. Charlotte has to stop with the moonsault. If the SD women's division is a mess, the situation for the RAW women feels like a tire fire. They probably keep going with these three into the fall, provided there's no draft.

    Edge-Rollins was really good. Loved the Brood entrance and the Dracula/Alucard dynamic. 

    Lashley got cheered for beating up a 15-year-old kid in front of his broken-down dad! That's ice cold. Match was a mess, and looks like Goldberg legit blew out his knee. But the post-match stuff was quality.

    Enjoyed Reigns-Cena a lot. Cena bumped more than I expected, and Reigns was giving him the business pretty hard in spots. I like that Roman is still doing the in-ring talking, he's great at it. They laid out the story well and for me, it worked. Brock's return as Viking Goro was a surprise for me, though it shouldn't have been, with Saudi around the corner. Heyman's hysterics were fantastic. How they have Roman's opponents come out as he just wraps up a previous contender is neat. 

    If I'm USA, I'm upset. FOX currently nearly all the big names: Roman, Brock, Cena, Edge, Rollins, Becky. It's lopsided and even with a draft, I think USA will still get hosed somehow. They're getting the leftovers.

    • Like 2
  14. Hope we find out what happened with Sasha. Because DAMN.

    There was a pic floating around of Sasha, Bayley and the former Kalisto at a restaurant on Friday. Bayley had on a heavy knee brace, so it's accurate. Sasha was in town and presumably well enough to be in public. 

    Even if you want to cut WWE slack in maybe they were hoping Sasha would get medical clearance (if that's the case): why on Earth would they do that to Bianca? They spent the entire year building her. Rumble win, WM moment, endorsements, appearing on national talk shows, ESPY awards. And the crowds love her. All for her to get beat in 20 seconds by a half-assed Becky Lynch punch?

    Bianca looked like a goof, Carmella was sent out there to die with the crowd, and Becky's win was met with a collective "WHAT WAS THAT?" Bad scene for everyone involved.

    Something has to be up. I guess we'll find out soon.

    I'll talk about rest of the show later, but wanted to get that off my chest.

    • Like 8
  15. 33 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

    You're probably right -- and hell, maybe Roman still holds a grudge over not being in Punk's original hand-picked Shield lineup, and the "make Roman look tough" quip -- but I think the question is less "is what he said true?" than "is what he said useful?/what does it accomplish?" Because if he's heeling, then he's babyfacing another guy for another company; and if he's just stating a truth for it's own sake, then it's a pretty soft criticism (everyone knows Punk is a big enough star that WWE would have happily paid him millions for a comeback), and invites the question of whether Roman himself is a bigger deal than The Rock or Cena (and he's not). 

    There's no love lost between Punk and Roman, for reasons that have been killed, buried, and killed again.

    Roman didn't say Punk wasn't over. He said he wasn't as over as Rock and Cena. That's true. He said he understood Punk's argument against bringing back part-time guys who are taking spots that could be used for younger, full-time talent (Roman has alluded to this in previous interviews where Punk wasn't mentioned, so he seems to actually feel that way). By noting how/why many of the part-time guys get those spots, he's indirectly implying that Punk would have been afforded a similar setup, had he stayed in WWE. Why Punk didn't stay has been exhausted 100 times over, so no need to rehash.

    Nor did he put himself on Rock/Cena's level. The closest he came to that is by highlighting Cena's Hollywood career and how if Cena took time from his schedule to challenge Roman. Which is self-validation that he's the big catch in WWE today, but not going overboard with it.

    I think Roman was speaking his truth while being fairly kayfabe. It may line up with Vince's POV, but I suspect it's something Roman feels and not merely because he's drinking the juice.

    All this also rattles cages. For all the talk about 'new wrestling warz!'--this is red meat. I think Reigns understood that.

    As for the Moxley quote, that was purely in character. He also mentioned how Seth was doing great but he wasn't the top guy, either. 

    • Like 6
  16. For all the talk about Vince and Nick Khan being hatchet men--and make no mistake, they are certainly that--Triple H brought a lot of this to his own doorstep.

    Sending only a few folks up to Vince over the past couple of years while hoarding the rest was a mistake. Especially so with the women. It raised questions about what was going on at the PC. The big man class for guys who should have been taught what Vince wanted before moving up was a big red flag. And since he's footing the bill, you can't tell Vince not to come look around. Factor in Nick Khan who is consolidating WWE, and it spelled trouble for NXT. So now anyone who's seen as having no chance of being on the main roster has to go.

    Hunter wanted to turn NXT into his own fiefdom, a super indie with WWE's money and muscle behind it. Which went against the original mission of developing new talent into potential main roster stars. He hired a bunch of indie top guys who weren't ever going to impress Vince. So eventually, he winds up with a PC full of 5'9" 180-lb cruiserweights with MMA tendencies who want to put on 45-minute sagas. The rubber was going to meet the road at some point. Nick Khan simply put his foot on the gas to take the car out of cruise control. That's capitalism for you.

    Losing the 'indie' cred didn't help. I'd say much of that was out of NXT's control. It was one thing when they could claim to be an alternative to WWE, despite being WWE-owned and supported. But with AEW actually being an alternative, even with its faults, the 'smarties' predictably moved in that direction. NXT may not be in a golden era right now, but it doesn't stink, either. It's a decent-to-good show.  But the landscape had changed. NXT needs to regroup and adapt. Become the developmental program it was originally designed to be. Up and comers with a few veterans mixed in with most moving up at some point.

    As much as it stings, WWE had 350+ wrestlers signed at one time. No way they need that many. We can't accuse WWE of hoarding, then get mad when they finally realize it and course-correct, however much it stinks. Eventually, the dam was going to burst. From a personal perspective, it's lousy. Seeing someone like Bronson Reed being let go, who felt like he had a chance to catch on with the main roster, is tough. But if we're being honest, many of the cuts weren't going to ever make it to RAW or Smackdown. And they couldn't stay in NXT forever. Budget cuts don't mean a company is in need of money. It's often meant to streamline business, especially for stockholders.

    Hopefully, everyone can catch on somewhere else. They're talented and capable, and there are lots of opportunities available. I wish them all the best.

    • Like 13
  17. 14 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

    That's well over half the lineup for a whole episode of Raw, which is the main brand. 

    Except RAW is the main brand in name only. SmackDown has Roman, Bianca, Sasha, Rey, Rollins, Edge, Big E, Usos, Street Profits and a trio of new women in Shotzi/Tegan/Toni. Also, the stronger commentary team.

    Some of this will change with any upcoming draft, of course. USA isn't going to allow their cupboards to be this bare for much longer. But Roman for sure will stay on SD. And WWE seems committed to giving the blue brand a good presentation.

    • Like 2
  18. 4 hours ago, Rev Ray said:

    I'm surprised but not really since they basically gave his gimmick away.  I think he is a creative guy by accounts.  I liked his work as husky Harris but year, his fiend stuff has been underwhelming ring wise because a to me the guy who thinks he has powers as actually works better than someone having powers. 

    He's been mostly gimmick for so long don't know if the motivation is still there or the potential was squandered.

    The supernatural part is what doomed The Fiend, IMO. Look at the 2019 HIAC match with Seth Rollins. Rollins hit Fiend with everything: 11 curb stomps, stairs, toolboxes, ladders, sledgehammers, cartoon mallets. Nothing worked. How is a wrestler like that supposed to be booked to eventually lose? It was more heavy-handed than Taker when he was first introduced.

    To go further, the Taker/Fiend comparisons were wrong. Taker was a much simpler gimmick. And he was introduced to us as a mythical being from the start. We had swamp preacher Bray first--who was dark and creepy, but had no particular powers. He becomes The Fiend and it worked at first, but it was always going to hit a snag when he had to wrestle and no-sold everything.

    Bray is clearly a creative guy. I can easily see him going into movies, both as an actor and writer. But his characters tend to go in a direction where they wind up cornered with no good way out. Some of that is on booking/creative. But some is on the character's origins, especially Fiend. And by most accounts, Bray was given a lot of freedom to develop his persona. And that's before getting into his in-ring work being hit and miss.

    If Bray didn't ask for his release, it stinks, just like the other firings. But Nick Khan has been brought in as Vince's corporate headhunter. He's phasing out a lot of the long-term talent, along with anyone he thinks they've hit a peak with. WWE has always been built around a handful of big names, but it feels different now. Maybe because they're at no risk of going out of business this time with all the TV/streaming deals. Khan is taking Vince's philosophy--WWE is an entertainment company first and foremost--and pushing the gas to full speed. It's not pretty or polite. But it's not supposed to be, not in this captialist world.

    Interesting times.

    • Like 2
    • Sad 1
  19. Cena's promo seems to suggest that he thinks Reigns is more or less the same guy he was a few years ago. It'll be interesting to see how they approach the story on Smackdown on Friday.

    The 6-man tag was fine. Elias vs Ryker wasn't.

    Separating Reginald from the women's division was needed, him mixing it up with the 24/7 crowd should be fun.

    Looking forward to how they build to Sheamus-Priest.

    Lashley-Lee have good chemistry. Hopefully they get a full program down the road. Goldberg's return was expected. I'm pretty neutral on it.

    Nikki's championship win is a case of someone betting on themselves and getting Vince to see their POV. Good for her. Who knows how long they run with it, but it has a chance of being something kids can get into.

    As for Karrion Kross:

    Even beyond being average for a brand built on work rate, Kross winning the NXT title from a newly-crowned Keith Lee left a bitter taste in many fans' mouths. He was the bull in the china shop. He then loses whatever steam he had because of a shoulder injury. They should have sent him to RAW as soon as he was cleared. Instead, he went back to NXT and beat Finn Balor, who had done strong work as champ.

    Kross's current presentation is bad, and I'm not talking about taking away Scarlett. I have no clue who he's supposed to be. Is he a doomsday demon or a gladiator-warrior abandoned by his army?  That he had so many dark/trial matches was a red flag, IMO. Everyone else did 1-2 matches. He had 3-4, which makes me think they were trying to overly prep him. If you watch NXT, you've seen him get verbally geeked out by half the roster. 

    There's nothing substantial about him beyond Scarlett and a decent entrance theme. His size, a plus in NXT, doesn't stand out next to guys like Lashley and McIntyre. His voice isn't intimidating. His overall look is fine, but nothing special. He's the epitome of JAG, even if he had won the match against Jeff. They clearly are going to try with him for a bit. Maybe they have Scarlett 'rescue' him similar to what Zelina Vega did with Andrade in NXT. But I think the writing's on the wall with him.  Triple H covered Kross's flaws, but they were always going to be a liability on RAW or SD. There's no true spark with him.

    • Like 3
  20. 4 hours ago, Dog said:

    I feel like Reed and Shotzi are not suited for the "main" roster, and I always have. Should be interesting.

    If those two aren't RAW/SD ready, then no one in NXT is. Shotzi has a distinct look, devil may care persona, and built-in merchandise opportunities with her tank/helmet. She's Jeff Hardy with XX chromosomes. I think WWE's general fanbase will like her. Bronson has a Godzilla motif going and while he overlaps Otis in terms of size/body type, Bronson feels more polished. At worst, someone mentions his Samoan background to Vince and they put him with Roman/The Bloodline as a hanger-on.

    As far as who would do well with a callup:

    Toni Storm: She's doing nothing in NXT. She's coming along decently with her promos and she has an overall look VInce should like. See what she can do on SD.

    Kyle O'Reilly: I agree with @caley, KOR is showing more personality. His quirkiness will endear him to a lot of fans. The actual wrestling obviously isn't a problem. I think he stays in NXT for a while yet, but it feels like he'd at least slot into a Zayn/KO upper-midcard spot if called.

    LA Knight: Decent size, can talk, and likely can pull off whatever comedy stuff they give him. Would give them another midcard heel to work with.

    Grizzled Young Veterans: A wildcard, but I think they could it. Gibson is a good promo and can get heat to where fans will want to see them get beat.

    With Grimes, it comes down to how far they lean into the hillbilly thing. NXT has found the sweet spot for him.  But who knows how far Vince would want to take it.

    As for Kross? I find myself wavering between 'maybe he'll do OK' and him crashing/burning in a year. I thought Balor went above and beyond making him look good in their matches. He needs to better define his character. He wears gladiator trunks and street clothes resembling a blackjack dealer, but Scarlett still feels like a possessed siren. I get mixed signals from them. A lot hinges on getting his presentation just right. His match on Main Event didn't give me much hope. I can see Vince and Prichard falling for Scarlett and separating the two, not even in some weird attempt to break them up personally, but that she might simply do better managing another wrestler. They have to let her start talking, though. There will be no in between for Kross. Either he's a complete hit or a big miss.

    • Like 5
  21. 8 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

    If half fight for better deals and the other half just happily take whatever they're given, which half is going to be pushed and which half ends up in catering?  As long as these guys don't unionize, or at least work together in some fashion, Vince can just play on insecurities, keep them job-scared, and fuck everybody over.

    A fair point. We know unionizing isn't likely to happen soon. Their best bet is everyone to pay into an account that a wrestler can request a payment from when it's time for a new contract and they need a lawyer. Can they get the majority on board for that? Who knows.

×
×
  • Create New...