DylanWaco

I didn't see a single good kenta match last year.

Does anyone really think a non- Bryan is winning this?

He asked a question, do you believe it's true or not?

Punk never DMed or PMed FSW, but did he DP him?

This is closer than I would have guessed

Worst day in American history

I love Henry, but I really can't see a case for him over Rollins. It's not Mark's fault really but his resume is paper thin next to Seth's, and he doesn't even have the best "best match" of the two.

Voted for uso(s). Really love that team

This literally made me lol.

Cody and Devitt get bitchslapped. Bray bows down to the king. NJPW forced to believe in The Shield. Good start to round two.

I don't disagree with you that people shouldn't vote for things they don't know about, but if people should be seeking out Okada to watch in the interest of fairness, why weren't you watching Virus and Rush matches in the interest of fairness?

One thing I think we should all be more careful about is the assumption that our preferred type of wrestling and/or our favorite wrestlers would be loved by everyone, or even consensus favorites if people were just exposed to them. I find myself saying this sort of stuff sometimes when it pertains to Buddy Rose because I think he was a really versatile wrestler, and had a lot of attributes all sorts of different people look for in wrestlers, but that in and of itself doesn't mean people are going to love Buddy as much as me or even like him for that matter. I mention this here because I have noticed this a lot with New Japan fans over the last couple of years. Quite often when someone says they don't love NJPW as much as big NJPW fans do you get some variation of "well you are in the distinct minority," which is pretty obviously false because the majority of wrestling fans (at least in this country) probably have no fucking clue that NJPW even exists. If you point this out then the argument switches to "that's not what I meant, what I mean is that of the people exposed to NJPW you are in the distinct minority." The problem is we have no way of knowing if that is true, and on top of it I have actually had several anecdotal cases which suggests to me this may not be the case. I'm not going to name names, but in the last year or so I have had a bunch of friends (both "online friends" and "real friends) ask me about NJPW. I always try to give a nuanced answer when giving my thoughts because contrary to popular belief I do not hate New Japan, and also I don't want to kill anyone's interest to watch something that is completely fresh to them. I have had several friends that have gone on to watch NJPW matches or even shows. Some of these friends have really enjoyed the shows. Several of them have told me they were boring. Others told me they were pretty good, but had no clue what the hype was surrounding Okada or Tanahashi. I had one guy, who is a somewhat well known figure in wrestling media and whose taste hardly mirror mine, tell me that he thought the "NJPW fad" (his words not mine) was the most unexplainable trend in wrestling fandom in years, and then proceeded to trash most of the roster. Another somewhat well known figure in wrestling media actually called me up one time to bitch and laugh about Meltzer calling Tanahashi one of the best big match workers of all time - and this is a guy who has generally been WAY more positive on post-AJPW split/Inokism murder of NJPW Japanese wrestling than me. Anyway, the point is not that the negative people comprise a majority, but rather that I think it assumes an awful lot to believe that the average fan would fall in love with Okada, or NJPW, or whoever if they just saw a couple of their matches. Which reminds me that another aspect of this is that if I had only watched a couple of Okada's matches, especially the most pimped ones over the last few years, I would likely have a much lower opinion of him than I do. I think one of the reasons I have softened some on Okada (and even Tanahashi as well) over the last year or so is because I watch damn near everything and not just cherry picked matches that are heavily pimped by hardcore fans. This tempers my expectations some, but also allows me to see these guys in different environments. Also if you watch a lot of a guy who has habits that annoy you, a lot of the initial annoyance will calm itself over time, and in my case at least I start to see areas where I think they are good, or have potential, or whatever that are obscured when I am in the first stages of being pissed off about what I regard as dumb shit. In general I think Okada losing to Ambrose wouldn't be a big deal EVEN IF I thought Okada was great and had a great year, because it's not like people weren't raving about The Shield, and when you think about acts and figures in wrestling who are actually close to being universally loved Bryan, Cesaro and The Shield are pretty much the three acts I think of first. If Reigns beats Blue Panther in the next round (I think that is up next?) some lucha fans might not agree with, hell they may even hate it, but I don't think it's necessarily reflective of anti-lucha bias. If Panther lost to Rockstar Spud or SUWAMA? Well that's different.

One other thing to note for all the hand wringing about Okada not getting a fair shake, his vote total so far in this round is roughly the same as the combined vote total for Virus v. Rush.

I will expand upon this more later, but I THINK I saw every Okada taped match last year. Within that context I thought he was more consistent than guys like Tanahashi or Nakamura even in a way, but I thought that consistency represented a middle of the road standard rather than a "this guy is awesome" standard, and my favorite matches of his tended to hang on the performance of his opponents (v. Suzuki, v. Honma, in the 12/23 tag I thought Nakamura and Naito of all people stood out). I did think he was the best guy in all of the Tanahashi matches, though amazingly I actually preferred Tanahashi's best performance (the second Ishii) match to Okada's (probably the aforementioned tag). And on top of that those Tanahashi v. Okada matches leave me really empty (though I didn't really hate any of them, and liked the G1 draw). There is a point to all of this, though I suspect some will see me as a bad example of what I'm talking about...but basically what I'm saying is to see Okada is not necessarily to love him.

I would vote Cesaro over most everyone without a second thought, so this wasn't hard. But honestly Cody has not convinced me he deserves much of a second thought. I think both Usos are better than him for example.

I voted for Cena, mainly because Bray didn't do much in the ring I cared about last year, and while his best three matches this year have been outstanding, I don't know how much of that is really due to him. I think he's GOOD, but to knock off Cena I need to see evidence that you are great, and I am not convinced of that yet with Bray. My vote was a "prove yourself to me" vote.

Sports analogies don't work here. I don't enjoy Okada matches all that much for the most part. I do enjoy Ambrose matches for the most part. I can document why, but that has nothing to do with the CFL, NFL, punters, quarterbacks, et. It would be one thing if this was Ishii v. Ambrose, as I generally enjoy Ishii and thought he was the best worker in Japan last year (or at least the best one who made tape a good bit). But it's a guy who had some matches I didn't like, a few matches I thought were pretty good, and one tag match I thought was pretty great (12/23) v. a guy who was involved in a lot of tag matches I thought were great, and probably had just as many singles matches I enjoyed despite the fact that in some ways he was a "disappointment" as a singles worker last year.

I think Reigns had a better full match with Bryan, but the best parts of Reigns v. Punk were better than anything in Reigns v. Bryan

Those sort of discussions are the main reason why I don't think anyone should get in for work alone, or at least why I personally would never advocate and/or vote for anyone on those grounds. Not only is it subjective, but the qualities people look for in good workers are drastically different, and the degree of consensus on who is an all time great has never been lower in "smart" circles. To me work is something that can be a big part of your case, perhaps even the biggest part of your case, but it shouldn't be the only part of your case.

I have kind of talked myself into rating Virus higher through the course of this thread, though I still sort of see this as a coin flip. If you go March to March it does play to Virus advantage because that tosses out the best Rush singles match from 2013 and adds another great Virus singles performance from this year (the Titan match Matt posted above, though I think the title match with Guerrero Maya Jr. from last year is better). Having said that I do want to say some things about Rush. While Rush is not as a versatile as Virus, he's sort of the master of a style that I feel like he partially crafted. I talked earlier in this tournament about how I sort of see Terrible and Rush as having crafted their characters and personas along side each other and I definitely feel that is true, but I also feel like it's a slightly different take on lucha, or at least the matches that he see in modern CMLL. Rush obviously is super charismatic, but he's a guy who is hated as a technico, and plays that up which is different than anyone I can remember and not really comparable to anyone in modern wrestling (Cena is not at all the same thing). He has some dynamic highspots to be sure, but he's really a guy who makes it on his strengths as a cocky, douchebag, who backs things up with vicious brawling. You are just as likely to see a crazy headbutt, or big punch, or huge kick be the definitive highspot in a Rush match, as you are to see it be a dive, and while that is not unheard of in lucha, it definitely feels different for this era and makes Rush stand out. Another thing about Rush is that while he primarily works sprints, he is a rare case of a guy where I don't feel short changed watching him in that setting. With other wrestlers - even ones really good at working fast paced matches - I always feel like I am being cheated out of a potentially more epic match. Rush has such an energetic and frantic way of delivering and taking offense (as well as projecting), that to me it almost feels like less is more. That's not to say I don't want to see him get 35 minutes for a hair match with Casas, but I also don't feel like I'm getting less than the best in these furious trios performances. In some ways Virus v. Rush could be analogous to Ishii v. Okada or Tanahashi or even Nakamura, in the sense that Virus is a guy who has to and does make the best out of much more limited opportunities, while still basically being a utility player, while Rush and the big three from NJPW are higher up the cards and thus have more emphasis on their matches and feuds over the course of a year. There are other ways in which that analogy doesn't work, but it's something I felt like mentioning so fuck it there it is. Anyhow, I'm still not sure I'm going to vote here as it really feels wrong to me. But March to March I think I see Virus as a better candidate.

To me "overrated guys who hit hard" reads like you think the hitting hard is a bad thing. Like people only like them because STIFF! I think both guys bring more to the table. Not that I'll agree but how are they overrated? Short answer to this: I can see how you would read it that way and in fact I think their stiffness is fetishized, particularly in the case of Shibata. Hell his marquee match last year was basically your WAR slugfest staple, with people freaking out (myself included albeit to a lesser degree) about how stiff and violent everything looked. So while I don't see stiffness as a negative trait (quite to the contrary), I do think it's a factor in why Shibata is rated so highly and in my view he's rated much more highly than his output merits which is really the point. It's not that Shibata is bad. If anything I was disappointed by his run last year. I though Laughter 7 had potential as a team, and on paper he seemed like a guy who could have done a litany of interesting things and stood out a ton in modern New Japan....but he just didn't. Aside from the first Ishii match I don't think he had a singles match all year I thought was better than pretty good, and much of his work I really didn't care for at all. And a lot of it really came across as guys hitting each other hard for the sake of hitting each other hard (see v. Ishii the sequal, or even to a degree the Goto match which I didn't care for). Sekimoto is someone I like more than I think he is a good wrestler. I think he gets overrated in part because he's a big meathead looking dude who you expect to be a Nakanishi clone, but he works much harder, has a ton of athletic spots, and often has to carry the burden of working against a wide variety of dudes in terms of shapes, style, and sizes. Having said that Sekimoto usually only has one match a year that I think is a really good match and this year was no exception. For the most part I think his matches are just there, and in part because of his frame and the way he's booked he is one of the worst guys in modern Japan when it comes to blowing off body part work and/or drastically underselling it. I actually think both guys could be a lot better than they are, but obviously what they do works for them, and there is no reason for them to cater to my interests. Having said that I do think both guys are overrated.

You should have to vote for virus because you share a name with one if his most frequent trios partners

I would just note here that virus best singles matches during the voting period are clearly better than rush's or casas' for that matter. I will pimp rush some when I get home.

Fucking shit wifi one phone just killed my reply, but I will answer that later

Virus is the best title match worker in Lucha today, gets the most out of every young guy they pair him with, is probably the most consistent trios worker in Mexico, is great on the mat, brawling and has some of the best high spots in wrestling. He is also one of the few guys who seems to be universally loved among Lucha fans. I could live without ever seeing tanahashi wrestle again, but I understand for fans of NJPW main event style he is certainly not a "silly" top 5 pick. Same thing applies with virus and Lucha fans (not saying we would all have him top five mind you, just that it is completely reasonable).