[Over the Edge 1999 Arguments]

Oh man, that's a great question. Not to get all Quakenbush on wrestling as performance but I'll give my answer a shot.

 

Well, definitely some guys become better "story-tellers" in the WWF than they were in the indies or even WCW. The WWF was always less about flashy movies, and creativity, than in pacing, heavily protected spots and finishers, and matches that told a story. Even in the Hogan-era when the NWA had the stiffer matches, violence, and workers who were a bit more unshackled in what they could do, the WWF still managed to push a narrative in their matches that even the littlest kid in the back row could get.

 

Generally, with few exceptions, wrestlers are performing in front of crowds 4 or 5 times larger in WWF on a weekly basis so it becomes very much more about slowing things down and letting everyone catch up to the ride, rather than the rollercoaster in front of a smaller, but probably more rabid crowd.

 

Would ROH Seth Rollins and Daniel Bryan or, before the walk-out, Punk be just as over with WWE crowds if they were working ROH style, or even a more NJPW-pace. My hunch is not because I think the crowd would just get desensitized to it or they wouldn't understand the story because it would too fast or too flashy. It would be a spectacle when the WWE has tried to teach their fans to follow the plot.

 

To be fair, Bryan would probably be fine in any format.

 

I have often thought that the WWE should go that WCW route and just sign some super fast, flippy workers and have them go out for 20 minutes and see what happens. I mean, this is a wrestling audience that nearly shit their pants when John Cena got spiked by Punk with a pile-driver. How would they have reacted to a freed-from-limitation Mistico or a fresh from ROH Davey match? I think it would get over big initially and then just kind of die out. And the bigger issue is that then you follow with the main eventers doing 30 minutes, slower-psychology paced matches and you would get a jarring disconnect. I mean, as has been noted this week, Dolph Ziggler wrestles so fast that it's one of the reasons his act is dying. He's going so fast it's actually causing him to be a poor worker. And Dolph is still only about 80 percent at some of the upper-end indy guys.

 

When the WWE hit that 2000 or so era with Angle and Benoit basically ushering in the King's Road head-dropping era of main event matches, you had some absolutely incredible wrestling but it had the result of shortening a lot of guy's career, at best, killing them at worst, and resulting to the point where finishers were starting to get killed. 

 

So, when the slowdown happened around the Cena-era it definitely resulted in a bit of a letdown because guys weren't killing themselves as much, but they managed to retrain the audience to accept, like, a fireman's carry as a finisher, or Orton's chinlock as a viable spot.

 

Whether or not we think that Jericho's 1999 stuff holds up, and it was really rough early and he didn't have a lot to work with, there's no doubt that his best run was that heel run when he was with Shawn and became much more of a character-based wrestler. Say what you will about Kane but Kane's going to be remembered for a lot of great stories, and Jericho really only has the Shawn deal as a great story.

 

Actually, the whole idea that Kane isn't a good worker was always silly because basically everyone that has ever worked with him said he was, and  he's been perpetually over since 1997.

 

Okay, so I went all over the map here, but...I think that the WWF has always had an idea of what its main event style should be, and with the exception of the dark reign of Kurt Angle, it's been pretty consistent. As wildly different workers as they were, Hogan matches, Bret matches, Shawn matches, Austin matches, Hunter matches, and Cena matches always had a very particular style, pacing, and story within them. I don't think that really existed in other companies devoid of WWF influence. I mean, Flair had his routine and his psychology, of course, but I'd take Hogan/Savage WM V over the Clash match that day because Hogan/Savage was a fucking epic operatic tragedy.

 

So, I just think that we, as fans, have been conditioned that WWE main event epic style is the right kind of wrestling, especially for a company playing to the millions and not the thousands. Of course, your mileage on this may vary depending on what you thought about the Mania sage of Shawn/Flair, UT/Shawn, UT/Shawn II, Hunter/UT II, and Hunter/UTIII.

 

I loved them all and think they're, basically, everything that story-telling paced wrestling should be, though I admit that the slow-motion epic selling starts to border on parody after a while.

This is a worthwhile post and it's a shame it'll get buried here. 

[Wrestling What Ifs]

 

 

Foley walked out on his $3000 a month WCW contract in 94. I kind of wonder if he wouldn't have gotten a PPV or at least a Clash match against Hogan if he didn't. He had the association with Sullivan (they were tag team champions when he gave notice) and he would have fit the Faces of Fear/Dungeon of Doom perfectly.

 

I could be waaaaaaaay off-base here, but I think they could've worked well together.

 

Hogan always liked guys who he thought could make him look good.

[Wrestling What Ifs]

Foley walked out on his $3000 a month WCW contract in 94. I kind of wonder if he wouldn't have gotten a PPV or at least a Clash match against Hogan if he didn't. He had the association with Sullivan (they were tag team champions when he gave notice) and he would have fit the Faces of Fear/Dungeon of Doom perfectly.

[FEBRUARY WRESTLING DISCUSSION]

I still remember the first year where they did Sat Night live from the rally too so it was like 5 hours of live programming.

 

The crowd hated - HATED - a Benoit/Malenko match and to say they weren't fans of Harlem Heat (especially when they went over) would be an understatement.

 

That Malenko/Benoit match was a draw, so to their credit, it probably was not the best match to put in front of that crowd. 

[WWE Network pontificating]

I think you're really underestimating the "slightly better VQ" part.

 

VQ just isn't a huge deal for me with wrestling. A lot of times it detracts when you start seeing too much of the strings. Then again, it's been something like four years since I've even watched wrestling on a TV screen. 

[2014 WWE Hall Of Fame]

 

He IS an NWA world champ.

[WRESTLER OF THE DAY: JOHN TENTA]

Story goes that Vince wanted to bring him back as Quake to wrestle Austin in 98 (during that period where he was scrambling and failing to find guys to bring in to wrestle Austin like Doctor Death and Regal) but Quake had lost too much weight and just wouldn't look right in the role. I'm convinced there's a really good Golga match out there, btw, but probably not on TV. Most of what we have is made up of 2/3rds entrances and 1/3rd match in a ten minute window. WWF TV in 99 was such crap. We have it so good right now it's not even funny.

[FEBRUARY ANIMATED GIFS]

The spot that Goto/Shibata is doing is basically a doubleteam version of a usual Goto move, the Ushikoroshi.

I figured they were doing it for a reason and I'll definitely give them a B+ for effort. It still looks unnecessarily goofy.

[FEBRUARY ANIMATED GIFS]

They had me until the end. Just do the powerbomb neckbreaker villano buster there. Not some goofy knee thing.

 

 

So Nova had a website in 1998 or whenever, and one part of his website was him talking about all the moves he created. One of those was the Sledge-O-Matic, which was a powerbomb where his elbow is between the guy's legs. The one gif of it I can find is broken. He said it was safer than a normal power bomb since he could control the descent better.

 

You figure that would be a move where you could too. But yeah, no. They really screwed that up.

[WRESTLER OF THE DAY: JOHN TENTA]

He really still had a lot of the tank in 98 too. This is probably one of my favorite Jarrett matches.

 

 

This is exactly what it sounds like. Haku vs Quake in Japan. So many awesome elbow drops. So many:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99-w9mZLPMU

 

As is this, Ron Garvin vs Quake at MSG:

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xe40mg_ron-garvin-vs-earthquake_sport?search_algo=1

 

He was also really good at working the crowd. I think a great example of that is the Survivor Series 90 match (which, if I'm not mistaken also has him catching Bossman again). It's long and tangential so I won't post it but by that point he'd spent months feuding with Hogan and was so good at working his parody of the Hogan poses into his act to piss off the fans.

 

Skip the Control Center unless you want to listen to Bruti babble. Really simple, very effective squash of two guys. I love the double elbow drop, the sort of gingerly powerslam of one guy onto another (and Quake had the best powerslam in general, not here but this is fun too) and then the double earthquake splash. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf3RS4jlzYY

[WRESTLER OF THE DAY: JOHN TENTA]

Man, I've got work today.

 

Okay, okay.

 

John Tenta is one of my top 50 favorite wrestlers of all time. He's also probably one of my top 50 best wrestlers of all time. Now, granted, I am not ENTIRELY sure that people wrestle in Japan. They might? I've heard rumors. But, he's on my list. In a lot of ways, Tenta was a prototype for Mark Henry. He's so good at knowing when to give and when to take. His stuff looks so great. There's probably no finisher I like more in the history of wrestling than the Shark Attack. It's a crazy Hart Attack clothesline done by a whomping giant dude. Holy crap. He's got the best elbow drop in wrestling. No one comes close. He's a guy who epitomizes less is more, because less for John Tenta is way more than what just about anyone else could manage. 

 

He's frankly a guy who suffered more than anyone else I can think of from the juniors/action bias that was in the sheets/internet/etc for years and years. He's a guy whose work has only been looked at fairly in the last couple of years. I honestly believe he has the best match in two different summerslams, both in 1990 (and that was such a well put together match. Rewatch it) and in 1992. Yes, I think the Disasters/Beverly Brothers match is better than Davey vs Bret. 

 

This is one of my favorite crazy team matches ever:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDzFb-fbKJs

 

Like I said, this is better than you'd think, by far. Guys working their gimmick really well within the confines of tag team structure and the Disasters knowing exactly how vulnerable to look to make the match work, which frankly, given a size mismatch like this with the faces being both the monsters and the champions, is really tricky.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ue7a_beverly-brothers-vs-natural-disaste_sport?search_algo=1

 

There are 3-4 Bossman vs Earthquake matches from 90-91 and they're all quite good. I think this one has one of the really big feats of strength by quake:

 

There's a Disasters Squash vs I think Horowitz and Boone that I can't find online that is just king sized. Most of their squashes were great, especially when they were faces, but this was above and beyond.

 

Ah, here's another good one. Watch how well Tenta manages a super green Paul Wight: 

 

I'll admit that I'm half posting this for the Meng intro to the Dungeon of Doom BUT, there's a nice little 3 minute squash attached and it has two examples of the Shark Attack plus the mighty god king of all elbow drops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS4IIJBeAgo

[FEBRUARY PHOTO THREAD]

 

[2014 WWE Hall Of Fame]

Really sort of a low salience dead guy. I could see if Gorilla was still alive, sure, but right now, putting him in would make people look back to the stress and strain the travel put on guys back then. That's a best case scenario. The cost/benefit of it doesn't work out. 

 

BTW, I'm slowly going through 1994 WWF and I'm really close to his death right now and am glad that the Wrestling Challenges aren't online. I don't want to see Gorilla dealing with it at all. I just don't. 

[FEBRUARY ANIMATED GIFS]

 

 

[2014 WWE Hall Of Fame]

Hebner would absolutely be in by now if he didn't burn his bridge. I could see Charles Robinson going in someday. Or Mike Chioda.

[WWE Network pontificating]

I don't REALLY get what people are excited about save for slightly better VQ on some things, some of the new documentaries/programming, and obviously the monthly PPVs moving forward (and yes, those things in and of themselves are enough to get excited about). However, when it comes to the older stuff, 80% of this stuff is probably available streaming right now without having to really jump through any hoops or doing anything particular illicit. It was one thing when anything under the sun might have been on the network or even some no brainers for following the weekly storylines that are a hassle to find like Superstars and Challenge or WCW SN but that's really not the case. 

 

It's cool and vaguely convenient but it's hardly anything to drool over. 

[Over the Edge 1999 Arguments]

I'm curious about the Kane/Jericho 1999 debate. Kane had a great year, and, like everything with Jericho, nothing is really aging well.

 

 

Yes. Latch on to this. I swear I haven't gotten a ton of traction with it. The whole idea stemmed from whether or not high end indy guys are better off after some time in the WWE, namely because for really decades the talking point within our community was that wrestlers were neutered/ruined by the WWE, and lately, at least around here and a few other places, we feel like the WWE style where selling and pacing are more important is better than a lot of the excesses we see elsewhere.

 

It rolled back to Jericho's 99 since he received a lot of criticism within the WWF for his style and certainly I and everyone else I knew at the time defended him. I'm pretty sure the backstage word was that they put him with Kane so that they could have Kane show him how to work better, which at the time was probably the most laughable thought ever but looking back... 

 

Part of that is the question of whether the WWF/WWE style has changed heavily or whether or not we as viewers have changed which is one of my favorite things to examine, but I think it's a really interesting thing to take a look at in and of itself.

[FEBRUARY WRESTLING DISCUSSION]

It was really 97 when Hunter was more or less a member of the writing team, right? What's crazy about that to me was that he already had a ton of influence and he was only 28 or so. 

[Over the Edge 1999 Arguments]

I actually wanted to see the X-Pac/Kane vs D-Lo/Mark Henry match a while ago. TWICE. The first was back during D-Lo day and there just aren't a ton of D-Lo/Henry tag matches that went over ten minutes given the crash tv nature of 1998-9 WWF television. That went almost 15 minutes. I hadn't realized it was on this specific PPV and just shrugged when I couldn't find it. The second was when I was trying to figure out if Kane had a better 1999 than Chris Jericho (which would have been the most insane comment ever for someone to make on the internet in 1999 but right now I'm pretty sure it's true). That's when I realized what PPV it was on and yeah, it's floating around youtube if you look hard enough. I didn't get around to actually watching it though. 

 

Those are some pretty niche reasons to want to watch that PPV mind you.

[Over the Edge 1999 Arguments]

I think, ultimately, the best compromise on this would be to show the main event or at least the finish to the main event and just leave off the rest of the show. It's a WWF Heavyweight Tile change. There's some merit having that available, even if it's just the finish. The second best compromise would be to have all the matches available on an ad hoc basis.

[Best musician/band that is no one's favorite musician/band]

Boston?

[Olympics Omnibus thread]

Ok, someone help me figure this out. I want to watch the biathlon from earlier this morning. I go to nbcolympics.com. I can see results. I can see a hockey game from 2010. I can see what's currently being aired on the TV channel streaming. I want to watch the biathlon from earlier this morning. Has anyone figured out how to do this yet?

[FEBRUARY WRESTLING DISCUSSION]

Awkward claim to fame - I used to have hot steamy 15 year old cyber sessions with Emma over ICQ back in the day. As a result of this, she used to rig the raffle for me in her role as barrel girl at the local indy fed that used to operate near Melbourne Airport. The steamy willingness to roleplay as Bubba Ray Dudley won me a Bash n Brawler and a Ric Flair DVD over a magical month in late 2005.

 

Wondering whether its worth finding my old computer at my parents house and finding those chat transcripts between us.

 

....eh, at least I didn't name drop her real name like that Roman Reigns guy.

 

Look, buddy, lab partner is one thing.

[Banning question.]

Natural is the nicest guy on the board, I'd say that would be a near unamious vote.

 

Not that Brian doesn't have a few decent qualities.  Cheering for the sad Lions notwithstanding.

 

Oh yeah, Natural's the nicest guy. Sorry Brian and especially sorry to Natural. It's just so damn effortless with him though. Fowler has demons and conflicting religious upbringing and being from Michigan and what not that he has to soldier on through. He has a higher level of difficulty score.

[Banning question.]

Rob's still loving the wrestling.  Calling shows for various indies and stuff.

 

He's also still just a really nice guy.

 

Of course, with him gone, you become the de facto nicest guy on the board, Farwell.