zendragon
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Posts posted by zendragon
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1 hour ago, Shadow said:
Something I've been wondering for awhile, does Rey Mysterio have a claim to be the GOAT?
If you are talking in ring then you have argument, however if you are talking over all then no. guys like Flair and Savage where great in ring as well, did better character work, great promo's worked heel and face and were bigger draws.
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7 hours ago, Technico Support said:
I think we're talking about two different things here, maybe two sides of the same coin. Wrestling is just a weird thing, man. I've used this example before, but when Joe Anoa'i goes on the Tonight Show, he goes on it as Roman Reigns. Not as "Joe Anoa'i, who portrays Roman Reigns on WWE TV." When Hogan or Warrior did talk shows in the 80s, they did it in character. That shit was so cringe and corny, and I can imagine people who weren't into wrestling watching it and saying, "what this fuck is this bullshit?" That's what I mean by maintaining kayfabe long past its sell by date. You don't see Bryan Cranston on Kimmel staying in character as Walter White and cutting promos on Gus Fring.
This was actually a thing in the Gawker v. Hogan trail where he claimed he was on the Howard Stern show as Hulk Hogan not Terry Bollea, the closet thing I can think of is musical acts like Spinal Tap, Steel Panther, maybe some rappers like Snoop Dog who appear on shows and such in charecter.
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9 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:
I don't understand the logic of "I'm ashamed of my interest in [benign subject such as pro wrestling]".
The only time I've felt embarrassed to be a wrestling fan is when watching some of the excessively cringe, like The Dr. McMahon skit (although I can laugh at things like Snitky punts a baby its the problematic shit that makes me feel bad). Although It might not be the first thing I would want people to know about me seeing as some people view it as childish entertainment. Also I've gotten used to the ridiculous of a fictional world where as Ron Funches would say "disputes are settled via bodyslam"
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19 hours ago, The Natural said:
Dax with long hair.
Looks like Sam Kinison
A few thoughts on Eddie Kingston. Eddie Kingston reminds me of Paul Heyman's description of the Tommy Dreamer character "the man oppressed". He's the ultimate underdog character so he should lose most of his feuds. He the hero in the greek tragedy who continually reaches beyond his grasp, if he ever went on a long winning streak he'd lose all that. And I think if he ever does win the Big One, he should immediately lose to MJF
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@SturmCRFI totally agree with this. I don't hold Vince personally responsible for Eddie's death BUT I do hold him responsible for creating a toxic environment where you get juiced to get noticed by the boss, get on pain killers to deal with injuries, self medicate to deal with the grind of the road. Hopefully AEW continues to move away from that.
And Brian Cage can do all the Steroids he personally wants if AEW is willing to put Darby over him
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yhea but we are still masked up (at least in LA) and who knows for how long. I'd imagine its wait and see
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I would imagine AEW is waiting for California to fully open up (and stay open) before comitting to running shows out here, anyway here's this
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FEBRUARY 29, 2020, "Hangman" Adam Page, All Elite Wrestling’s blond-maned, hazel-eyed, self-styled “anxious millennial cowboy,” strutted into the ring in front of a packed house at Chicago’s Windtrust Arena with his chin held high and his heart jumping out of his chest. Black vest resting on his broad shoulders, the 6-foot, 228-pound Hangman yanked his bandana down to his neck, revealing the sort of enraged game face often worn by men trying to pass insecurity off as machismo. A fan in the crowd threw up a sign: “HANGMAN, Drink MY beer.”
For the uninitiated, AEW is an upstart professional wrestling company, and Hangman is one of its biggest stars. He was anchoring Revolution, one of AEW’s quarterly pay-per-view super shows, and set to share the spotlight with the three performers who’d hand-picked him for this moment: Kenny Omega, his co-AEW World Tag Team Champion, and their opponents, the Young Bucks (aka Matt and Nick Jackson). What none of the ring mates realized at the time was that their belief in Page had outpaced his own expectations—not just on TV but also in real life.
For fans who had followed Hangman’s story arc in recent AEW broadcasts and related webisodes, Page’s once upbeat-character had taken an emotional turn in recent weeks, swigging beers and lashing out at the friends with whom he now shared the ring. Like all of the scripted sport’s richest stories, it was a recital rooted in reality (except for the drinking).
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The Young Bucks, brothers and AEW executive vice presidents Matt and Nick Jackson.
ALL ELITE WRESTLING“How could it not be?” Page told Men’s Health during a recent phone call. “I challenge you or anybody reading to imagine that you were standing in the ring, and your partner is one of the greatest of all time in Kenny Omega. ... and (your opponents are), I would say, without question, the greatest tag team of all time in the Young Bucks.
“And then you were standing there.”
That match, nearly thirty minutes of dazzling, acrobatic physical expression, is held up by fans on Twitter and the popular r/SquaredCircle subreddit as one of the surest examples of wrestling’s singular storytelling capability. Page and Omega won the bout, but only after the four men used the match as a device to work out their simmering beefs: Page vs. the Bucks; Page vs. Omega; Page vs. himself. It was a tour de force for Page, who managed to channel his self-flagellation into offense that blurred the lines between fantasy and reality.
Nearly two years later, the bout is considered by many to be the finest in the company’s short history, helping to burnish Page’s credentials as a star who now has more than 265,000 followers on Twitter and 176,000 on Instagram, and whose “Anxious Millennial Cowboy” T-shirt is often seen on fans in the crowd. Some think he’s overdue for an AEW World Championship reign. But as anyone grappling with anxiety or an inferiority complex knows all too well, maintaining your mental health takes work. So instead of settling for the tidy ending to the story shortly after the Revolution event, Page has worked alongside AEW brass to add more chapters to create a more human story, sending his Hangman character on a journey that resulted in months of public struggle.
Hangman’s own career will reach another crescendo this weekend when he challenges Omega for the AEW World Championship at the Full Gear pay-per-view event in Minneapolis. For Page, it feels like a moment to share that much of the inspiration for the anxious part of his millennial cowboy came from deeper inside of him than anyone expected.
His toughest opponent has always been himself.
AEW, THE BRAINCHILD of billionaire Tony Khan, launched in early 2019 with the mission of providing an alternative to the old-guard WWE, combining new age, high-flying wrestling with rich storytelling. In Omega, the Bucks and fellow grappler Cody Rhodes (collectively known as the Elite), who on wrestling’s independent scene had generated an unprecedented buzz for non-WWE performers, Khan saw four potential cornerstones. The foursome of rising stars had earned a cult following, and not just because of their in-ring theatrics for promotions like New Japan Pro Wrestling (NJPW) and Ring of Honor (ROH).
In their popular YouTube series, Being the Elite, which now has 507,000 subscribers, the wrestlers documented life on the road in goofy, semi-scripted skits and over-the-top storylines that sometimes trickled into the promotions for which they worked. Page was introduced as a bit character at first, with his rising prominence in the series coinciding with his growing in-ring fame.
Khan had co-invested alongside his father Shahid, an immigrant from Pakistan turned an automotive manufacturing magnate (they also co-owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars and Fulham FC), and quickly christened Omega, the Bucks and Rhodes executive vice presidents. Today, the still fledgling, non-publicly traded group has built a promotion that seems to function as an implicit rebuke of WWE, the billion dollar global juggernaut run by billionaire CEO Vince McMahon. Instead of offering staid, family-friendly and cartoonish caricatures of masculinity, AEW strives to be spontaneous, edgy and, most importantly, authentic.
“A huge part of AEW,” Khan said, “is to make the characters, the wrestlers (feel like) real people.”
AEW founder and CEO Tony Khan.
ALL ELITE WRESTLINGWhile AEW has added more star power with ex-WWE Champions CM Punk and Bryan Danielson joining its roster in recent months, AEW executives also believe that the league’s more emotionally resonant and mental health focused stories will inspire the next generation of fans.
“For years wrestlers were only seen as larger than life, colorful superhero types. Nobody ever really explored the idea of a wrestler being like a normal person, struggling with everyday emotions,” said Matt Jackson, one of the company’s four executive vice presidents. “It’s important to have sensitive, vulnerable characters who show that human side because more people watching can relate to a person like that.”
That’s where Page fits in. In the 20 months since the Revolution tag match, his character has taken on more depth with each passing week of Dynamite, the two-hour AEW show that airs Wednesdays on TNT. The narrative arc is basic but easily relatable: Feeling that he didn’t measure up to Omega and the Bucks, the anxious cowboy turned increasingly reclusive and brooding, with the friendship exploding when Hangman cost the Bucks an opportunity for a tag championship rematch, cheating on behalf of their opponents.
Hangman with a beer during a Halloween 2021 AEW event.
ALL ELITE WRESTLINGIn retaliation, Omega and the Bucks theatrically dropped him from their on-camera friends group, rendering Hangman—as scripted at least—a lone wolf in a world where the right allies can make all the difference in a wrestler’s success. At first, he wallowed in self-hatred, finding solace in beer and whiskey while becoming more publicly unhinged. Then, with the help of some new friends, he regained his confidence and his in-ring mojo, leading to Saturday’s showdown with Omega.
PAGE (REAL NAME Stephen Woltz), 30, speaks with the slight inflection of his native Virgilina, Va., a town of 154, according to the 2010 U.S. census, located on the Virginia-North Carolina border. He grew up on a 20-acre farm helping his “pa” raise beef cattle in the winter and grow tobacco in the summer. When his classmates went to camp, he’d rise at 6 a.m. and start driving a tractor. In July (or “joo-lie” as Page pronounces it), he’d hunker down in the field and top tobacco himself, retiring for the day with his hands covered in waxy pulp.
“I come from a simple place. Hard work, but straightforward, farm life,” Page said. “There’s something wonderful about the truth in that. That you get up. You work from 6 to 6. You eat your supper. You go to bed. You do it again. And that’s how you make it.”
Then he repeats himself: “There’s something very powerful in the truth of that.”
In a 30-minute conversation with Men’s Health in early November, five days before his showdown with Omega, Page used the word “truth” 12 times. He spoke, much like he does on television, with an earnest lilt, his voice rising and falling for emphasis. He is a man committed to living authentically, including in his art.
“I wouldn’t even say [the story] has borrowed from my real life, as much as it is [real life],” Page said. “Each step of the way, I’d ask myself, ‘How do I feel about this right now?’ And I’d just give you the truth.”
Page didn’t really fit in in high school, he said, and instead found his people at local wrestling shows, a “strange world of 40 and 50 year-old fat old men beating each other up in front of 20 people in an armory.” He started backyard wrestling with friends on his trampoline, around which his parents built a wooden frame. Terry Lambert, a local independent wrestler who performed under the name Justin Flash, and who was dating Page’s cousin, taught him some fundamentals and took him on the road.
Hangman during a recent episode of Dynamite on TNT.
LANE WALBERTSoon Page was making shows on the North Carolina independent scene, continuing to hone his skills on weekends as he attended Virginia Tech -- he graduated in 2011 after two years—and then while working as a journalism and graphic design teacher at his local Halifax County High School. In May 2016, after Page joined the Bullet Club, the villainous NJPW mega-stable of which Omega and the Bucks were members, he finally quit teaching.
It was then, as Page’s career started to take off, that he started to feel the insecurities that would play out on television. He was grateful Omega and the Bucks had taken him under their wing, but something felt off.
“I was the guy who was the last to join the Bullet Club—on the house show that wasn’t even on TV,” Page said. “I was the guy who was getting beat in all these multi-man matches in New Japan. I was the guy who didn’t even have a winning record in (New Japan’s G1 Climax tournament).
“It feels like a fresh thing in wrestling to be that honest about how you feel in that situation. But what other truth could there be than to feel inferior in this group?”
When made aware of Page’s comments about feeling like he didn’t measure up, the Jacksons, his opponents at Revolution, were taken aback.
“This is actually the first I’ve heard of that,” Matt Jackson said. “When we met Hangman all those years ago, he was really just a new, unknown shy kid hiding under a baseball cap at ROH. Nick, Kenny and myself were already pretty well known, well-traveled, established wrestlers. I can see those original feelings he might’ve had when he initially met us, be something tough to shake off. It could be a little imposter’s syndrome, which I’d love to tell him goes away, but by experience, I don’t think it ever does. I hope he one day can look back from the beginning of our friendship and realize we were never competing, or sizing him up. We were welcoming him in to be one of us.”
“He’s never personally told Matt and I that,” Nick Jackson said. “I feel like he’s crazy to think that way because he’s one of the best in the world. I feel like the fans think the same way about him. He’s become a superstar.”
PAGE WAS POSITIONED as a potential leading man from the company’s onset, but it wasn’t until his character tasted defeat—six months before Revolution —that his saga first developed the kind of nuance that’s helped to distinguish AEW from WWE. On August 31, 2019, in the main event of the All Out PPV, Page was pinned by Chris Jericho in the first-ever AEW Championship match, failing to make good on some classic wrestling smack talk: He’d guaranteed that he would be the promotion’s inaugural champion. That loss set off a crisis of confidence in Hangman that Page says mirrored how he’s often felt in real life.
Adam Page reveals himself during the recent Halloween event.
ALL ELITE WRESTLINGHangman’s plot first took a darker turn on the Jan. 1, 2020 episode of Dynamite, about eight weeks before the Revolution tag match, when Omega and the Bucks wrestled PAC, Ray Fenix and Penta El Zero Miedo. When Page joined the commentary team for the match, as is common practice for wrestlers when friends or foes are engaged in combat, it was clear that the Hangman’s focus had shifted. He sipped on whiskey the whole match, and after the Elite won, the cowboy refused to celebrate with them in the ring.
“In real life, you wouldn’t acknowledge up front to your friends, face to face, that you feel that you don’t fill their shoes,” Page said. “You might run from the friendship. You might run from the responsibility. But acknowledging your own shortcomings is hard, and most people wouldn’t do it.”
With each passing week, as Hangman’s self-confidence slipped, he lashed out more and more. He was hardly seen on TV without a drink. On screen, that alcohol consumption became a symbol of his anxiety and quite literally brought him closer to fans, who handed him beers to chug following victories (before the coronavirus, at least). The worse he behaved, the louder fans chanted his catch phrase -- “Cowboy shit! Cowboy shit!”—Page’s less G-rated version of Cena’s “You can’t see me.”
If Page, with his bandana and his western-themed entrance music, was already a believable “cowboy,” the stress drinking was the realization of the “anxious millennial” element of his character. The anxious part’s real for him personally, too.
“Anyone in this age range understands, not just the surface-level anxiety, day-to-day, but larger anxieties about the way that our world works around us, the way that our world is maybe starting to fail us, and that we are not rising to the challenge,” said Page, whose legend among the faithful was bolstered by a Twitter investigation that found he’d made a dozen small donations to Bernie Sanders’ 2020 Presidential campaign (including one for $4.20) under his real name, per FEC records. “I think that our generation is very familiar with both those kinds of anxiety, certainly myself included.”
Adam Page will challenge for the AEW World Championship on November 13, 2021.
ALL ELITE WRESTLINGThe moment that Hangman was ultimately kicked out of his original brotherhood, the Elite, occurred in August 2020 after months of teases, both on Dynamite and on Being the Elite. Not long afterwards he and Omega lost the tag titles, and then Omega beat Page to earn an AEW World Championship opportunity. Omega dethroned then-champion Jon Moxley, and he and the Bucks, previously the company’s top good guys, turned heel.
As his former friends dominated the company—the Jacksons later won the tag titles—the cowboy continued to find refuge in the bottle. Then, in his darkest hour, he found inspiration in an unlikely source: the Dark Order, an evil-cult-turned-sentimental-favorite after the tragic passing of Jon Huber, who played its fictional lead Mr. Brodie Lee on screen. (Huber died from a non-COVID-19 lung issue on December 26, 2020 at the age 41.)
In a pointedly emotional segment, the Dark Order guys told Hangman they still believed in him, and that he should once again pursue the AEW Championship. Fans urged the cowboy on too—including one young supporter named Nolie whose video of encouragement blew up on Wrestling Twitter—and eventually he found his confidence, winning a seven-man ladder match Oct. 6 to earn the championship opportunity after returning from paternity leave. The recent comeback has meant even more for the man behind the character, who had never publicly disclosed the story arc was based in reality.
“I’ve come to terms with how I’ve felt, and I think only then do you start to feel differently about the dynamic,” Page said of his real-life feelings toward Omega and the Bucks. “There’s no amount of money you can pay for therapy like this, to hear thousands of people clamoring for you.”
In recent weeks, AEW has continued to incorporate sensitive subjects into broadcasts. Eddie Kingston, a foul-mouthed brawler from just outside New York City, noted he takes Zoloft for depression. And in early November, the day after it was announced Moxley had entered an inpatient alcohol treatment program, the famously straight-edge Punk called on the Independence, Mo., crowd to chant Moxley’s name, commending the former champion for seeking help.
Page thinks the values of the company have created an openness that helps performers too. “Ten, 20 years ago, you would never walk away from a top spot, for any reason,” he says about Moxley going into rehab. “You would let your life crumble around you before you walked away from that top spot. Knowing AEW is a different kind of place, a different environment, I think has helped people be more honest with what they need in their lives.”
ON A RECENT EPISODE of Dynamite, in an obvious prelude to this weekend’s mega match, Page swaggered to the ring for an interview with announcer Tony Schiavone, grinning as the crowd sang “Cowboy shit! Cowboy shit!” He wore brown cowboy boots, tight blue jeans and a white desert-themed button down peppered with cacti. He did not carry a drink.
At Schiavone’s prompting, Page touched on the events of the past two years: losing to Jericho; losing his friends; losing himself. Through it all, Page said, he learned something important. When you fall down, you need to dust yourself off and get back on the horse. That, he insisted, is the meaning of “cowboy shit.” He pivoted to the championship bout.
“I feel like you all still believe in me,” Page said, his eyes scanning the crowd. “And for the first time in my life, I do, too.”
His lips curled into a soft smile. This time, Page stopped short of guaranteeing victory, but he promised he would give fans his blood, sweat and tears. And something else: “I will give you COWBOY SHIT!”
He dropped the mic, pointed to the sky and made one last lap around the ring. “Cowboy shit! Cowboy shit!” the crowd chanted, and Stephen Woltz closed his eyes, took a deep breath and lived his truth.
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I still feel that we need a new Lucha Underground. One of these studio with a streaming service should build a set in a sound stage, find some writers who are fans and sign some of this talent.
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On 11/20/2021 at 1:51 PM, The Natural said:
To go with the above. NSFW:
To throw it back to the Dream Matches this is mine one and only... a Cinematic Match which starts off with Mox puliing up to Yano's crib in a some sort of Dr. Seuss mobile, Yano looking terrified as he peaks out the curtains, he escapes out the back door into a neighboring bakery ony for Mox to pop out of a cake
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8 hours ago, J.T. said:
Best wishes on a proper recovery to Mox and good on TK not to put Mox's personal business on blast without getting the nod from Mox himself.
Viva Van is a fairly solid worker. I've seen her try to carry Heather Monroe and CeCe Chanel across the finish line in CWFH and CWFM. The UWN territories are the new and strange proving ground for upcoming talent. Viva has also done good work in Defy and Arizona Wrestling Federation.
Viva is fundamentally sound, but she seems to struggle in matches where she is the better worker and that's not good when you work heel as much as she does. I am not sure if she's trying to work too light with green people or if she doesn't really trust the person she's wrestling, but the more experienced her opponent, the better.
I've seen her have bleh matches with rookies like Mylo Matters one week and then turn around and wrestle a complete badass violence party with Lacey Ryan / Zoey Stark the next.
She's fairly new , only wrestling about 2-3 years (and a good chunk of that time was in the middle of the pandemic) so she's probably a bit aways from being a ring general.
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On 10/28/2021 at 7:53 PM, Curt McGirt said:
What exactly is Phil Muchnick's hard-on for wrestling, anyway?
He's a professional curmudgeon who hates fun, see also rap music and sports betting
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I've always felt it should be treated as two different disciplines. It looks different because the rule set is different, just like wrestling and boxing.
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My only issue with Lambert is that its getting redundant, this is kinda an issue with AEW where you have the feuds that tread water with people doing the same thing every week.
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This was about the perfect wrestling show.
I kinda wish we never see Bryan doing headbutt spots again. I have no problem with Eddie losing because he's got the golden tounge and sure enough one backstage segment and he's got his heat back,
That table is All Elite
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11 hours ago, HumanChessgame said:
Even if Castle can't go in the ring anymore I wouldn't mind him as a manager. He's a really entertaining guy and could come up with a stable of his Boys.
Its one of those gimmick where I would worry that if you took it out of the indies and put it on the big stage people might see it as homophobic
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One wrestler I really wish would jump is Big E to 2005 TNA just for his debut...
Mike Tenay: OH WE KNOW WHO THAT IS!!!!
Don West: HE'S HERE TO SLAP MEAT IN THE IMPACT ZONE!!!
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AEW - DEC 2021
in ALL ELITE WRESTLING
Posted