Thunder Down Under
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Posts posted by Thunder Down Under
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8 minutes ago, Phantom Lord said:
The WWE is a never say never company. I mean Bruno came back. Bret came back. Warrior came back. Punk coming back was an inevitability.
Yeah I see this as Levesque’s first real “We will always do what’s best for business “ moment in charge. This is just a sign that still no bridge is ever burned in that company if a ton of money can be made from you.
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3 minutes ago, Raziel said:
You really think the pettiest mother fucker in wrestling history was gonna let getting fired and "feared for my life" slide?
Wonder if he did a post show victory lap in the ring?
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Damn RIP DEAN
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18 minutes ago, A_K said:
You're arguing with a bunch of "intellectuals" who think Kenny Omega spending 20 seconds to actively roll from one side of the ring onto a table outside and flail around there while a 5 ft 3 midget in a 10$ body suit does acrobatics is the apex of wrestling storytelling & are utterly baffled as to how that carny narrative-style yielded half its demo number in a year. Let it go.
I’m far from a fan of the Omega/Bucks style of wrestling, but it’s hard to point to that as being deleterious while fans being deprived of gratification when they assume they are going to get it after a 3 year long story isn’t. Both have just as negative an effect as the other. And when you consider how many fans have been shed over the years, it’s hard to point to WWE as a company that really does well in servicing their fans in general.
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2 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:
And ya know, Brock killing Cody right after Mania would've actually made a ton of sense if Cody won the belt. Brock can go for the belt again, so he found his inner monster. As it is, well, I think we can put the "maybe Cody was better off losing" argument to bed.
Yeah short of winning the title tonight, it was hard to see how Cody would’ve been better off. As it is, Cody likely would’ve been better off not even being on Raw. So not only did he fall short on the biggest stage after making a big deal about how he had to win, he got turned down for a rematch and then was stupid enough to pick a partner who turned before the bell even rang and got absolutely destroyed by said partner. What motivation do the fans have to see him as anything but a loser now?
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I think a lot of the online WWE/AEW discourse is just based on how objectively bad both companies are at putting on consistently good wrestling TV shows, which gives anybody that wants to criticise them a lot of ammo, with the diehards on both sides then feeling compelled to dig in for various reasons. Acknowledging that the WWE has struggled to put together an engaging, coherent Main Event angle from WM to WM for over 2 decades and botched one that basically fell into their laps does not mean you want the company to die. Acknowledging that AEW books to a very narrow segment of the wrestling community with no real attempts to grow it except hoping that the general population develops a taste for watching ***** matches also does not mean you want it to die. It is probably that lack of honesty within the power structures of those companies would explain why the 10 million people who used to watch wrestling on a Monday night has dwindled down to 2 million or so.
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40 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:
I'm still catching up but waned to comment on this thought. I would tend to age with you. Except Sami started being with The Bloodline in what, May? Within 9 months he went from comedy jobber who got beat in a literal mouse trap to The Jackass Guy to the most over babyface in foreverrrr having one of the most memorable matches in a decade. I believe in Heyman and his storytelling. No one right now looks like much of anything. But Heyman can make anyone credible given enough time. And if lightning strikes just right he can create mega stars over night. Who knows maybe Montez Ford all of suden gets a deep rich story with The Bloodline that gets him just as over as Sami was.
And unrelated to the comment above... imagine how silly all this bickering about 'is Jey going to be the one to beat him' / 'who is ready to beat him now' will look in 4 more years... when Roman is still the champion. I think people really have to start getting their minds around the possibility they have cemented that they wanted him to beat Bruno's record. I keep beating on this horse. But this is literally the most likely chance of this happening in 40 years. It's something people have to start treating as totally possible.
It’s hard to rely on capturing lightning in bottle for a second time. Given this company’s track record you described, it is just as likely Sami will be doing something insignificant next Mania due to the failure to capitalise on the chance they had this year.
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It’s hard to argue people have been made by this storyline when they only got the reactions they did when people thought they were going to be the ones to end it (Sami & Cody) and it’s questionable to think they will get the same outside of that story given they let the people down. It’s also hard to assume they are using this as a tool to elevate someone given they have passed up their 2 best opportunities in the last 2 months, and the conditions that led to that aren’t really replicable.
So assuming they are using this as a situation where it will be a “big star” that comes in to win it, the only 2 possible names that make any sort of sense which would fit are The Rock……and CM Punk. The Rock story is obvious, but if it’s not him, Punk is the only big enough name that’s either not on the roster or that hasn’t already been tarnished by losing to Reigns. His storyline connection to The Sheild debut/Heyman would also allow for a decent story to be told, without even worrying about the buzz a Punk/Reigns feud would create.
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1 minute ago, Raziel said:
I'm losing it on how Wrestling Twitter was falling over themselves to praise it... right until the finish.
Dusty's kid not winning it on shot 1 makes sense. Cody having no where to run when adversity hit makes sense. Yeah, not pulling the trigger at Mania can suck, but with that reaction, Cody's made. This won't hurt him.
It only makes sense if you don’t build it up in the way they did, but once they went with the build they did he just looks like no different to the other losers, especially with such a weak finish. That’s ignoring if they’ll have The Bloodline feud as hot when they eventually do pull the trigger.
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God this company is so stupid lmao
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Reigns really has been built up strong enough that dropping the title to Zayn in a fluke loss and quickly getting it back either on Raw or SD wouldn’t have hurt his eventual decisive loss, and would’ve helped Zayn the most given the circs. The elevation he’d have gotten even with a fluke is better than any possible outcome they have going forward. As it is now, there is no possible way to recapture the heat/moment that he had leading into EC.
It’s one thing for fans to care/notice title streaks etc, but for promotions to base their booking around it is the height of stupidity. If the number is all that counts, why bother with the decisive victory for him in the end after giving his opponent a visible victory/excuse for losing. If you want him to be super dominant in addition to the number of days, why bother with the visible victory/excuse for the loser? That sort of inconsistency leads to unsatisfying finishes like this. Even if you absolutely had to keep the title in Reigns at this show, a count out victory for Sami (say via Helluva Kicking Reigns out of the ring and Reigns not beating the 10 count back) would’ve popped the crowd way bigger and sent them home happier than what they did after the pinfall and kept everybody as strong going out as they came in.Taking an even wider view, a Reigns loss leading to a rematch this week would’ve likely finally helped make the most of the Fox deal/platform. So few people are presented on the weekly shows as big stars. While not Montreal, a quick rematch this week would still likely have a fair amount of heat to it. Sami being presented as champion in that environment on that platform would’ve done more for him than anything they can do now. Just another in the long line of missed opportunities by this company over the years.
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6 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:
Whew I don’t know what show you were watching. That finish was a heartbreak and an insult even. You could say it killed Sting after I guess...the night after when they did a rematch that was 1 of the worst Monday main events of all time. The crowd was dead silent the whole time. Sting never actually had Hogan beat like Mankind had The Rock beat before he was hit with the chair. That’s why that win was acceptable.
Again that argument would hold some weight if the evidence supported it, but what you said is demonstrably false. Fans still popped well for Sting for the majority of 98, like the Nitro he joined the Wolfpack, the Sting/Goldberg match in September and the TV ratings for 1998 and around 1/2 of 1999 were much stronger than 1997. That just wouldn’t have been the case if the result of Starrcade had such a negative effect on the wider fan base. It doesn’t seem like you can seperate creative that you personally did not enjoy vs the actual effect that creative had on the business.
https://www.wwe.com/videos/sting-joins-the-nwo-wolfpac-nitro-june-1-1998
All the people in the lower bowl area jumping up and down when he clotheslines don’t seem to be indicative of a character that had been killed because of a botched finish in the same building 5/6 months prior.
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6 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:
I don’t know why you’re hung up what the next draw would have been. They had the 3 good enough matches already that I already said. 4 if you count Raven. When I used him as an example of another match earlier it was because the dirt sheets were saying he was going to feud with Sting for a whole second. Those matches were out there by design to headline a secondary ppv or 2 until they came up with the next big plan.
They didn’t even need to have an immediate plan. They needed to finish the plan they had that they built up for 2 years. To halfway justify them not doing that because there was no giant 2 year plan up next is just dumb.
Also about the crap rest of Starrcade. Yeah it definitely was that but that was Hogan’s fault to. He wussed out, so then Nash wussed out, so then Raven wussed out. We were out 3 matches that were supposed to be on the biggest show in the company’s history. Dean Malenko tried to wuss out to if you remember and Eric Bischoff’s explanation there is the biggest joke...had to put his foot down he said. Yeah that really showed everybody not getting
4 times. Only 3. Anyway that was all Hogan’s fault because none of those other guys will admit it, but they were all in with WCW back then. They had their suspicions yeah but they were all in until Hogan did what he did. That’s when they said fuck this in their hearts even though they didn’t say with their mouths right yet.
If you are going to suggest the finish of the match killed the company, then it only makes sense to see if any other option would’ve avoided that same fate. But I guess if we are using dirt sheet rumours of the time, Hogan could’ve gotten his win back over Yoko at Super Brawl 8 as part of a reformed Hart Foundation instead of running back Hogan/Sting.And how on earth were those matches “out there by design”? Just because the dirt sheets/RSPW tried to wish it into existence it doesn’t make it “out there”. Sting/Raven had 0 on camera interaction to that point, and would make no sense in the context of the company at the time, unless the idea is to feed Raven to Sting. A rushed Hart/Sting feud wouldn’t have helped either party involved either. Sting either drops the title in his first program after winning, or Hart loses his first crack as a baby face (against another face in his new company), or you decide to do a screwy finish to protect both guys (which would be ironic if that would be your preference ironic given the topic).
The rest is just nonsensical hate for Hogan, which somehow assumes that Kevin Nash and Raven knew of the issues with the execution of the finish in advance, which is just laughable. Would the rest of the boys still have been “all in” if Nick Patrick had’ve done a proper fast count/Bret had a working mic when restarting?
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They also did Savage/Hart 4 months later at Slamboree which was nothing to write home about (likely due to the knee issues suffered at Havoc 97). So it’s doubtful it would’ve been a better match than Flair/Hart, or what they presented at Slamboree. So saving Hart/Flair as an attraction for a show that needed it makes more sense than putting it onto an already loaded show.
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On 1/21/2023 at 1:49 PM, Go2Sleep said:
I don't buy that at all. The same company ran Hogan/Piper twice in the same time frame the year before, and ran Hogan/Luger twice in one week earlier that year. They could've easily written a "Hogan uses his connections to pull some bullshit and get a quick rematch" angle. Sting vs. Hall should've gone on the lesser Souled Out ppv in between with like Bret vs. Savage while he was still in "dream match" mode (I agree that Bret vs. Flair should've happened at Starrcade).
Yeah there's a million other reasons WCW folded, but the finish of Starrcade 97 consolidates a few of the big ones into a singular extremely hate-able moment. Also, the rest of the show sucked too. Didn't even deliver quality undercard action like most WCW ppvs from the time. There was a 15-minute Luger/Bagwell match for god's sake. Just a total choke job when the company had the most people watching that they ever had.
Regardless of Hogan’s scheming, what is the draw for SuperBrawl if the Starrcade match is decisive in Sting’s factor? The first Hogan/Piper match was non title which led into the title match at SuperBrawl, with Savage’s interference leading to the rubber match at Havoc. It wasn’t just the modern concept of “let’s have multiple matches in a year for no particular reason”. The execution of the disputed finish was horrible no doubt, but the idea behind it is the one that makes the most business sense. Any rematch after a decisive victory for Sting logically means that he either needs to lose the rematch to set up a rubber match, or you’re sending Hogan home for a while to freshen up, which just isn’t realistic given the times and his contract.
Your last sentence is also totally wrong, which really hurts the wider argument. Starrcade 97 was their best PPV buyrate by far, but TV ratings were better in 98 than they were in 1997 (as well as breaking their attendance record multiple times after Starrcade), so for all of the hateable moments Starrcade 97 presented, it had no real negative effect on their business, which kinda contradicts any argument that it helped killed the company. It is as accurate as saying the Flair departure in 91 killed the company.
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On 1/19/2023 at 11:06 AM, LoneWolf&Subs said:
Raven is the guy I would’ve moved Sting onto. They were both such similar characters(remember when Raven made his debut, and stood on opposite sides of Sting with Hogan scared to death in the middle). I could imagine a scenario where raven would try to convince sting that they should team up, and destroy the nWo together once, and for all, with Raven helping Sting for weeks. Even having both as a tag team. But then he alludes in his actions to destroy his WCW buddies too, and that’s a step too far for the brooding Sting. It’d be like a Mega Powers situation, and ends at Starrcade in a Death Drop Vs. Evenflow battle. Sting is a comic book character, and WCW Raven should’ve been larger than life to feel like a threat.
Sting vs The Flock may have been a better use of Sting in 1998 than what they actually did, but I don’t see that playing out in the way you described. He could’ve transitioned to a feud with The Flock instead of the stupid Wolfpac angle (and The Flock angle not being so aimless from May until September).
In a weird way, the Starrcade match being a title match probably played a part of why Sting had such a poor 1998 compared to 1997. By being the “protector” of WCW, he needed to either be a dominant champion or not the champion at all. Hogan dropping the title to The Giant in the Oct/November due to Stings involvement (not necessarily direct interference, he could stop a nWo run in causing a distraction for Hogan leading to a Giant win) wouldn’t have hurt the build for Hogan/Sting at all. If anything, it would’ve put everybody in a better position going forward even if things play out relatively similar from there. The Nash/Giant match at Starrcade likely goes down on the show with Nash’s heart scare eased by being in a World title match on the show. The start of the nWo split can take place in much the same way, except with both Hogan & Nash’s failures against the Giant being the prompt instead of the weird Savage/Bischoff angle. Giants joining the nWo in May makes more sense if he is the guy to drop the title to one of the nWo factions.
In that hypothetical, Sting can have his Hogan issue still go thru to Super Brawl. Instead of the throwaway Hall match at Uncensored, Sting can take a month or two off to keep the character fresh (with the excuse being that a still WCW Giant is champion and with Hogan being defeated, he is no longer needed to protect WCW). He could then return and have his saviour of WCW vs the nWo character be fresh again either once Giants lose the belt or turns, or transition to Raven at that point (again as WCW’s protector against its next threat). A 3-6 month run of Sting treating The Flock basically like he did with the nWo would’ve done more to elevate The Flock members more than what they actually did, just by virtue of being involved with such a hot character.
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I hate to sound like Bischoff, but this is such a lazy take. While it was a somewhat unsatisfactory ending in hindsight (certainly not as a 10 year old watching live), a clean decisive Sting win would’ve meant no rematch at SuperBrawl, and a Hall/Sting main event (or any other combo except maybe bringing Sting/Savage forward 2 months) would’ve done worse numbers than the rematch actually did.
Even if you accept the questionable “He’s not tanned, Brother” reason, pivoting away and not even having the match WOULD have been way worse than what they actually did. Certainly by Uncensored 97 it was clear fans wanted Sting to be the one to take down Hogan and Starrcade always made the most sense for that from that point. Luger/Giant/Bret/Flair would’ve all been a let down in that spot, and would’ve had to likely to the job to keep Hogans big title loss for when Sting was eventually ready. Dragging out their first confrontation until 1998 likely would’ve cooled it off even more and we would most likely be pointing to that delay as being the reason for the death of the company.
But back to the wider point, their PPV buyrates and TV ratings show there was very little negative effect on business as a result of the finish of Starrcade 97 (or 98 for that matter). It’s hard to think it killed business when Goldberg hadn’t even started his rise at that point. The summer and fall of 99 is when the real drop offs for ratings and buy rates happened, with the end of Russo v1.0 driving the final nail in the coffins with fans. I’d still argue everything was still salvageable up until Havoc/Starrcade 99. Fans would’ve still gotten behind Goldberg as late as Havoc 99, but he still would’ve needed a strong heel/group of heels to work with afterwards. Funnily enough, Bischoff leading a group of heels is probably the best possible story they could’ve told at that point, but clearly not a realistic option considering Russo hadn’t failed at that point.
I actually don’t mind what Russo’s initial plan seemed to be (again except I’d have had Goldberg stay champ after Havoc 99 and still do a Sid rematch at Mayhem as a title match and just switch make the tourney to a No 1 contenders match instead of vacant title tourney), which really does seem like it was cruelled by injury to Goldberg right when it was getting started. I don’t know that it would’ve necessarily turned business around to the point they were challenging Vince, but it may have kept their ratings attractive enough as a TV property to make it worthwhile for a different buyer.
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1 hour ago, Red King said:
https://www.esquireme.com/sports/saudi-arabia-has-bought-wwe-report
Reminds me of when 96 percent of SNK was sold to Saudi Arabia's Public Investment fund.
Still seems very light on details and confirmation. The blatant SEO tags added also don’t lend much credibility to the report. Also extremely questionable that wrestling journos who were scooped on the initial Vince news (both departure and return), would now be plugged in enough to be able to break news on a company sale. Outside of a very select few (and even then somewhat unlikely), it’s highly unlikely any of the boys would have any working knowledge of the deal and possibly the last to know.
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3 hours ago, just drew said:
An interesting development in the business/merch side of AEW:
The action figure business appears to have gotten a bit stagnant. After the success of the first three waves, it sounds like figures were produced in numbers larger than they could reasonably sell, to the point that Ringside Collectibles has figures that haven’t hit shelves yet on sale. Rumors are that AEW might be looking for a new distributor.
I think that is a microcosm of the dangers of AEW not being able to adequately grow their fan base, and is something that really needs to be addressed. Even accepting it is a pretty hardcore fan base that is more likely to purchase collectibles like that, you can’t expect them to purchase every bit of merchandise and need new ones to cycle in to help those sales.
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I actually don’t think not having MJF on the show after winning the title wasn’t that big a deal. Hogan didn’t show up on the Nitro after BATB 96 and that angle turned out fine.
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5 hours ago, odessasteps said:
Unprompted, One of my friends asked me if this company is just a tax write-off for Shad Khan.
It really wouldn’t be surprising, because it’s certainly not being run in a way that one would think a profitable wrestling business should be.
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3 minutes ago, Greggulator said:
Plenty of adults have co-accounts with a parent. You can have it for any number of reasons. Maybe you have it in case of an emergency. Or like above someone is on the road a lot. Or a person and a parent just give each other money a lot because of shared purchases.
But the bottom line is: Who fucking cares? Punk brought that up to hurt someone who wasn't there to defend themselves. He did it just to be a complete and total asshole. He wanted to make Colt look like a sponge who doesn't deserve the respect of a locker room that's pissed at him for dicking over a guy they all like a lot.
Punk also dropping the line about Colt supposedly wanting to settle the lawsuit after the joint bank account was discovered -- and, also, no proof of that beyond what Punk's firing off at a press conference -- was meant to try and shame Colt and it included a dismissive tone about his mom. But if that's true at all, somebody could also just say "That's really fucking low to get my mom involved with this, let's end it now."
That's just the work of a total petty bully. It's someone who was gifted a level of power because of past success and public forum digging a hatchet into a guy who has nothing to do with any of this.
Funnily enough, having been previously employed specifically to assess applications for legal aid for 5+ years, Punks anger over the discovery of the joint bank account makes a lot of sense, especially when you acknowledge he was funding Cabana’s legal fees. I can’t think of a situation where it would be seen as appropriate to expect a friend to cover legal fees ahead of a family member, even moreso if the family member is providing financial support to them. If Punk was a Legal Aid commission, Cabana and his mother would likely need to provide a statutory declaration showing the reason why they required a joint bank account as well as submissions as to why their combined finances shouldn’t be considered when determining if Cabana was eligible for assistance.
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57 minutes ago, Log said:
And I really do get why maybe the Bucks or Omega wouldn't feel the need to listen to him. Like their style or not, they've all been very successful in pro wrestling doing what they're doing. And they've been able to do it all on their own terms. I think a lot of their appeal to the majority of their fans (and this probably goes for a lot of the AEW roster) is that they don't do things in an old-school way.
Expanding on that point, what people define as success can often be very different things, which I think is at the crux of the issue here. While it is without a doubt The Elite have had success doing their own thing, it is also without a doubt that on every objective measure (which match rating/qualities are not one of), Punk has been way more successful than them in the wrestling business.
That being said, even objective success doesn’t necessarily qualify one to be in a source of wisdom. For example, nobody has written a TV wrestling show in the modern era that has drawn higher ratings than Vince Russo, and I don’t think anybody is clamouring for him to be in a position of power again. But then again, anybody with the slightest appreciation of wrestling history shouldn’t find it controversial when someone calls out someone else for thinking they are above getting advice on pro wrestling from the likes of Terry Funk.
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5 minutes ago, Pedro said:
the fact that after all the shit that just went down actually happened and people are still leaking this to Dave is kind of shocking. In an instance like this the only ones who should know about the call should be Punk, Ace, Tony, and whoever legal member is on the call. The fact that this got out to Dave should alarm the fuck out of Tony as it is extremely unprofessional.
None of those involved would have any motivation to leak that particular piece of into to Dave (pre meeting especially, obviously different after the fact), so hard again not to guess the source/intention of that leak.
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Survivor Series XXXVII : WarGames - 11/25/2023
in WWE PROGRAMMING
Posted
Yeah altho the idea that he made sure things like his music/tron package were all cued up and ready to go on his own does make me laugh.