Dynamite - 8/3/2022

[Jiji]

I get what is said with this not being the optimal moment for Hayter to win. She could use more momentum and character development but when you have an ice cold champ does it really matter? Rosa hasn't really evolved her character along at all since winning the title (when fighting off the sandbagging accusations are central to your champ...) and her matches have been rough with the exception of the tag match. 

Other than Jade, nobody in the division has any real steam behind them. Even Baker feels stalled out. It sucks and Khan should be ashamed. I don't think the odds are remotely good of a switch but I want it just the same. You have the built in jealousy story to tell with Baker and obvious defenses against Storm and Rosa. I feel like Hayter and Storm are the best two featured women on the roster right now bell to bell in the last few months of TV (watching Deeb lately, I am not on that bandwagon. Her execution can be awkward and sloppy more than it should be for somebody called The Professor and the Martinez match was a real struggle with the two seemingly on different pages multiple times), so hopefully one of those two win it at All Out or Saturday, with Storm obviously the likelier of the two. They execute their moves with such gusto and force, it's awesome and neither really goes for overcomplicated stuff they can't pull off 99% of the time. Statlander is a third candidate but is stuck in the Cargill feud as second fiddle to Athena, so I don't see that happening any time soon.

I wish we had time traveling technology to bring in early 90s Esther Moreno. Been watching some of her work in Zenjo and she's fucking incredible. Mind-boggling. Lightning fast and so smooth in everything she does. Bounces like a maniac and is super sympathetic selling. What a great wrestler I had rarely seen prior to this. Shame she and Momoe Nakanishi never tagged or wrestled each other according to cagematch. 

[Log]

Watching this week, and the few prior, it's like Rosa has forgotten what to do between moves. That's where her issue is, in my opinion. It's like, she hits a move, but then doesn't know where to go. She seems out of position for almost everything.

Most of you know about the idea of the "yips", right? It's when a pro athlete just seemingly forgets how to do basic stuff. Their fundamentals just go away. It's that idea that they're thinking too much about something that used to come naturally. It seems like Rosa got the yips after she won the title. I just see her hit a dropkick, for example, and then there's this look of, "ok, where do I go now?"

That's just my read on it.

[Dog]

I like Hayter, but the next women's champion is Statlander.

Or I riot.

[Technico Support]

50 minutes ago, Jiji said:

I get what is said with this not being the optimal moment for Hayter to win. She could use more momentum and character development but when you have an ice cold champ does it really matter? Rosa hasn't really evolved her character along at all since winning the title (when fighting off the sandbagging accusations are central to your champ...) and her matches have been rough with the exception of the tag match. 

Other than Jade, nobody in the division has any real steam behind them. Even Baker feels stalled out. It sucks and Khan should be ashamed. I don't think the odds are remotely good of a switch but I want it just the same. You have the built in jealousy story to tell with Baker and obvious defenses against Storm and Rosa. I feel like Hayter and Storm are the best two featured women on the roster right now bell to bell in the last few months of TV (watching Deeb lately, I am not on that bandwagon. Her execution can be awkward and sloppy more than it should be for somebody called The Professor and the Martinez match was a real struggle with the two seemingly on different pages multiple times), so hopefully one of those two win it at All Out or Saturday, with Storm obviously the likelier of the two. They execute their moves with such gusto and force, it's awesome and neither really goes for overcomplicated stuff they can't pull off 99% of the time. Statlander is a third candidate but is stuck in the Cargill feud as second fiddle to Athena, so I don't see that happening any time soon.

I wish we had time traveling technology to bring in early 90s Esther Moreno. Been watching some of her work in Zenjo and she's fucking incredible. Mind-boggling. Lightning fast and so smooth in everything she does. Bounces like a maniac and is super sympathetic selling. What a great wrestler I had rarely seen prior to this. Shame she and Momoe Nakanishi never tagged or wrestled each other according to cagematch. 

I agree with all this and the funny thing is, you can also say all the same stuff in your first paragraph about Jade.  Zero has evolved about her character.  I don't know who this person is supposed to be outside of "looks like a million bucks and is always angry."  She wins squashes and slightly competitive matches, still needs a lot of work in-ring, and has no actual character to speak of.  I guess you could go meta with the gimmick as "muscular wrestler pushed well past what their abilities warrant" would be perfect for the JAS.  Or maybe have all the baddies and Stoke, fed up with her shit, turf her out so she can come back as a face.  But in the end, it feels like TK is just not good at figuring things out for the women.  Is Madison Rain helping creative for the women or just in-ring?  Because they definitely need someone working with that division.

[porksweats]

23 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I agree with all this and the funny thing is, you can also say all the same stuff in your first paragraph about Jade.  Zero has evolved about her character.  I don't know who this person is supposed to be outside of "looks like a million bucks and is always angry."  She wins squashes and slightly competitive matches, still needs a lot of work in-ring, and has no actual character to speak of.  I guess you could go meta with the gimmick as "muscular wrestler pushed well past what their abilities warrant" would be perfect for the JAS.  Or maybe have all the baddies and Stoke, fed up with her shit, turf her out so she can come back as a face.  But in the end, it feels like TK is just not good at figuring things out for the women.  Is Madison Rain helping creative for the women or just in-ring?  Because they definitely need someone working with that division.

Even if she isn't on Creative, we've got Pat Buck, Sonjay Dutt and QT in those positions so they might treat the division better as well

[(BP)]

I think QT can make some good creative changes. I guess you could call it a Factory reset.

Spoiler

 

[HarryArchieGus]

2 hours ago, Log said:

Watching this week, and the few prior, it's like Rosa has forgotten what to do between moves. That's where her issue is, in my opinion. It's like, she hits a move, but then doesn't know where to go. She seems out of position for almost everything.

Most of you know about the idea of the "yips", right? It's when a pro athlete just seemingly forgets how to do basic stuff. Their fundamentals just go away. It's that idea that they're thinking too much about something that used to come naturally. It seems like Rosa got the yips after she won the title. I just see her hit a dropkick, for example, and then there's this look of, "ok, where do I go now?"

That's just my read on it.

Well put, but there was plenty of evidence prior to the title win. For example, the TBS tournament match with Jade stands out (tho not all Rosa’s fault). I also noticed your mentioned points during early Dark matches. Again, not always the most seasoned opponents, but Rosa is not somebody who is going to lead a good match. 

The division will always be up and down for as long as they lack enough talent in the top positions. Or the vision of who really should be in those roles. They might have enough talent now but they don’t have them in the right positions. This upcoming all elite Women’s show could be a great start to getting things on track. That’s my hope anyway.

[Jiji]

Yeah, if the trademark for All Elite Women turns out to really be a show I think that would be fantastic. No, they don't have the best division in terms of raw talent, but it's hard to develop when:

A) You don't get the reps.

B) You're not given much of a platform to develop a character to mask or soften the blow of not having the best bell-to-bell skills.

C) You're not put in interesting positions where you can build drama into your matches and angles.

A dedicated hour of TV or streaming once a week will help with all three of those things, I would imagine. We're already past the point of oversaturation, but if it's just streaming on YouTube or whatever, I would hope they'd replace one of the Dark/Elevation shows. Maybe we'll even get to see joshi work some meaningful matches.

And honestly, it's impressive that some of the women have really improved at the rate they have despite the above. Statlander in particular has come a long way. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Jiji

[Zakk_Sabbath]

@HarryArchieGusand @Jiji mof a similar opinion to both of you. The biggest issue with the women's division for me personally is the wildly varying experience/quality levels. I think a dedicated hour would open up a lot of room to experiment with which woman makes the best/most passable partner for who, and then if you've got the right chemistry there, you can bring the fued over to the 'main' (unisex?) Dynamite/Rampage/Dark lineup.

 

If I were TK (or whoever he may delegate the booking of this hypothetical ladies' show to) I would think about putting together an internal system to track the development of each performer (really, this is probably something that could be applied to any developmental-type show with workers of any gender). Personal opinions are my own, but something like:

Tier 1: Toni/Hayter/Deeb/Shida/Riho/Yuka/Emi/Mercedes

Tier 2: Britt/Jade/Rosa/Stat/Athena/Nyla/Tay/Layla/Bunny/Penelope/Willow/Ruby

Tier 3: Anna/Julia/Kiera/Velvet/Abadon/Skye etc.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Zakk_Sabbath
tags

[HarryArchieGus]

33 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Yeah, if the trademark for All Elite Women turns out to really be a show I think that would be fantastic. No, they don't have the best division in terms of raw talent, but it's hard to develop when:

A) You don't get the reps.

B) You're not given much of a platform to develop a character to mask or soften the blow of not having the best bell-to-bell skills.

C) You're not put in interesting positions where you can build drama into your matches and angles.

A dedicated hour of TV or streaming once a week will help with all three of those things, I would imagine. We're already past the point of oversaturation, but if it's just streaming on YouTube or whatever, I would hope they'd replace one of the Dark/Elevation shows. Maybe we'll even get to see joshi work some meaningful matches.

100% agree on the reps. I do not understand the company's thinking in this regard with their many, many greenhornes. If the schedule is what it is, I really hope they develop a better system for booking talent for their local indies. Or why not just run non-AEW branded weekly Indy shows in tiny gymnasiums most local to the Pillmans, Jays, Jades, Brocks, etc. etc. Maybe they could even be branded AEW Dark. There's likely some good reasons not clear to me as to why not, but there's gotta be some good ideas and solutions for getting these youngsters needed reps. 

Your B and Cs are totally fair, but a bit more of a matter of opinion. I partially agree, but I also feel like there's been plenty of missed opportunities. I also will never understand the lack of promos on Dark (tho there does seem to be more as we go along), and the Women's Division in general has lacked in the promo rep department. That said, I've also seen some of the worst promos in the company from members of the division. Not all, there's been good ones too - from Britt and Jade in particular. But in general promo reps seem to be as overlooked as in ring reps. 

And if I'm granted a vote, I'm All In for doing away with Elevation in favour of an All Women's Youtube show.

Quote

And honestly, it's impressive that some of the women have really improved at the rate they have despite the above. Statlander in particular has come a long way. 

Well said.

Edited August 5, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[Zakk_Sabbath]

11 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

But in general promo reps seem to be as overlooked as in ring reps. 

I have to again agree. Serena is one of my top 5 in-ring wrestlers on this roster (think about the ground that covers) but she and Rosa had an interview segment a few months back that was so rough, I had that 'secondhand embarrassment' feeling like I was watching The Office or Curb.

[HarryArchieGus]

16 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I have to again agree. Serena is one of my top 5 in-ring wrestlers on this roster (think about the ground that covers) but she and Rosa had an interview segment a few months back that was so rough, I had that 'secondhand embarrassment' feeling like I was watching The Office or Curb.

I had that one in mind. On a sidenote, why on earth does Nyla Rose, somebody I mostly always enjoy hearing from, have a mouthpiece while ppl like Rosa and Deeb are left to fend for themselves? I'd happily take a Vicki-Deeb veteran ladies combo - make it happen TK! And also can you please get us a mouthpiece for the babyface side? And more for the heel side? I'm very thankful for Stokely Hathaway, but again Jade can talk! Nonetheless I dig the combo but please give the less verbally endowed some help already.

Edited August 5, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

10 hours ago, Jiji said:

 It sucks and Khan should be ashamed. I

[Just Dave]

3 hours ago, Gordlow said:

I love you.

[Shartnado]

This was quite the Bill Watts -special, wasn't it? With heels going over everywhere, besides the dumpster.

Match wise this was pretty damn great. Plenty of stories advanced. Even something for All Out was hinted at (Eddie-Sammy).

Liontamer by Jericho was just sick! Yuta is quite limber.

It's funny how much Christian Cage still has left of his abilities, but it's getting painful to watch Matt try to hold on to what's left. There's still something left, no doubt, but getting it out of him seems so arduous that it hurts me to watch. Mostly, because I imagine how it must feel. Kind of reverse of when Bowens kept jumping out of that dumpster. I was like "He makes it look so effortless!" I could probably still get out of that dumpster, too, but I can guarantee you that it would not seem effortless, at all!

That kid crying when Bucks got attacked by UE was... "Who likes Bucks THAT much?"

Women's tag match got pretty awesome by the end, there!

Mox brought the promo, once again!

[zendragon]

On 8/3/2022 at 7:10 PM, HumanChessgame said:

Was that dumpster match supposed to be a callback to the NAO/Kane and Mankind match featuring a dumpster spot?

 

Call back to NAO doing that to Foley and Terry Funk.

 

I really want Chuck and Trent to interfere in an Orange Cassidy match dressed as a pantomime horse 

 

I enjoy the vets being used to get over the rookies. if this was 99 WCW Christian v. Matt would have been for the World title.

 

One note if I had a pro wrestling promotion I would not be looking at Adam Cole (Bay Bay) as my lead heel. Not saying he isn't worthy of tv time and he certainly is over. but TK really seems to love this guy

Edited August 6, 2022 by zendragon

[The Natural]

18 hours ago, Dog said:

I like Hayter, but the next women's champion is Statlander.

Or I riot.

I can see Kris Statlander winning the AEW TBS Championship so Jade Cargill moves up to become AEW Women's World Champion then you can run Cargill vs. Statlander as the latter to only beat her. I'd go with Hayter or Statlander as next AEW Women's World Champion.

[Just Dave]

On 8/3/2022 at 11:51 PM, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

Seems like they could have waited until Cole and o’Reilly are medically cleared.  The beatdown wasn’t much of a beatdown but it’s hard to stage a good sneak attack when two of the three heels aren’t cleared to do anything physical.  The one Buck getting taken down by KOR’s chop block turn just sitting there waiting for Cole to throw the super kick was funny.

I like ThunderRosa but she looked like she was moving at half-speed tonight.  Alvarez speculated a couple of weeks ago that’s she’s injured and really can’t go, but I thought she looked much worse tonight than she did a month ago.

I’m not sure they can wait. The trios tourney final is at all out. They have to get this shit going.

[JLowe]

9 minutes ago, just drew said:

I’m not sure they can wait. The trios tourney final is at all out. They have to get this shit going.

This is true, but it was Tony K’s decision to run the trios now instead of waiting until the next PPV window.

[Dog]

9 hours ago, The Natural said:

I can see Kris Statlander winning the AEW TBS Championship so Jade Cargill moves up to become AEW Women's World Champion then you can run Cargill vs. Statlander as the latter to only beat her. I'd go with Hayter or Statlander as next AEW Women's World Champion.

According to promos, Statlander is going for the Women's, Athena is going for the TBS.

[HarryArchieGus]

5 hours ago, JLowe said:

This is true, but it was Tony K’s decision to run the trios now instead of waiting until the next PPV window.

Axing the Bucks-FTR for all the titles to move the Trios tournament ahead seems like one of the more questionable AEW booking decisions in their short history. I'm thrilled for Kenny's return, but I really couldn't care less about the trios title. Perhaps the audience at large is clamouring for Cole/O'Reilly/Fish v the Elite? Which I certainly wouldn't argue is a potentially fun match, but FTR-Bucks 3 for all the titles seems like a short window of opportunity. Curious where Dax's tweet is coming from? Is he working here or is his feelings hurt? If it's the latter perhaps we don't need a promo about it (this was in response to Dave battling tweeters claiming bad backstage politicking by the Bucks):

Edited August 6, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[Jiji]

Maybe he's just a big Alex Jones guy.

[HarryArchieGus]

4 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Maybe he's just a big Alex Jones guy.

I didn't even consider that, but it certainly seems worth considering. Tho, it doesn't feel particularly safe to think about the politics of anybody I enjoy watching in a wrestling ring. 

[porksweats]

1 hour ago, Dog said:

According to promos, Statlander is going for the Women's, Athena is going for the TBS.

That's the best path forward.

[The Natural]

I'd rather get #FTR vs. Young Bucks III for all the gold than Bucks in the Trios.