ROH Death Before Dishonor 2022 - 23 July 2022

[Tarheel Moneghetti]

1 hour ago, Craig H said:

Given Gresham’s comments earlier in the week, I’d say it’s about doing a job and doing that job to a white wrestler that has been perceived of in the past as having no character.

If I was going to put the title on an African-American wrestler, it certainly wouldn’t be Gresham.  Nothing against the dude. But he’s not a big name and his size is a definite issue.  I’d put the ROH belt on Hobbs.  Maybe Lee.  Heck, I’d probably book Swerve to go over before Gresham and I don’t particularly like Swerve.

As for character, he’s not wrong but I dunno what Gresham’s character is either?  Small guy with octopus mask doesn’t seem like a main-event character.

 

1 hour ago, hammerva said:

I can understand being mad to lose the title on the first AEW run PPV.  Well 2nd if you consider the WM weekend show an AEW run show.  But listening to people act like Claudio is just a WWE reject is just insanely stupid

Eh, I think Claudio’s a good choice for ROH champ and I’m a fan, but it’s quite likely he’s in the position he is in both AEW and ROH because he was in WWE.  Tony Khan seems to have  500 wrestlers under contract.  I don’t think Claudio would have been signed much less gotten a strong push right out of the gate if he hadn’t built up his rep working for Vince.  That said, he does have an ROH connection and he.’s probably one of the better WWE-castoffs signed. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Tarheel Moneghetti

[Jiji]

Here's the full Fightful report on Gresham:

Quote

It looks like Jonathan Gresham could be done with Ring of Honor and AEW only a few months after signing with the two companies.

Fightful Select has learned that former ROH World Champion Jonathan Gresham asked for his release Saturday ahead of the ROH Death Before Dishonor show that saw him lose the championship. We're told that there was a lack of communication between the company and Gresham leading up to the weekend, and Gresham was said to have felt disrespected by this. Among other things, we learned that the lack of time for the world title match was a tipping point as well.

We're told that Gresham finally procured a meeting with Tony Khan before the show, he was said to have communicated the frustration that led to him "cussing out" Khan. Several talent confirmed this to Fightful following the ROH Death Before Dishonor show.

Gresham had interest from Japan, IMPACT and others before re-signing with ROH/AEW. Gresham told Fightful late last year that he was going to stick things out and see where the ROH brand landed, as he felt a sense of loyalty and pride in continuing it.

Fightful has reached out to Khan and Gresham for responses, and we're told from Gresham's side of things that as of this moment, Gresham is "done with wrestling for the foreseeable future after this month." We were also told that Gresham came out without his regular entrance gear because he wanted to be himself and see everything clearly for what would possibly be his last match. We've not heard from Tony Khan or ROH's side of things officially.

It has not been confirmed that Gresham was granted his request for release.

In the past, several former AEW talent have spoken about the lack of communication being a point of frustration for them.

I basically passed out after Yuta/Garcia and will finish the show today. That match, however, was one of the finest I've seen all year. Garcia wrestles like a 45 year old vet with how wily, smart, and assured he is. His selling and psychology is top notch. Yuta has a tonne of crowd support and momentum right now and has improved a lot. He's great too.

After watching that Gresham match, it definitely felt off. Did not feel like a big deal, wasn't wrestled like a meaningful match. Looking at past champions and how they're pushed in AEW, how he and this program have been booked, I get it. Especially after his tweet yesterday. Sucks. 

[John E. Dynamite]

You gotta wonder about certain people in the TERMINUS orbit and all the heat that's been there as far back as I think the quarantine Atlanta tapings? The Big Swole situation was pretty fresh when their first card went down and I remember a few people on the card and/or on the broadcast being part of the anti-AEW voices when that happened. I just can't remember who, other than Suge D.

As has been theorized, if you're trying to shop Ring of Honor as a weekly TV show you get the belt on the well-know, super beloved draw and get it off the tiny guy with the mollusk mask. It isn't fair but that's the world we live in. And you have to wonder where Gresh's head is at as TERMINUS underachieved at every step. Not sure how out of the loop he's really been kept as he was on AEW TV plenty the last month. But I bet you they didn't tell him about Tully, and I bet you AEW "talent relations" needs to get it's shit together.

Edited July 24, 2022 by John E. Dynamite

[HarryArchieGus]

I like Jonathan Gresham, but it sounds like an inflated ego got the best of him. To the public at large, he's an unestablished grappler with little to no character. And clearly nowhere near a draw. I find it hard to believe he didn't know he was doing a job. I assume there was something in the layout of the match that he didn't like. I liked the match and thought they worked it really well. I'm not of the camp thinking it needed to go longer tho. I wondered watching it if maybe it should have been even shorter and more dominant for Claudio. Hoping cooler heads prevail, but also not at all opposed to Jonathan and his ridiculous Octopus mask being gone. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by HarryArchieGus

[John from Cincinnati]

Claudio over Gresham was the obvious move, but if Gresham is in a place where he's done with wrestling for "the foreseeable future" then that fucking sucks. Like the style he works, hope for better for him in the future. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Here's the thing, Gresham is great at what he does. He's the perfect fit to be the ace of the Pure Division. Unfortunately he seems to feel like is beneath him (apparently). I mean this with the highest of praise. He's Dean Malenko. Dean Malenko was awesome. He was a part of some of my favorite Nitro stuff. His series with Rey & Eddy. His Jericho feud with the great Ciclope moment. Even as a team with Benoit in the Horsemen. His Scotty 2 Hottty top rope DDT was brought up in this thread even as a comparison to Dax's second rope piledriver. But Dean Malenko wasn't a world title level guy.

There's this misconception in this generation (I'm guilty of it in my own career to be honest) that if you don't make it to world title status at a company, they don't value you. That's not true. The best shows have a variety of performers all playing their roles and making it a well rounded card for the night. Dean Malenko made a lot of money and is still super respected 20 years after his career ended. Gresham could be that guy 20 years from now if he put his all into making the Pure Division this generation's Cruiserweight Division. I mean I don't want this to sound disrespectful, but its the truth. The only reason he was ROH World Champion in the first place is because he booked it himself.

Now the ghosting and lack of communication is bullshit. There's no excuse for that. AEW needs to get better in that regard. They need to be the place that respects all of their performers. If Christopher Daniels can't keep up with the talent relations stuff himself, expand the department. This is something that can really derail their future so they need to get it under control ASAP.

Edited July 24, 2022 by NoFistsJustFlips

[DEAN]

Exactly!

 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

3 hours ago, The Natural said:

I noticed. How can you not be happy for someone underappreciated in Claudio Castagnoli finally getting a long overdue world title? I'd have been happy as fuck to do the honour (no pun intended) for Castagnoli.

This reads the same as when a fan proclaimed they would have done the Mexico tour CM Punk got paid $5,000 for but missed out on a much larger payday as a result.

I'm sure you'd be thrilled to put over one of your favorites, but would you feel the same if you were extremely upset at your job, as Gresham apparently was, and wanted to quit the company immediately after finishing your shift?

[HarryArchieGus]

Running a worked shoot (eg MJF) does lend itself to seeing how fairly easy it is to plant stories. Not suggesting the Gresham story is a 'work(!!!)', but they do need to find some ways to add steam. Not suggesting this is the best route, but you very easily have a story with the OGs feeling disrespected by the new ownership.  

[Tarheel Moneghetti]

37 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Now the ghosting and lack of communication is bullshit. There's no excuse for that. AEW needs to get better in that regard. They need to be the place that respects all of their performers. If Christopher Daniels can't keep up with the talent relations stuff himself, expand the department. This is something that can really derail their future so they need to get it under control ASAP.

Have other talent made this same accusation?  I mean ones that aren’t bitter?  I have no idea if he has a valid complaint or not, but I tend to take accusations with a grain of salt when the dude hurling them at me is yelling over his shoulder as he’s shown the door.  I know nothing about Gresham out of the ring - no idea who his wife is, though she’s probably in the business since she was mentioned in this thread - but he seems to have an inflated idea of his worth and a bit of a Napoleon’s complex.   Not to mention he seems kinda emotional and bitter.  I’m not taking anything he says at the moment at face value. 

[John from Cincinnati]

11 minutes ago, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

Have other talent made this same accusation?  I mean ones that aren’t bitter?   

People who want to take the company’s side will always paint people making that accusation as bitter, so nobody should be rushing to engage with this type of thinking as though it’s in good faith. 

Anyway, since you said you didn’t know, he’s married to Jordynne Grace.

[Octopus]

 

Relevant to the convo so I posted this here.

[grilledcheese]

57 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

The only reason he was ROH World Champion in the first place is because he booked it himself.

If this accurate, it makes his request for release over jobbing(if that's what this is) even funnier. Can someone fill me in on how he landed as the World Champ? Did it not have something to do with Bandido and some COVID shit? Or was all that a work to lead to dual titles and the eventual reconsolidation? I am aware of him winning the Pure Title tournament, and I totally believe that he is/was the best "wrestler" on the ROH roster, but that alone doesn't make you a compelling world champ.

[Jiji]

More from Fightful going into detail of AEW's communication set-up. Doesn't sound great.

Quote

Fightful Select has learned many additional details about the lead up to Jonathan Gresham requesting his AEW/ROH release.

We're told that Gresham met with Tony Khan and others at 4 PM EST before Death Before Dishonor, and was admittedly heated, and not happy with the direction of the booking and his character. It was agreed upon that the context of the conversation would remain private, and details originally didn't seem to emerge from anyone in the room, however by the time the conversation was over, much of the locker room and staff could physically hear how it went down. Building security was even said to have overheard the conversation.

Gresham had spoken with QT Marshall multiple times over the past week, albeit briefly, which we've heard went well. It was also noted that Sonjay Dutt was a point of contact. The frustration on Gresham's part seemed to be the direction of creative, which ultimately ends with Tony Khan, and not being able to be given answers as a result. Gresham was supposedly told that those decisions had to be ran through Tony, who he wasn't able to meet with until a few hours before the show.

The general preferred process is that talent speaks to one of the AEW coaches, who are then in contact with Tony Khan. If the conversations are about booking, they have to be relayed to Tony Khan. The coaches pass on dozens of ideas either from themselves or talent to Khan, who is then in charge of making those ideas a reality or deciding they don't fit. Those answers are then to be relayed back to the talent. For those asking about names involved in that, it's usually AEW coaches, as well as Christopher Daniels, QT Marshall, Pat Buck. We're told that Megha Parekh and Sonjay Dutt also help out and Khan is in communication with them at least ten times a day.

There are also plenty of situations in which Tony Khan has made efforts to talk directly to talent, although numerous have said that it's declined since the Daily's Place era due to the changing of the world and travel in general.

It was said that the AEW side of things believed that Gresham came into the meeting with his mind made up, and they'd not seen him heated like that before, chalking it up to Gresham being passionate about his beliefs in ROH, the brand, and himself. They felt as if there was a disconnect between the access to speak with people about their creative, and it becoming perceived "creative control." Gresham was said to have a vision for his creative direction and where things should go with him, and it was different from what Tony Khan and ROH had hoped for him. Specifically, we learned that Gresham wasn't in favor of turning heel, but that ROH believed there was a "bigger picture" for that. We're told that the finish had been at least hinted to Gresham, but no word on if he knew before Saturday.

In the past, several former AEW talent have spoken about the lack of communication within talent relations being a point of frustration for them. Joey Janela confirmed to Fightful that he hadn't reached out to AEW coaches prior to his exit. Marko Stunt had emailed AEW in an official capacity, but we haven't heard about follow up to coaches themselves on his part.

 

[Matt D]

Unless you’re a big draw like the Bunny.

[Octopus]

4 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Unless you’re a big draw like the Bunny.

Acknowledge her!

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

It does sound like there's a communication gap there. To be absolutely honest, I don't really see why Christopher Daniels is working as a wrestler on TV; he needs to be a full-time suit-wearing mofo - and I say this as somebody who went to my first indy show to see the guy.

I think it's pretty clear that Coach isn't really sentimental about the last few years of ROH, and let's face it - how many people are? Whereas Prince Nana can still get a pop despite being the very epitome of a midcard act. I remember Gresham from the Pure Title tournament but here's the truth, even if Claudio has spent the last 10 years down a well, wrestling fans would still give more of a shit about him than Jonathan Gresham because of his work in a more popular era of ROH as well as elsewhere.

[DEAN]

Well, Jonathan Gresham was the last vestige of a much smaller ROH.  I was amazed he made it out of Supercard of Honor with the belt since he is basically at the level of Rhett Titus in terms of a draw.  I didn't understand why Khan signed him other than to try to keep some kind of continuity, which he pretty much destroyed by getting all the belts but the World title on AEW folks.  I understand Khan wanting to put the belt on a bigger name.  I think Tony Khan doesn't have a real vision of what he wants but kind of plays it by ear.  He noticed that the first ROH did really well because he had put FTR on it and it swayed him to make ROH a version of AEW.  He kept a couple of things but you can see how he's booking it, that he is cutting out the last vestiges of the old ROH (2018 ROH) and replacing it with 2010 ROH.  But then Dalton Castle and the Boys get the 6 man titles from the Righteous, so I can only guess that Castle is dropping the 6 man titles to the GOA.  I can't imagine Gresham being in Khan's plans if he wanted ROH to be a AEW alternative.  

[Matt D]

Initial plan was to have Claudio as the surprise at the end of this PPV, so maybe Gresham would have survived a bit longer as champion if Danielson didn’t get hurt. If Briscoes/FTR II was going to main event anyway…

[Belgian_Waffle]

I had never heard of Dalton Castle before last night and enjoyed his act but did a double take when the announcers mentioned he's a former ROH World Champ. Was comedy less of an aspect of his character when he was champ or was he a credible champion in spite of (because of??) the comedy? 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

3 minutes ago, Belgian_Waffle said:

I had never heard of Dalton Castle before last night and enjoyed his act but did a double take when the announcers mentioned he's a former ROH World Champ. Was comedy less of an aspect of his character when he was champ or was he a credible champion in spite of (because of??) the comedy? 

I don't know a tremendous amount about him, but my understanding from folks around here was that he's been dealing with a chronic back injury the last couple of years

[DEAN]

14 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Initial plan was to have Claudio as the surprise at the end of this PPV, so maybe Gresham would have survived a bit longer as champion if Danielson didn’t get hurt. If Briscoes/FTR II was going to main event anyway…

Gresham HAD to know his time was limited.  It's a hard business.  And FTR vs the Briscoes is the reason anybody got either ROH PPVs so of course it was the main event.

[Matt D]

I was just thinking there wasn't as much harm not hotshotting the whole Gresham vs Moriarty story but drawing it out a little more and having it open last night's show then have Claudio make the save at the end of the show. That might have been the initial plan that would have gotten Gresham another month or two as Champ depending on when they'd want to blow it off (maybe Grand Slam). But they had to debut Claudio early so it just made sense to scoot up the title switch.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Matt D

[DEAN]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

I was just thinking there wasn't as much harm not hotshotting the whole Gresham vs Moriarty story but drawing it out a little more and having it open last night's show then have Claudio make the save at the end of the show. That might have been the initial plan that would have gotten Gresham another month or two as Champ depending on when they'd want to blow it off (maybe Grand Slam). But they had to debut Claudio early so it just made sense to scoot up the title switch.

I think Khan wanted his guys in as soon as possible and obviously Gresham wasn't a Khan guy.  I'm more amazed at the Brian Cage story.  TK is a weirdo with too much money.

[DEAN]

It sounds like Gresham wanted to continue being the focus of ROH and Khan didn't want to confront him with what he had in mind (not having Jonathan Gresham being the focus of ROH.)