July 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[Elsalvajeloco]

33 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

On one recent Charting the Territories, they were talking about how rare the Candy vs Ladd feud was, since Ladd was one of the rare black heels in a Southern promotion. Not to mention the rarity probably at the time of two black workers feuding. Unless later in the 80s and beyond when that became a common booking occurrence (the 2 black guys either teamed, fended or both one after the other).

I remember you bringing that up (the Candy vs. Ladd feud). 

I wonder if had JYD been the same phenomenon he was for Watts later on in WWF if that would have triggered something. Like I said before, I vaguely remember the end of Dog's run for Watts but I do remember him in WWF. And because Mid-South covered so much territory (and much of that area poor as hell), New Orleans may have as been on the moon for a lot of folks. I don't think it had as profound effect as it could have.

That said, I remember comedian JJ Williamson (who is from Mississippi as well but a bit older than me so it makes sense) bringing up Butch Reed on a comedy special he did about two decades ago. He was clearly referencing the Butch Reed from his run in Mid-South and not later on WWF/Doom Butch Reed. I admit that caught me off guard. Between JJ and Daniel Cormier, I haven't heard too many black people bring up watching Mid-South who would have been able to watch it.

[Technico Support]

57 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Technico Support
Triple post? Seriously!

[Technico Support]

51 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I think there could be an argument made for simply any representation outside of the one Black wrestler that would be on the card in some promotions. How many promotions treated Black wrestlers as a commodity and only booked one, maybe two in each territory at a time? Considering how closed off the business was, not to mention how racist a lot of people in power were, it's an interesting thought exercise to wonder if the lack of Black wrestlers during that time period was an artificial scarcity moreso than them being in other sports.

Since I grew up watching in the 80s, it’s really wild to see matches in AEW (who, granted, still has a ways to go) where like 4 out of 6 wrestlers and the ref are all African American.  Like we got Swerve & Lee vs Hobbs & Starks vs The Bucks which would have been unheard of back in the days when “non white” meant that’s your gimmick.

[Technico Support]

56 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Technico Support
Uuuuggghhh double post because Firefox Focus kinda suuuuucks

[PetrolCB]

8 hours ago, Marcel said:

I think one of the early WWF tapes on Coliseum Home Video had Gorilla Monsoon talking about how Killer Kowalski would use the claw sometimes on the stomach or knee.  Always thought that could add another layer of storytelling if someone were to start using it for a finisher today.

---

10:40 on the crossword.

Edited July 21, 2022 by PetrolCB

[Pedro]

Not sure if this is forbidden topic but I went through some old boxes and found a ton of old WWF magazines and programs from 1983-1987 and didn't know their worth. Would prefer to not go off of Ebay and didn't know if anyone knew of any good wrestling magazine sites?

[The Natural]

Our very own.

[Infinit]

5 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Since I grew up watching in the 80s, it’s really wild to see matches in AEW (who, granted, still has a ways to go) where like 4 out of 6 wrestlers and the ref are all African American.  Like we got Swerve & Lee vs Hobbs & Starks vs The Bucks which would have been unheard of back in the days when “non white” meant that’s your gimmick.

Last night we got Willow and Athena vs Jade and Keira, with an African American ref and Stoke and Jermaine Dupri at ringside.

And RE: the Claw Hold

I thought Barry Windham did an amazing job making it look killer during his 1988 heel run.

[zendragon]

On 7/18/2022 at 4:27 PM, BobbyWhioux said:

taking the most simple definition of good booking vs bad booking being "good booking builds audience by making more people want to watch the next show" vs "bad booking shrinks the audience by making fewer people watch the next show" and thus defining contenders for "worst booking decision" as those that cause the greatest reduction in audience...

since "the last 20 years" still barely includes 2003 I'm going to take this opportunity to ONCE AGAIN point out that Triple H beating Booker T emphatically at WM19, specifically after that kind of a build, permanently eroded some of my wrestling fandom.

And that's what this question is, for me, all about.  The decisions that made you not wanna watch [as much] anymore, for significant lengths of time.

Worst booking decision makes me thing of Death of WCW type stuff. I would say worst booking decision as far as money left on the table in not going with American Dragon as your top guy in 2014/2015. TNA/Impact never got to the point where I felt they could have left money on the table.

On 7/18/2022 at 3:43 PM, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

What's the best booking decision that any company has made that was followed up the most ineptly? 

Like, I'm thinking the widest gulf between "initial booking decision" and "fallout (or lack thereof) to build out from initial booking decision."

My answer tot his would be my runner up to the above. Punk winning the title and leaving the promotion 

[Overly Critical Man]

5 hours ago, zendragon said:

Worst booking decision makes me thing of Death of WCW type stuff. I would say worst booking decision as far as money left on the table in not going with American Dragon as your top guy in 2014/2015. 

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

[Kang]

I miss the 90's wrestling.

[Shartnado]

1 minute ago, Blue Dragon said:

I miss the 90's wrestling.

I certainly miss PARTS of it, that's for sure! Who wouldn't, though?

[BloodyChamp]

William Shatner does the Jim Cornette can’t count to 4 on his fingers gag in the Medicare Healthcare Coverage commercial that comes on Me-TV. Those are some funny commercials lol! Comedy relief out of nowhere in otherwise serious commercials.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

5 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

Maybe Bryan Danielson's failing body was booking at that point.

[mystman]

5 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

After he won at Wrestlemania, he was immediately put in a long, awful feud with Kane. Then,if he hadn't gotten hurt, he would've been destroyed by Brock at SummerSlam. I'm not inclined to let them off the hook because of circumstance.

[zendragon]

6 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

???

He won the title at Wrestlemania in 2014 and then almost immediately had to vacate the title due to injury. Missed the rest of the year, returned in 2015… won the IC title… and then just as quickly retired for the first time. I don’t see how money was left on the table in this instance.

Maybe my timeline is off but I think refusing to go with him as the top guy in the company not only left money on the table but turned off a number of fans by saying "no matter what you want we won't give it to you" there was a meme that I can find that showed hogan, then austin, then bryan saying its happening again. Imagine if Vince had never gotten on board with Austin's big push

[Dog]

5 hours ago, Shartnado said:

I certainly miss PARTS of it, that's for sure! Who wouldn't, though?

I miss Vader vs. Sting matches. And the cruiserweights.

That's probably it.

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

53 minutes ago, mystman said:

After he won at Wrestlemania, he was immediately put in a long, awful feud with Kane. Then,if he hadn't gotten hurt, he would've been destroyed by Brock at SummerSlam. I'm not inclined to let them off the hook because of circumstance.

That "long feud" is two months before Danielson goes down to injury, which is hardly long (I can't speak to the quality), and we're assuming he would've been destroyed by Brock because that's what happened to the guy that took his place (John Cena), so who really knows what would have happened.

[Casey]

54 minutes ago, mystman said:

After he won at Wrestlemania, he was immediately put in a long, awful feud with Kane. Then,if he hadn't gotten hurt, he would've been destroyed by Brock at SummerSlam. I'm not inclined to let them off the hook because of circumstance.

It was a month long feud. He was stripped of the title in June.

[Hamhock]

Since we’re talking about Bryan’s title road - before we take the now well-traveled exit down the “They were gonna book him with Sheamus at Wrestlemania” path, I always thought that should have become a multi-year storyline, where each year Vince would come out and threaten to rebook a different babyface’s match at Wrestlemania to be against Sheamus on the preshow, until after like three years that threat is messing with Sheamus’s own planned WM match and he snaps and destroys Vince.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Hamhock

[Ziggy]

1 hour ago, Stefanie the Human said:

That "long feud" is two months before Danielson goes down to injury, which is hardly long (I can't speak to the quality), and we're assuming he would've been destroyed by Brock because that's what happened to the guy that took his place (John Cena), so who really knows what would have happened.

Makes since to have him slay his Monster Ex Tag partner before going up against Brock at SummerSlam. I know most of us would have rather had him up against someone who he could have had a better work rate match but it made sense. Team Hell No was pretty over with me and it was the best use for Kane at that time. He was great teaming with guys like he and X-Pac, being the heavy for the Speedy guy. Both runs were probably his best babyface runs.

[username]

Yeah the Kane feud wasn't great but from a booking sense it wasn't a bad first challenger. We forget looking back that the ppv match with Kane was 4 weeks after Mania, Bryan took off the week after Mania (after Raw/SD) to get married/have a honeymoon, then his dad died and he missed some time for that. Add in that he was seemingly in rough shape physically to the degree that he did not wrestle once he came back until said ppv match and... I ain't gonna lie and say it was a good feud (anything involving Kane is always touch and go) but it was likely gonna be a rough stretch no matter what given everything in play.

[bobholly138]

So just learned a nearby indie,Battlezone Championship Wrestling,has booked Silas Young for their August 20th show. Reserved us 3 front row seats.

Also wow Silas is cheap to book. Which is good cause I doubt anyone that is at most BZ events has any clue who Silas is.

 

 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

In fairness though, Austin from winning KOTR 96 to finally getting the title at Mania XV is the better part of 2 years.

The PPV after winning KOTR he ends up facing Yokozuna on the pre-show. He was a virtual non-entity till Bret came back. They really got lucky a few times with Austin. Him not only getting paralyzed in a throwaway mid card match, but that turning into him stunning McMahon which got a huge pop in amongst him stunning a bunch of other non-competitors, then Bret leaves, and the exodus over that was next to nothing, and the spot opens up for him. 

Hulkamania also really only happens through other promoter's terrible handling of him. Vince Snr firing him for doing Rocky III, leading to him catching fire as a face in the AWA, Verne refusing to put the belt on him, and I *think* - correct me if I'm wrong here, but he was initially booked on the first Starrcade card and Crockett refused to match what he was getting in New York. How much truth is there in Hogan saying he would have stayed in Japan full time if he hadn't met Linda around then also?

 

[Mister TV]

6 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

In fairness though, Austin from winning KOTR 96 to finally getting the title at Mania XV is the better part of 2 years.

The PPV after winning KOTR he ends up facing Yokozuna on the pre-show. He was a virtual non-entity till Bret came back. They really got lucky a few times with Austin. Him not only getting paralyzed in a throwaway mid card match, but that turning into him stunning McMahon which got a huge pop in amongst him stunning a bunch of other non-competitors, then Bret leaves, and the exodus over that was next to nothing, and the spot opens up for him. 

Hulkamania also really only happens through other promoter's terrible handling of him. Vince Snr firing him for doing Rocky III, leading to him catching fire as a face in the AWA, Verne refusing to put the belt on him, and I *think* - correct me if I'm wrong here, but he was initially booked on the first Starrcade card and Crockett refused to match what he was getting in New York. How much truth is there in Hogan saying he would have stayed in Japan full time if he hadn't met Linda around then also?

 

Not really sure if Vince Sr. firing Hogan is bs or not, but Hogan was winding down his run in the WWF when he went off to film Rocky III and would have been gone sometime in the summer of 1981. Hogan's feud with Andre had wrapped up and he was putting over Tony Atlas, back then once a heel was done with their run against Backlund or in Hogan's case Andre they'd put over a babyface the next level down on the way out.

The take that Vern "refused" to put the AWA title on Hogan is a huge over simplification of what went down. Sure Verne was old school and initially did want the belt on a "non-wrestler" like Hogan, but the dude was mega over so Verne tried to milk the chase as long as possible. Next there was the issue with Hogan working New Japan and Verne being tied in with All-Japan, if Hogan was AWA Champ Verne would have wanted a cut of Hogan's Japan money which is why at times Hogan has claimed he didn't even want the AWA belt. There's also the whole Verne screwing over Hogan on t-shirt money.

If Vince Jr. never came calling Hogan would have been a Japan first guy like Brody, the money over there was great and he would have gotten nice payday's in the US as a special attraction.