Double or Nothing 2022 - Post Show Thread

[DEAN]

I'm an idiot.  I just realized that the MJF/Wardlow feud is an allegory of TK/MJF contract negotations- with Wardlow representing MJF and MJF representing  TK.  "You will sit home in obscurity for two years!"

[Matt D]

37 minutes ago, Octopus said:

@Matt D, totally agree with you on the crowd of the main. It was refreshing to hear momentary boos at actions without it being full on hate of the characters or angst boredom...

...I should prologue by saying this ramble isn’t an argument FOR Hangman. He shouldn’t be for everyone. No one worth artistic self respect should. This is more-so a dreamy tribute to a man I’ve enjoyed as champion and why he tickles my specific fancy.

I am the last person to say that my views should be everyone's views. I know I say them firmly and I say them with some level of objectivity but different people like different things. I've definitely stated that I think there's a place in the promotion for Page but that I didn't want him as world champion, and I don't necessarily want to watch his matches unless he's up against someone who can channel it into a direction I find interesting.

I am not going to liken him to Hansen 100% though I think your argument very much likens him to Hansen. There's too much of that New Japan influence there instead, again more 2019 AEW than 2022 AEW. But you make an argument for him that makes him into a sort of post-modern, constantly plowing forward Hansen that's somehow full of self-doubt. And I agree that the most interesting things here were the emotional beats. How did Punk get into Page's head? How did, in turn, Punk go too far until he was off balance as well? What mistakes were both of them making because of that? What did Page almost become? Why did he ultimately fail? I think selling a leg and working over a limb and really focusing offense in that direction with a story in mind is awesome pro wrestling. But having emotional beats like this that actually play into your ringwork takes that to a higher level and so few people do it without it being overwrought or ridiculous. Here it all felt pretty subtle, to the point where it didn't register with some of the people in the thread that watched it. It was still married to traditional pro wrestling norms and a sort of immersive believably. But to me, they still tried (and succeeded) to do something more.

Again, when it comes to me, remember that I'm not as high on Hansen as most people. I think he leaves narrative opportunities at the door by being the utmost of one thing that he can be. He ends up entirely dependent upon his opponents and what they're able to get out of him. He's the greatest tool imaginable in wrestling but if you don't have a vision in mind, you'll just get run over. Thankfully, his 90s work is full of him against guys with vision.

Here's a bit from a PWO thead where I talked about what I felt the difference between Tenryu and Hansen was:

Spoiler

On 6/23/2021 at 11:40 PM, Matt D said:

Bear with me here for a minute.

I was watching a random trios tonight (not random since I'm watching everything in order, but just on paper, it'd seem random) from January 1990: Tenryu/Footloose vs Jumbo/Kabuki/Mighty Inoue. What made that match interesting? Inoue. He was rarely, if ever, in the mix with these guys up until this point. Also, you get the sense from the Takagi feud and how he worked with Tiger Mask II in this period (remember that Misawa was out for most of 89 with an injury) and some of the stuff that @KinchStalker has translated for us that he was a little tired of the endless feud with Jumbo and the usual suspects, that he was very much up for battling new opponents.

The first real time they get in there, he lets Inoue come back on him and lets him hit a few things: a monkey flip, a headscissors take over, etc., good looking, interesting stuff that felt earned because it came after a little bit of a beating. At the end? A punch from the ground that just crushed Inoue and that let his team take back over. But he gave him that and the match was better for it. It let Inoue have a presence in the match with some of his stuff, with some of what he could do, with some of what he brought to the table.

If Hansen had been in there instead, Inoue would have been fighting to stay afloat with whatever punches and kicks and strikes he could have gotten. Maybe he would have been able to land a few blows and seem valiant; maybe he would have gotten a little bit of shine and he might have been able to express himself due to whatever color of toughness and defiance he had that made him unique. Maybe. And eventually, if Hansen did allow him anything or if Inoue was able to take anything with those blows, it'd end with an eye-rake and it would fit the same narrative moment of the match.

But, it would have been the exact same bit that Hansen would have gotten from any other opponent. You'd have barely gotten to see what Inoue could bring to the table except for in the most primal and subtle ways. It might have felt real and maybe even gripping, but if you'd seen it once, you'd seen it a hundred times and it was less, from a worked pro wrestling sense, then what Tenryu was able to evoke in him by giving him an honest moment to shine as the wrestler he was and the wrestler he could be before crushing him with a fist, instead of just making him fight for scraps and reducing him to just another piece of meat in the ever grinding churn of yet another poor bastard facing Hansen. 

Hansen might have higher highs (and I have a lot more to watch before I can say that) but if I have to watch a whole bunch of one wrestler or another, I'm going to be more interested to see a bunch of Tenryu.

 

Hansen could be both the rock you could sharpen yourself against and someone who would bring amazing and meaningful selling to the table, if you could unlock it. Page brings that aggression, those bombs, and potentially some really fascinating character work that pulls from things that wrestling doesn't often get to reach for, but again, it kind of feels up to his opponent to bring a lot of that out to the forefront without having it all mired in the downsides and the excesses of modern wrestling.

[Nineteen]

I thought last night was really good but don't know if it ever got to great. It's weird looking at the card for something like.... Jade and Anna which was fine, but telling them "you're here because people are going to watch something else later." That match, Kyle/Darby and his death wish, and the ATT 6 person probably could have just been Dynamite or Rampage.

I was super into Ruby winning but about half way through I realized it was a pair of trophies/belts and if Adam won then.... yeah.... and shout out to Cole and Britt for being a much better on screen couple than Tay and Sammy.

Hardys/Bucks was fantastic and hoping whatever is going on with MJF gets settled. I can understand IF his gripe was getting squashed but that's where that storyline was always going. The shot of Bryce and Wardlow looking down at him then realizing he got caught going for the ring was pretty great.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan did we take the long way but hopefully House of Black moves onto something more interesting now and hoping Evil Julia works out.... although this might just mean another House of Black/Blondes match... dammit....

Really surprised at how the ten man worked since it felt like it was all about Jericho and Kingston but they rarely interacted until the end. Surprise Danielson ate the fall too. Wouldn't mind a continuation of Danielson and Kingston though with Mox caught in the middle of them. Wasn't so much a payoff to the whole story but definitely down if that's where it's going.

Was surprised Jurassic Express retained but maybe I can my wish of Kings of the Black throne de... throning them. Swerve's moonsault off Lee to the floor was tremendous. Lee and Swerve are fantastic together but feels like both of those guys really should be shining as singles.

I wasn't really sure how to feel about Punk winning. I was pulling for him (my friend group I watched with divided), maybe we'll see more of what what Hangman meant and maybe see a slow burn on Punk turning. I thought the story was gonna be Max beating Punk for it but who knows  what's going down with that.

Solid show, definitely overlong and if TK's thing is 'data' then I wonder where the line is between 'profitible' and 'enjoyable,' not that I didn't enjoy the show but felt not great being with a group of exhausted friends by the time the match we were all psyched for happend.

And to quote a friend, "on a scale of 10 to the '86 Mets, how much blow is TK on tonight?"

[dokdoyle]

I watched the show this morning (Atlantic Time Zone issues, 1 hour plus Eastern)

Loved the show. it was long but flew by. I found things to like about every match. I don't know if it will go long again, as Tony K has said it was to try to counter Game 7 of the NBA Eastern Conference finals. 

When JAS and The Proud and Powerful Blackpool Combat Club mostly all came out in white, you know shit was on. (As a former ring announcer, that they let Justin Roberts be more then a weight and location robot, is something I love).

[DEAN]

Caprice Coleman was a great move.  I had totally forgotten about Caprice being an OMEGA original.  He should have stuck around for the whole show.

[Curt McGirt]

Said on the Discord that Danielson told Roberts if he didn't say the "shit hits the fan" line then he threatened to get hold of his tie again. 

Will this be the last Hardys match? It would work fine as one. Plus Tony liking to cycle guys in and out, which brings to mind, is anyone going away for awhile after this, besides MJF which whether they decide to do business or not will almost surely happen? I can see Hangman going back into the shadows to brood. It honestly would have been nice for a tag title change and JE to take a hike for awhile.  

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, Curt McGirt said:

Will this be the last Hardys match?

I don’t ever need to see another Hardys match but I kind of want to see them vs Andrade/Rush.

[Kang]

The Hardys are taking the belts off Jungle and Dinoman. Can't wait.

 

[John from Cincinnati]

28 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I dunno. Hangman just acted bizarre the whole time with the overacting and this goes back to last week's promo.

This sentence could have been written at any point over the last two years.

[The Natural]

 

[StuntmanCrowley]

I really can’t comprehend all of the Hangman hate in here

[Curt McGirt]

ROOOSH is gonna be a hit. I can just see the promos with him angrily venting in high-speed Spanish followed by a joyous Andrade blurting "Choo don have to know what he say! AHHAHAHA"

[DEAN]

Jeff Hardy was fucking awesome in that match.

[Curt McGirt]

Yeah. I don't care if he got injured or he was high (doubtful) or whatever, after he took a minute on the mat he got the fuck up and pulled his weight. Doing those big moves felt like when Cutty in The Wire said to his students that a man standing at the end of a round in a boxing match is a man -- that's a rule. 

[JLowe]

I’m thinking today that most of my quibbles are with the booking. It’s like they’re telling great stories for the most part, but the ending sometimes don’t make sense or fall flat.

Its clear that Cole and Baker got the Owens as their consolation prizes for putting over Page/Rosa. Whether those were the best choices, we shall see, most people here seem very dissatisfied. I knew Britt was going to win by her demeanor going in. I think HarryArchieGus pointed out how awkward it was having two heels standing there being nice for 15 minutes during the ceremony. In the end, no one was really elevated by that tournament.

The TNT title needs a hard reset. Total mess of an angle, seemingly designed to be the showcase for an MMA star.

They do a perfect set up for Stat-Jade but instead bring in yet another new person. Did they really need that?

For weeks, they tease Christian turning on JE, and instead they retain in a match where the other teams are more interesting and talented.

I don’t see what Jake Hager adds to a match. He was absent from that fight, but damned if 2.0 didn’t go all out to make that match special.

I feel like I’m complaining too much. I enjoyed it all for the most part, but today all I’m thinking about are the things above.

[DEAN]

When did Jade Cargill become this good?  She sold enough to make Anna Jay look like she might pull an upset.  That was the good Rampage match that follows an underachieving Dynamite women's match.  They were lost at points but that was a thousand times better than it had any right to be.  Athena is fucking awesome.  This is a six woman match I want to see- just trade Toni Storm or Jamie Hayter for Anna Jay.

[Curt McGirt]

After Cain Velasquez it isn't important for us to know that an MMA fighter can do an armdrag or a rana ever again. 

[Kang]

[Matt D]

6 minutes ago, DEAN said:

When did Jade Cargill become this good?  She sold enough to make Anna Jay look like she might pull an upset.  That was the good Rampage match that follows an underachieving Dynamite women's match.  They were lost at points but that was a thousand times better than it had any right to be.  Athena is fucking awesome.  This is a six woman match I want to see- just trade Toni Storm or Jamie Hayter for Anna Jay.

She spends all day working with Regal, Dustin, and Danielson.

[AxB]

Jeff Hardy’s boot broke.

The show was a good length. Great value for money. Not sure I would rewatch it all in one sitting, but there was nothing on there that overstayed it’s welcome. Odd that Rancid would join Motörhead on team cursed music, but OK.

[Burgundy LaRue]

-Wardlow powerbombing MJF into a stretcher job was great. The Goldberg presentation for Wardlow is too obvious for my tastes, but I will say it works.

-Watching Jeff Hardy "wrestle" is sad. I thought he was having a medical emergency a couple of times. Matt's tailbone is essentially fused to his spine and he was moving significantly better than his brother. Even with the boot/gear issue, he seemed way off.

-Jade and Anna are likely going to be good in a year or so. They didn't make any noticeable mistakes here. Still, it felt longer than seven minutes, even with the run-ins. Stokely Hathaway as a possible manager for Jade is a good move. As is signing Athena, provided they plans for her beyond a month on Dynamite/Rampage before becoming a YouTube fixture. Introducing her with little fanfare isn't giving me hope. They crammed too much here with Stokely, Athena and the Statlander run-in.

-House of Black vs Death Triangle was really good, but having six guys nearly kill themselves only for the cheerleader to be the deciding factor felt off for me. Took them long enough to turn Julia Hart, though! And she's miles better at the mist gimmick than Malakai.

-Joe vs Cole was OK? There wasn't anything technically wrong with it, but it didn't exactly hit its mark, either. Cole is a prime example of how much presentation matters. He was The Guy in NXT. Now, he feels like Random Cruiserweight Wrestling Guy.

-As soon as I saw the Owen brackets, I saw Cole and Britt winning. Britt doesn't click for me anymore. The match with Ruby Soho was plodding per Britt's usual MO. Any chance Ruby had to be someone big in AEW feels gone.  The ceremony with Martha was nice but too long. The belts are really nice.

-The 6 person mixed tag was a six pack of flat soda. Paige Van Zant isn't close to ready and Tay Conti isn't who you call to carry her.

-KOR vs Darby Allin was good, but wasn't needed for this show. Darby will be in a wheelchair in a few years with how he continually hates his neck. Jeff Hardy shouldn't be a template on how to build your career.

-Thunder Rosa vs Serena Deeb was very good. It's too bad Rosa is being treated as an afterthought despite being champion. Loved her gear.

-Jericho Appreciation Society gives off bad vibes, but Anarchy in the Arena with Moxley and Co. was fun. I liked this a lot more than the Stadium Stampede matches. Eddie Kingston with the gas can was a great visual, wish commentary didn't try to no-sell it as not being such. Kingston willing to sacrifice Danielson to get to Jericho was spot on.

-Triple threat tag match was fast-paced and energetic. Ricky Starks is a star if they give him the time and space. Keith Lee as the trolling uncle at the cookout is hilarious. I understand why crowning new champs (particularly Starks/Hobbs) felt like the better play, but have to figure they're going to do more to break Jungle Boy away from Luchasaurus before they drop the belts.

-Main event was fine. Admittedly, I'm not a CM Punk fan. Anything he does isn't going to register high with me. I like the breakdown of Page's character I've read in the thread. That deep down, he's not a jerk. But he knows Punk is and tried to stop Punk before that train started again. Felt like it took too long for Page to do the right thing and made him look goofy.

I get that AEW only has four PPVs right now and they have to do more on those shows. But it's a lot to get through. And I still myself in the 'I guess' category with them. May just have to concede that overall, it's not designed for someone like me.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Burgundy LaRue

[DEAN]

Oh may GOD!  Death Triangle vs House of Black was more wrestling than five matches should have.  I can't believe this crowd recovered from this match.  Buddy Matthews DID look like Crazzy Steve if Crazzy Steve was a BILLION times better.  Matthews taking that Poison Rana was INSANE.  Brodie King is so awesome, made to look even more awesome by Rey Fenix taking his K-Driller like a fucking PSYCHO.  Oh man, this match is fucking great.  EVIL JULIA!  Whose youngster was it that accompanied Death Triangle?  That was a great episode of Rampage.

[Web Conn]

Couple thoughts on the show:

It was the a long show but it was also the most fun I’ve ever had live at a wrestling show. 

Seeing Rancid was rad as fuck

The crowd was hot but there was a lull period. I think the mixed trios and Darby-O’Rielly could have been saved for The Forum.

If that was MJF’s last night what a night. That match was perfect. MJF had Territory Heat. And Wardlow was made last night.

I wanted Page to retain. Punk I don’t think needs the World Title but it sounds like Punk has lead to a lot of finical growth in the company so I guess it makes sense on that end. I think Page could of had a longer run. Forbidden Door being in Chicago Punk as Champ going into Chicago makes a ton of sense. 

[DEAN]

Since I knew the finish of the Adam Cole/Samoa Joe, I wasn't rooting for one guy to win over the other, so I can notice that Adam Cole is fucking awesome and he took a MAN-SIZED beating.  Joe sold the shoulder early and it set up the finish, even if you couldn;t really buy it without the Bobby Fish run-in.  Joe was a fucking machine in this match and it was neat watching them figuring out what they had to throw at this match to make the finish make some sort of sense.  It comes close, but MAN! does Cole take an assbeating and earned his victory.  I loved the slow motion of Joe's GIGANTIC Lariat where Cole just closes his eyes and takes it.

[Ramo2653]

14 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

CM Punk winning was good because I think it was time. I'd probably rather have him be heel though. 

He's an effortless enough jackass that it'll be fine.