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AEW - MAY 2022


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Removing tag titles works in the context that they have enormous amounts of factions, and a trios title is more befitting a faction than tag titles are. That said, the tag titles have had eminence there, although they do have a ton of titles (including alternative tag titles). The scenario that doesn’t seem to work is tag and trios title - difficult to see where the hierarchy in belts is, and there should always be some sort of definable hierarchy.

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I'll double down on the unpopular opinion.

Being a fan of tag team wrestling is an IWC trope that probably should have died once it became a Jim Cornette talking point. It's just a platform to show that you appreciate the art of wrestling more, because tag ropes, teams cheating behind the refs back, double team moves, blind tags, complaining about lucha rules vs traditional rules, and a unit being stronger than two individual guys are all pathos that make you seem more of a student of the art form. The format hasn't really evolved beyond small flippy good guys and good technical guys vs monster tag team and evil technical but cheating guys. Occasional exception for brawler tag teams of various alignments, and the wacky tag partners who don't get along. 

Since 1990, for every good year of tag wrestling in North America, there's arguably been as many as 10 bad ones. Yes, AEW have done it as well as anyone since Crockett, but I feel like it's a part of wrestling that has evolved to its ceiling - its ability to tell a story outside the ring without the dreaded tag team split up, its ability to tell a story in the ring as far as false finishes go without requiring ridiculous hat-on-a-hat-on-a-hat type spots. 

I think I'm just ready to see something new and different on screen - the six man titles would be embracing a level of chaos that no other promotion has been prepared to do - and rightly so to a degree, because guys get hurt, leave the promotion, want to be a singles guy. I feel as though that history has shown that those sort of ad-hoc booking steps required to accommodate that, has often produced good results. As AK pointed out - there's more than enough factions to justify it.

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Have AEW champs defend titles outside the company from time to time, like when WWE would occasionally have an NXT championship defended in EVOLVE or PROGRESS. Shit like that is fun and helps the indies. 

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I at least understand the thought process now, even if I disagree with it. So thank you for explaining it better.

I do love tag team wrestling. Whether that's because the internet trained me to like them or not I can't say for sure. But loving The Rock n Roll Express, The Midnight Express, all the Horsemen combinations, The British Bulldogs, The Road Warriors, The Steiners, The Hart Foundation, The Rockers, & Demolition growing up when there was no internet lends me to believe I always loved and appreciated good tag team wrestling.

The over aching point you have about tag wrestling not evolving is not totally unfounded, but that's wrestling as a genre altogether. There's strict formulas for all match types. And then you can mix and match and play around with the tropes. But if you boil it down, whether it's single's wrestling tag wrestling trios wrestling wargames matches and even royal rumbles... it's all just shine heat hope comeback go home. Every single match ever. It's all very basic when you boil it down like that. I get if you just don't enjoy the tag formula. But singles matches are just as formulaic.

Edited by NoFistsJustFlips
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From an in-ring perspective - I completely agree, and any real attempt to change that formula has largely resulted in....Russo consequences.

Outside the ring though, rarely is there much effort into looking at the storylines/drama/the individual personalities involved in that storyline for a tag team. 

Page/Omega is the absolute exception to the rule, but otherwise, you can probably struggle to find double figures of tag team programs that weren't largely dictated by what happened in the ring, let alone had a storyline that wasn't one partner turning on the other. That's where I believe it can improve, rather than treating it as its own universe, and the wrestling equivalent of tennis doubles, where you appreciate the teams for their contextual talents, but the real important stuff is the singles. 

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I think a Trios title is a good idea on paper because AEW tends to book a lot of multi-man tag team matches, and there are lot of stables in AEW with just enough people to fulfill the trios tag team goal. It gives them something else to feud over and a natural goal to fulfill and to justify booking them on TV on a regular basis.

So guys like John Silver and the Dark Order can finally win an AEW title. Death Triangle can win an AEW title. The House of Black can win an AEW title, and so on. It's a natural fit and adds a little extra spice to constantly booking six-man tag matches on the shows.

However, AEW definitely has a booking problem as they are now forced to service and book ROH titles and present themselves as The Real AEW Ghostbuster & ROH.

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i just like the idea of singles, doubles, and triples champions. 

lots of interesting potentail there, both in and out of the ring. of course, equal potential for it to just be a big mess. but i'm willing to give it a shot.

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55 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

So guys like John Silver and the Dark Order can finally win an AEW title. Death Triangle can win an AEW title. The House of Black can win an AEW title, and so on. It's a natural fit and adds a little extra spice to constantly booking six-man tag matches on the shows.

This is something we will have to wait and see on. Everyone is justifying trios titles by saying it will give the lower card stables something to do. And I kind of doubt that happens. They have already said the titles will debut when Omega is back. So at least in the short term, bank on The Elite vs Undisputed Era is your title feud. After six months to a year of that you have The Blackpool Combat Club involved. And so on. The point I'm trying to demonstrate is this isn't going to be used for the lower card guys. It's going to be given to the bigger names. Best Friends will never hold them. Santana & Ortiz and Eddie Kingston will never hold them. Dark Order will never hold them. House of Black might hold them... but not for like at least 2 years after the titles debut. If House of Black is still even a thing by then.

But that's okay. Not everyone needs to hold a title. Feuds and stories can still happen without titles involved. We're fast getting to Invasion levels of titles being around and it's just too much. 2 men's World titles (AEW & ROH). 2 women's World Titles (AEW & ROH). 1 women's midcard titles (TBS). 4 men's midcard titles (TNT, FTW, Pure, TV). 3 men's tag titles (AEW, ROH, AAA). Currently only 1 set of trios titles (ROH).

We're talking 12 active championships that get defended in AEW right now (plus the ROH six mans that exist but just haven't yet). When AEW debuts their trios titles that's 14 total titles. That's 21 total people holding titles. It's too much. When everyone is a champion, no one is a champion.

Edited by NoFistsJustFlips
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2 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

This is something we will have to wait and see on. Everyone is justifying trios titles by saying it will give the lower card stables something to do. And I kind of doubt that happens. They have already said the titles will debut when Omega is back. So at least in the short term, bank on The Elite vs Undisputed Era is your title feud. After six months to a year of that you have The Blackpool Combat Club involved. And so on. The point I'm trying to demonstrate is this isn't going to be used for the lower card guys. It's going to be given to the bigger names. Best Friends will never hold them. Santana & Ortiz and Eddie Kingston will never hold them. Dark Order will never hold them. House of Black might hold them... but not for like at least 2 years after the titles debut. If House of Black is still even a thing by then.

But that's okay. Not everyone needs to hold a title. Feuds and stories can still happen without titles involved. We're fast getting to Invasion levels of titles being around and it's just too much. 2 men's World titles (AEW & ROH). 2 women's World Titles (AEW & ROH). 1 women's midcard titles (TBS). 4 men's midcard titles (TNT, FTW, Pure, TV). 3 men's tag titles (AEW, ROH, AAA). Currently only 1 set of trios titles (ROH).

We're talking 12 active championships that get defended in AEW right now (plus the ROH six mans that exist but just haven't yet). When AEW debuts their trios titles that's 14 total titles. That's 21 total people holding titles. It's too much. When everyone is a champion, no one is a champion.

Hey I've seen saying for weeks I want ROH dissolved, permanently. If you keep one, keep the Pure title.

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7 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

Hey I've seen saying for weeks I want ROH dissolved, permanently. If you keep one, keep the Pure title.

I know it hasn't been very long at all, but the longer they go without separate ROH TV the more I'm leaning toward this as well. Ive been waiting to see which of these matches becomes Buff vs Booker in Tacoma.

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9 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I know it hasn't been very long at all, but the longer they go without separate ROH TV the more I'm leaning toward this as well. Ive been waiting to see which of these matches becomes Buff vs Booker in Tacoma.

It arguably already happened last week with the women's match. I've harkened back to this a few times, but given they flirted with an Impact "invasion" angle some time back, I don't for the life of me understand why they haven't veered in that direction with ROH, which has far more legitimacy and way bigger names behind it. The elite ROH group who never had the infrastructure/money behind them to succeed in the underground & therefore had to compromise their values/morals to succeed in the big E, raising up against the 'nouveau riche' AEW built on the principles they created in the underground on the backing of a lucky billionaire they never had. The story basically writes itself & would have given the big arc AEW are desperately missing at the moment in the narrative.

Edited by A_K
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The same reason why The WCW Invasion failed, they don't have a big enough roster under contract for it to happen.

You'd have to have a bunch of AEW people defect to ROH to even make a basis for ROH having a roster. Or else it's Gresham & Samoa Joe vs 118 AEW guys basically. If you have a bunch of AEW guys turn and defect to AEW is just feels inauthentic. Punk & Danielson are two of the most solidified guys in AEW (they are on almost every week). If you have them turn it makes sense in the context they started in ROH, but it also doesn't make sense because neither of them have been in ROH for like 15 years now.

Only way an actual invasion works is if there are two separate full and legitimate rosters to compete against each other. 24 younger unknown WCW plus Booker & DDP wasn't enough in 2001... and Samoa Joe & Gresham alone just isn't enough in 2022.

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An Invasion is too big, but JAS targeting the ROH wrestlers would make sense. BCC can step in and get that feud going. They could have Garcia win one of the belts and then turn him when Jericho tries to make him throw the belt in the trash on tv. Briscoes murdering Daddy Magic and Angelo. And so on. 

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1 minute ago, (BP) said:

An Invasion is too big, but JAS targeting the ROH wrestlers would make sense. BCC can step in and get that feud going. They could have Garcia win one of the belts and then turn him when Jericho tries to make him throw the belt in the trash on tv. Briscoes murdering Daddy Magic and Angelo. And so on. 

Garcia and Yuta have a ton of chemistry and familiarity with one another. Sending Garcia in to take the Pure belt and make it a Sports Entertainment belt where you have to do NXT style obstacle courses and diss the diva style segments would be amazing.

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2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

The same reason why The WCW Invasion failed, they don't have a big enough roster under contract for it to happen.

You'd have to have a bunch of AEW people defect to ROH to even make a basis for ROH having a roster. Or else it's Gresham & Samoa Joe vs 118 AEW guys basically. If you have a bunch of AEW guys turn and defect to AEW is just feels inauthentic. Punk & Danielson are two of the most solidified guys in AEW (they are on almost every week). If you have them turn it makes sense in the context they started in ROH, but it also doesn't make sense because neither of them have been in ROH for like 15 years now.

Only way an actual invasion works is if there are two separate full and legitimate rosters to compete against each other. 24 younger unknown WCW plus Booker & DDP wasn't enough in 2001... and Samoa Joe & Gresham alone just isn't enough in 2022.

Oh yeah the idea totally presumes that Punk & Danielson fall on the ROH side. Certainly not enough star power with existing ROH to make it happen. Its basically an amping up of the sports entertainment vs. PW angle they're already pursuing elsewhere in the promotion. Coming back to "pro wrestling" to find Bucks running around in Dior, Jericho doing his shtick etc. Basically I think there are interesting ways to incorporate ROH and what ROH stood for narratively on a temporary basis, but as a stand-alone permanent promotion it won't be it.

Edited by A_K
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They certainly could do that. But I would advise against it. It turns AEW into the heel. Like the JAS are heels because they are doing sport entertainment right? And people don't want that here. Making AEW as a whole take that stance (especially to the core audience they have) will get fans to consider them as the bad ones vs the ROH good ones (narrative speaking).

And over time if you stick with a narrative long enough it can seem like fact. I to this day think them riding the Mr McMahon character as far as they did (and using The Authority and heel authority figures in general) was detrimental to WWE as a brand. Like the Mr McMahon thing with Austin was amazing. But he should have turned baby at some point after that and stayed baby. A lot of the anti WWE fan sentiment is down to some people buying in harder than they should on the narrative of evil owners that hate the fans. Then you got into weird grey areas like when The Authority were the top heels but came out and cut that 'We hear you, keep watching. You're the real authority here. Changes are coming.' promo and nothing really changed. So that was supposed to be legit but just ended up seeming like a story.

Basically the juice is not worth the squeeze going that way.

 

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4 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

They certainly could do that. But I would advise against it. It turns AEW into the heel. Like the JAS are heels because they are doing sport entertainment right? And people don't want that here. Making AEW as a whole take that stance (especially to the core audience they have) will get fans to consider them as the bad ones vs the ROH good ones (narrative speaking).

And over time if you stick with a narrative long enough it can seem like fact. I to this day think them riding the Mr McMahon character as far as they did (and using The Authority and heel authority figures in general) was detrimental to WWE as a brand. Like the Mr McMahon thing with Austin was amazing. But he should have turned baby at some point after that and stayed baby. A lot of the anti WWE fan sentiment is down to some people buying in harder than they should on the narrative of evil owners that hate the fans. Then you got into weird grey areas like when The Authority were the top heels but came out and cut that 'We hear you, keep watching. You're the real authority here. Changes are coming.' promo and nothing really changed. So that was supposed to be legit but just ended up seeming like a story.

Basically the juice is not worth the squeeze going that way.

 

Kayfabe psychosis goes both ways. Vince did his best booking when he was a "worker", but he took parts of that character home with him.

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Holy shit, we had long theme songs back in the day.

Also, point of order: the "Settle down" meme is riffing on a (now banned?) poster named "Hollywood Cibernetico." The proper conjugation of said meme is to add the suffix "netico" or "etico" to a name, which is not to be confused with the suffix "cito," used to denote a mini in Mexico.

In DEAN's example, one would tell him to, "Settle down, Hollywood DEANetico," as Hollywood Cibernetico would often get as horny as NXT 2.0 about pictures of ladies.

The_More_You_Know_0-0_screenshot.jpg

Edited by Dog
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10 minutes ago, Dog said:

Holy shit, we had long theme songs back in the day.

Also, point of order: the "Settle down" meme is riffing on a (now banned?) poster named "Hollywood Cibernetico." The proper conjugation of said meme is to add the suffix "netico" or "etico" to a name, which is not to be confused with the suffix "cito," used to denote a mini in Mexico.

In DEAN's example, one would tell him to, "Settle down, Hollywood DEANetico," as Hollywood Cibernetico would often get as horny as NXT 2.0 about pictures of ladies.

The_More_You_Know_0-0_screenshot.jpg

DEAN basically invented the tilde bang and helped found the board, we can cut him some slack. Plus he’s old ?

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