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MOON KNIGHT (SPOILER TALK)


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10 hours ago, Eivion said:

90s X-Men and Spider-Man was my introduction to Marvel beyond the Hulk. Both were hampered somewhat by censorship but still managed some good stuff, especially Spider-Man. X-Men might not be in my top 5 or so on quality, but it is up there in terms of favoritism. 

Feel the same way. Still a fan of the 1990s Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons.

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Fuck it, my top ten Marvel TV shows and reasons for choices.

10. What...If? The show rewards long-time fans of Marvel Studios MCU with references to its past, the similarities and the differences deviating from what we know. The animation style is great. Party Thor and Strange Supreme the standout episodes.

9. Agents of Shield. Season 4 is terrific especially Agents of Hydra. Season 1 is probably the most criticised but it has the best two episodes in the show's history. I like AoS more than most. Still need to finish Season 7, the final one.

8. X-Men 1990s cartoon. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Cool how it adapted storylines like Dark Phoenix. Still the voices I hear for Wolverine and Rogue. One of the best TV themes ever. Be interesting to see how the revival turns out.

7. Spider-Man 1990s cartoon. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Cool how it adapted storylines such as The Kid who Collects Spider-Man. I have Christopher Daniel Barnes second only to Josh Keaton for voicing Peter Parker/Spider-Man.

6. WandaVision. Really liked the speculative theories from the fanbase as to what was happening. Made the show stand out that. Shame the last episode was the worst one.

5. Loki. More Loki's good with me. Liked the Loki and Morbius partnership. Classic Loki by Richard E Grant stole the show. Only Disney+ Marvel show to stick the landing.

4. Agent Carter. All about the interactions between Agent Peggy Carter and Edwin Jarvis. Such a great comedic partnership. Needs talking up more. Great first season, second season was a sizeable drop in quality.

3. Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. What a show for the writing, vocal work, catchy theme song in the first season and adapting the comics. I own the DVD box set collecting it all. Sucks it was replaced by Avengers Assemble.

2. Daredevil. The best thing in the MCU and best live action ever. Season 1 is fantastic, Season 2 is still good but a big drop from its predecessor while Season 3 was terrific and a return to form. I'd narrowly have S1 ahead of S3.

1. The Spectacular Spider-Man. The best Spider-Man away from the comics and sometimes better than them. I have this over Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse and Spider-Man: No Way Home. Never had a problem with the art style, the most common complaint. Amazing, Spectacular show for the animation, writing, voice work and theme song. Travesty getting replaced by the worst Spider-Man cartoon ever in Ultimate Spider-Man and worst Spidey actor as well.

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Jessica Jones would be #11 even though Season 1 peaked a few episodes before the end of S1. Got halfway through S2 and never went back nor will I.

Edited by The Natural
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I feel like the one person here that liked Moon Knight.  Not saying the whole thing was a home run but there was plenty that we enjoyed about it.  I think what hurt it the most was it needed at least two more episodes to flesh things out.  But episode 5 was far the best one with the finale being solid enough.  I also maintain that even with Steven being annoying I liked how they worked it where Mark realized how much he needed him.  Ethan did a good job but I think Oscar was great in nailing the transitions between personas.  I know it's TV magic but he pulled it off really well.  So while I don't have this anywhere near the top I thought the show was a good enough starting point.  If there's a season two I hope things are more cohesive and they have a chance to go all-out with this.

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I think the difference between Moon Knight and the other 4 Disney+ shows is that, while each of those shows had their own flaws and wonkiness, they all had a strong character relationship at the core of their stories, which provided an emotional through line that could keep you invested in seeing what happened next for those characters, even if the plotting wasn’t great. Wanda/Vision, Sam/Bucky, Loki/Morbius, Clint/Kate…These well-developed and likable pairings can keep you hooked in the midst of, like, borderline nonsensical Flag Smasher conspiracies and the completely asinine Mystery of Hawkeye’s Watch. Ultimately, the success or failure of any TV show usually comes down the question “Do you like to hang out with these people?”

Ultimately, Moon Knight never really had that. Yes, it was attempting to pull off a much tougher trick by having the central relationship be the same person, but…You gotta land the trick. And they never really did. Steven was simply not an enjoyable character to spend time with for the majority of the season, and by the time they got around to explaining that there was a reason for that, it was already WAYYYY too late in the game.

If they had gotten to the afterlife episode earlier in the season, maybe things could’ve been different. That was really the only episode I liked. TV shows making central character motivations a mystery is a plague.

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Yeah. That’s it. Or…

Maybe if it had a ton of MCU hoopla to lean on, but it had none. 

Maybe it had one clear thematic vision, but it had three. 

Maybe if it had clever pacing or a killer supporting cast or really unique action….

Lots of maybes for one pretty lame show.

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It's also, I think, the first show without a main character(s) from an MCU movie. Wanda/Vision, Bucky/Sam, Loki and Clint were already pre-existing characters/actors to the audience.  

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Sure, but LOKI really doesn’t work if Morbius and Sylvie, who are brand new, don’t work. And HAWKEYE doesn’t work *at all* if audiences don’t connect with Kate quickly. But I think both of those shows managed to launch those characters very effectively, and that’s a big reason why they’re perceived differently than MOON KNIGHT.

Edited by EVA
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@EVAhas a really great point.  To expand on it, I think Moon Knight had such a hard time getting off the ground because we had two protagonists in the same person and neither personality was particularly well-written or the kind of person the viewer would have a reason to root for.  Bishop, Mobius, and Sylvie were well-written, appealing characters created in such a way that you could get behind them quickly.  Steven and Marc were not that at all.  Maybe instead of the JJ Abrams mystery box stuff, the backstory could have happened much sooner somehow.

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Moon Knight I think needed to start as a dirty urban noir vigilante series. Need more of Marc in the costume fighting crime. He has enhanced abilities, but not that makes him invincible. I would've kept him experiencing blackouts or lost time. Sees Khonshu, he is clearly disturbed. He's not sure what's real and what isn't. But he has his main circle of characters, Frenchie is there, and the Moon Copter. 

Stuff like with the Egyptian deities is what you do in a third or final season. Make it so as his connection to Khonshu grows, so do his powers and abilities, but it also makes him more volatile and dangerous.

As Moon Knight Marc can get hurt and wounded. There are no stakes and there's no suspense if his suit makes him invincible. It also makes no sense if he's omnipotent for the suit to give him gadgets and a grappling hook.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Overall, I didn't like this series at all.  Just so...nothing?  

There were a couple positives for me.  One was Ethan Hawke.  He was really good in his role.

The other was how Isaac played each personality.  He'd totally change his posture and the way he moved for each of them.  That was nice.

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I'll agree (mostly) with Niko and say I liked this.

Was Steven an annoying character?  Yeah.  But he's Dr. Watson-annoying, not Jar-Jar-annoying.  Once you see what a thoughtless POS Marc really is, you appreciate Steven's willingness to do the right thing.

The biggest strength of this show was, in fact, a relationship and it's like all y'all just blanked on it.  I really, really liked Layla and I loved how the love "triangle" played out with her.  If anything, the show needed more backstory *there* - some better understanding of why Marc and Layla were ever married in the first place, but maybe done with an eye towards showing how Marc was mostly keeping tabs on her, only to see him suddenly get jealous when Steven appears and starts mooning over her (which happens in the show, obviously, but has no foundation in anything, except 'man get jealous').  Oscar Isaac was pretty damned good, too, but that should be no surprise.  I have generally hated Ethan Hawke in all things and all ways - I've called him Ratface since his Dead Poet Society days - but this continues his old man redemption tour in my eyes.  And Tawaret was a really great touch.

But the scope of this, if that's the best way to think of it, really bothered me.  I agree he shouldn't basically be invincible, and yet this was pretty much Wolverine+Batman, so fuck me if I'm supposed to believe anyone or anything can hurt him.  It made it especially weird with the way Harrow/Ammit are dispatched at the end - I mean, yeah, that's supposed to be the Lockley trick - but it's just bizarre at best that he's the only one of the set of avatars with so much physical resilience, or perhaps I should say, the only one with so much Plot Armor.  Wasn't there, like, literally one of them who was the god of life and rebirth and shit?  Shouldn't that avatar have coughed up an ancestral hairball and come back to life after Harrow gakked them all in the chamber?  And plus, he's a street-level guy doing "Save the World"-level stuff right out of the gate.  My guess is they didn't have faith this would latch on like the other shows and they packed in as much as they could.  Additionally, all the psych ward stuff where MK is the patient feels jarring and untethered, and the way that bit ends the show (prior to the tag, anyway) is just weak.

Plus, the CGI is really hit-or-miss.  The costumes look great, but there were a bunch of really hokey-looking bits, too.

This may be the least of the Disney shows in terms of quality, but I feel like it's more memorable and compelling than Cap/WS was, and I like it for change of pace and taking some actual chances in terms of direction, even if it was sometimes a swing and a miss.  I would probably rewatch this before rewatching most of the others, when it comes right down to it.

Edited by Contentious C
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The Mummy scene really bugged me in episode 4. If Harrow can summon undead mummies, why doesn't he summon more? What was the Mummy doing? Performing some sort of ritualistic sacrifice for Harrow? They never revisited that. Just a Mummy creeping around who stalks Layla.

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1 hour ago, Contentious C said:

I never for a second thought that was his doing. Plus it was killing his mercs. Clearly a spooky and old defense system.

Not really properly established as such. If that was some sort of magical alarm system, the other council of Egyptian deity avatars should've been clued into Harrow and acted. 

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