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Dynamite - 12/8/2021


Dolfan in NYC

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6 minutes ago, chriskbrown50 said:

Well lets hope whatever happens with Julia it has an endgame. Alexa literally just disappeared after Charlotte beat her. The "corrupting" of Julia could lead all kinds of ways;  Tony tends to have things mapped out (well when Cody is not involved). 

A gothic bad guy spit poison mist in a cheerleader's face enraging the jocks and drawing them into his trap where he gets to beat the crap out of them. Pillman's posted a tweet wondering if Black is even human. Griff's posted one saying that he's going to beat the crap out of Black. Until we have any reason to believe otherwise, it's going to lead to some matches, some shine, and plenty of pain and then we'll move on to whatever's next. I'm not expecting grand lore involving Gozer here unless there's some more sign of that. I saw Rusher Kimura spit mist into Tenryu's face in 1990 last night. He didn't suddenly become Luna Vachon.

Edited by Matt D
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Mist doesn’t have to be corrupting and shouldn’t be; spitting substance on anyone should, in the COVID era, be outrageous and heat-worthy in its own right, no supernatural element required

Edited by BobbyWhioux
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12 hours ago, Jiji said:

I referred to Rosa, as in Thunder, who I think is the best in-ring worker they have in the women's division. Hayter smokes Nyla outta the water and she's nearing Thunder's level.

Thunder Rosa might be the best female worker in this hemisphere ATM. Jamie Hayter is closing fast. 

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Surprise Bitch!  It’s another good episode of Dynamite.

Outside of a couple of production snafus.  There isn’t much to complain about.  
 

Good times!  Hayter is really great at wrestling.  Once we get past the current big storylines.  It would be a crime to not push her to the moon.  I’m not a big RIHO fan.  But she was excellent as well last night.

The show seemed overly busy with two multi-man tag team matches.   But they were both great and featured the return of one of my favorite characters.  Sue.

That minivan entrance better be available in the AEW game.

Hook!  Feel free to keep that catch phrase I posted here last week, brother.

I missed Thunder Bae on this weeks show.

I love you, AEW.

 

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9 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Not jumping on you specifically, but I want to jump off this point.

Daniel Bryan is presenting as a "heel" and coming out of the "face" tunnel to face fellow "babyface" John Silver in hour two while he gets ready to challenge Hangman Page. "Face" CM Punk is aggressively presenting as "heel" to the Long Island crowd and challenging them to fight him a few weeks after he basically called one of the most sympathetic "faces" on the roster an underachieving slob. The most popular competitor in the women's division is the very favourably received "heel" Britt Baker. Eddie Kingston remains a "babyface" after petulantly stepping to the #1 "face" in the company. Who even knows what Malakai Black is, I've never seen him come out of a tunnel or give a reasonable explanation for anything he's ever done. And I'll ask everyone to take my usual Codymania as read and just fill in the blanks on what are several obvious points I'd add to my case. 

Which is all to say that while heel/face dynamics have an important place in wrestling and I love them oh so much (and most of AEW's roster adheres to them), I suspect a good deal of AEW's marquee names have a desire to exist on a different plane than that. There are quite a few wrestlers on this roster for who it would probably do people good to disabuse themselves of notions regarding appropriate face/heel dynamics. There is a desire for fluidity here that I think a lot of fans are unprepared for. 

I get it. I'm not sure I did a good job explaining why it felt off to me.

The first hour of the show felt very much to me like TK and co were trying to anticipate the reaction MJF was going to get and plan accordingly. It felt very reactionary. I don't disagree with your assertion that a lot of AEW's top folks don't overly concern themselves with the "face/heel" dynamic.

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4 hours ago, hammerva said:

If this feud is about Black vs Pillman, the biggest problem is that Pillman has shown absolutely no fire at all.  He is stuck in rookie year NWA/WCW mode.   When Max Caster was making sexual references to Julia he just ignore them.   When MJF called his mom a meth head he tried to get pissed but still played like it was just a Dark match with very little hate.    

If they brought in Kevin Sullivan as an evil mentor which I think they were trying to do in MLW maybe it could work.  But Pillman needs a major character upgrade right now

 

I don't think Pillman has it in him.  I didn't see it in MLW, I haven't seen it in AEW.  He's modern day Tom Zenk with a huge helping of crappy attitude and takes.

 

I think misting Julia instead of Pillman is a sign they're going to do something with Julia.   I don't see TK fridging just to fridge.

 

 

Edited by alstein
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Just a baffling opening 30 minutes to me. I love love love the sports-like treat people like big deals in their home towns thing. It's what I would be doing if I were running a major promotion. Britt in Pittsburgh. Punk in Chicago. Mox in Cincinnati. I get it and I love it. But as far as the face - heel dynamic goes, MJF is the exception where this just doesn't work. MJF is presented as a real piece of shit on and off screen. They go to great lengths to keep that kayfabe up, including the announcers calling him a prick and his dropping f bombs on Cody's show about his baby or whatever, and his parents bringing signs to shows saying he's a cunt and they hate him too.

You just can't present MJF as anyone's guy. He's supposed to be the constant. He's a piece of shit. He treats everyone like shit. There is no redeemable qualities to this character. So they send Punk out to try and force this home town thing very non-organically. And Punk is smart to not actually say anything too heelish to ruin his presentations in other cities. Just generic shit about sports teams. But he spams the phrase "he's your guy" to the point I wanted to just break my tv. He's so much better than this. So is AEW. Let shit happen organically, don't beat a dead horse WWE style. Plus it's not like MJF did anything on this show. He did the standard chickenshit heel battle royal. You didn't even get a match with fun reactions out of it.

Just a total 3,000% miss for me. Again love the sports team concept. But the execution here, and the terrible choice of going against the entirety of MJF's booking his whole career, is just a staggeringly bad call. One AEW usually doesn't make. You wanna know why that crowd sucked? It's because they were manipulated and confused all night. If you cut that Punk promo the crowd would have had much better reactions.

No sir, I didn't like it.

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They were expecting MJF to get cheered days before the event even happened, TK was all over Barstools Sports shows talking about how this is the one place where Punk might not get a big babyface reaction. They cheered for MJF's music at first, then started to boo when Punk came out. It's not like Punk came out, got a massive face reaction, and tried to turn the crowd against him. They were against him the minute he walked out of the tunnel.

Long Island just fucking sucks, man.

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They may have been expecting it, but it was presented as something the booking wanted. Punk coming out to the hometown guy's entrance was pure heel presentation and AEW fans are nothing if not eager to play along (except with that one guy, but really they are with him too). They didn't just let it happen, they helped it happen. They manufactured things so it 100% happened. 

I don't always care for talk of organic vs non-organic, because I find it's a thumbing of the nose at the craft of getting to the destination they want you to arrive at. A lot of things people have loved (some even in this company) have been crafted very "non-organically." Planning to arrive at a certain reaction or crescendo isn't in itself a bad thing. But if people are against it for MJF in this particular instance, I can see the case for that. 

Re: the crowd "sucking" because of the opening thirty minutes, well that's always a risk when you put the main event and biggest thing on the show on first. This probably should have been the last thirty minutes.

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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26 minutes ago, Casey said:

They were expecting MJF to get cheered days before the event even happened, TK was all over Barstools Sports shows talking about how this is the one place where Punk might not get a big babyface reaction. They cheered for MJF's music at first, then started to boo when Punk came out. It's not like Punk came out, got a massive face reaction, and tried to turn the crowd against him. They were against him the minute he walked out of the tunnel.

Long Island just fucking sucks, man.

Wonder if you or anyone else realizes that the arena is literally like a few hundred feet from the Nassau/Queens border and that lots of that crowd came from the western side of that border?

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I think they probably cheered because they know Pro Wrestling isn’t real and because MJF is legitimately an over the top witty dude who goes to the absolute max in his theatrical, fictional character presentation and should be respected for it. How a viewer can be into a 100 lb adult woman running around in a tutu winning against a 170 lb competitor by literally jumping on them after just receiving finisher-impact-after-finisher-impact style moves but turn their nose at that mayhem style character work of MJF being conflicted with being the Dante-saving-hero in his hometown only to run in and do what his opportunist POS character does best .. well to each viewer their own theatre. This is what it would of been like with Triple H in his Game  late 90s era returning to New Hampshire / Connecticut. Even a heel has to have a home.

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39 minutes ago, Casey said:

They were expecting MJF to get cheered days before the event even happened, TK was all over Barstools Sports shows talking about how this is the one place where Punk might not get a big babyface reaction. They cheered for MJF's music at first, then started to boo when Punk came out. It's not like Punk came out, got a massive face reaction, and tried to turn the crowd against him. They were against him the minute he walked out of the tunnel.

Long Island just fucking sucks, man.

It's inconsistent with how the character is portrayed.

They were expecting him to get cheered big. I'm with you so far, no problem with that concept. The crowd pays their money and can and should cheer whatever or whoever they want. MJF is a slimy piece of shit (character wise). He's the one guy that kayfabe is so strong for he makes sure to be an absolute piece of shit at all times. Fan interactions. Social media. On tv. On media appearances. The character is a constant.

They pissed in the face of all that kayfabe work. Present the guy the same as he's always been. If the crowd cheers him there that's totally fine. But don't change the entire booking philosophy for him (and by extension Punk and everyone else in the battle royal) because of the location. Let MJF be MJF. Let the crowd react how they react. Don't send Punk out to do a tepid soft heel promo. Don't force it.

That pre entrance video for him was perfect. That's something his character would do no matter of the location. Even his booking in the battle royal was well done. That's shit MJF does regardless of location. Sending Punk out to do reverse pandering wasn't clever. It was forced and definitely unnecessary.

I also disagree with the level at which the crowd was wanting to cheer. There was a pop for his music when it was Punk. But all the big stars in AEW get a pop for their music. I think there were more people wanting to play along and boo the constant shit bag, then cheer for him. Evidenced by the amount of anti-MJF signs. I think the AEW audience is smart enough to know the best way to pay homage to his act if they enjoy is boo the shit out of him. Even in his home town. But regardless, even him being cheered majorly I would have been fine with.

It was the inconsistency of sending out Punk to pander that I have a dispute about.

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13 minutes ago, A_K said:

This is what it would of been like with Triple H in his Game  late 90s era returning to New Hampshire / Connecticut. Even a heel has to have a home.

They ran a shit ton of shows in that area and not once did they ever send out big time baby face Bret Hart to heel on a Connecticut crowd for the sake of cheering blue blood Hunter Hearst Helmsley.

Attitude Era "The Game" Triple H wasn't a stuck up blue blood character. The Game was an aggressive badass who got one of the loudest pops ever in MSG when he returned from the quad tear.

Comparing apples to palm trees with this one.

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I've got no problem with the MJF/Punk stuff except for an over-reliance of hockey talk. You just have to assume Long Islanders are inherently descended from criminals or something. The problem is when it bled into the Dante story.

Edited by Matt D
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38 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Wonder if you or anyone else realizes that the arena is literally like a few hundred feet from the Nassau/Queens border and that lots of that crowd came from the western side of that border?

New York fucking sucks, oh snap you got me?

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It has been mentioned further up the thread but they need to sort out Dante’s gormless expressions ASAP. For a stud of a prospect he has such a half witted look on his face at various pivotal character moments. Sky’s the limit for that guy if they can get an ounce of character work / mix charisma out of him. Agility & talent in the ring is absurd.

 

 

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I enjoyed the opening thirty minutes and love it when the characters go with the flow of the show. CM Punk wasn't out there trotting around with his bullshit babyface gimmick that we've all grown accustomed to recently and (despite the cheap heat with the Islanders) thought he cut a pretty solid promo. Whether or not MJF was always going to get cheered in Long Island - half the guys gimmick is basically proclaiming where he comes from is the greatest place on earth. Of course he's going to get cheered just like Punk would in Chicago, the rep their cities fairly regularly within their characters. Promo video before the battle royal was money too. I would like to see a face MJF now?

As for the battle royal, man Jay Lethal hasn't done anything yet but that's what happens with three hours of "meaningful" TV a week and so many people. How the hell do they determine who makes it into these matches? Lee Moriarty is 3-7 this year when that spot clearly belongs to Colton Gunn... The results were right on and I fully expect Dante Martin to beat MJF next week. Look, he can't hold the diamond ring forever unless they're trying to jack Alex Colon's "3 peat" gimmick now (more sarcasm), but for real it should be time for someone else to grab the proverbial ring and maybe get a little shine off of it.

Hayter now taking over the US is what I'm here for, but thankfully not at the expense of Riho. I love me some Riho and usually we only get limited time with her over here, so I like seeing her have a push while she can. Hayter hopefully will be a staple in the womens division for a long time to come. Speaking of which, I feel like not too long ago we were having discussions of how their womens division was lacking. Hayter and Ruby Soho being added in with Thunder Rosa, Britt Baker, Serena Deeb, Hikaru Shida and then you sprinkle in your Statlanders, Conti, Anna Jay, Jade Cargill - we're 10 deep in the division already with other ladies there to help fluff it out.

SUE! FUCKING SUE!!~ And Trent looking like Jon Moxley.

So next week we get Danielson vs. Hangman already. There's no shot that they take the title off of Hangman already right? That would have to be up there for one of the shortest reigns for any champion if that were the case. I want to envision Danielson winning the belt, but I just don't see it happening. It's too soon. But then again, I don't see Hangman going over Danielson clean either.

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Taz was always someone I wrote off as well beyond his prime when he was in TNA, never thought I’d enjoy him as much as I have been in AEW. Him and Excalibur are definitely their best commentary duo.

Good episode last night, but it definitely felt like they were cramming too much in and didn’t let things breathe. So a typical episode of Dynamite in other words. Found the Malakai Black angle cringeworthy, very WWE-esque. If Black had just beaten Cody in the third match he’d feel like a top star with few peers to me, now he feels like just another mid card guy. Him and Cody are both guys I really enjoy from a pure bell to bell standpoint, but outside the ring I almost always cringe at their character work.

Hayter/Riho was great. I get people don’t buy Riho’s offense, but she’s definitely one of the best women from a technical standpoint, never does a move she can’t execute cleanly, takes big beatings, and the size difference always lends itself to better match dynamics. And Hayter is also one of my favorites. I enjoy every little thing she does from her strut down the ramp to watching her catch girls on dives. She has a tenacity that is all too lacking in wrestling.

I get that it really cuts the legs out from Hangman, and while I love the dude, Bryan Danielson is on another level and I’d really prefer him in the champion role now. His weekly beatdown gimmick is great and would be even better with the higher stakes of being world champion. Hangman was boring me to tears last week on commentary, I don’t know if he was supposed to acting reserved and at a loss for words, but multiple times he had nothing to say when pressed. Bryan vs. anyone with world title stakes is super appealing to me, whereas Hangman would be better in a long term feud with a big heel like MJF.

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You know a couple weeks back when Punk's music hit and he came out in Chicago I thought to myself "You know if this was WWE they would have played his music, then bought out MJF  to SWERVE the audience and build up heat...and it always backfires because aside from the initial cheers turned to boos, all it really does is undercut the actual pop when said face comes out and isn't it refreshing that AEW doesn't do that!" and then last night they did it. They hyped that MJF Long Island return all week and then did the "heel" (in this case face, but they knew he was going to get a heel reaction) walking out to the wrong music, never had MJF come back on him, or even speak in front of the audience and it really played like WWE when they would try to control reactions in Canada and was super disappointing. 

Was it me? Or was that battle royal really heel heavy? Like, they kind foreshadowed the Martin turn because I figured there was no way they were going to set up MJF against another heel for next week and the faces were just turfed out of the ring in a real hurry.

Hayter-Riho was awesome. There were a couple times I genuinely thought Hayter had murdered Riho (And once when I thought Riho had murdered Hayter). How impressive was that when Riho came up short and Hayter basically dropped her but still kind of lifted her up from the ground and slammed her into the post?!

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Given his initial reaction, I feel like Punk went out there with two loose frameworks of what to say, depending on what the crowd did. He got slightly more boos and we ended up with 15 minutes of hockey talk.

Also, let's put a fine point on this: Taz' big tease, his nuclear option of retaliation after Dante burned him ... was to have Hook wrestle Fuego on Friday.

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