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December 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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18 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

They sort of did, but it’s kinda a proven failure.

-Doink

-Sin Cara

- Maybe also Razor & Diesel

 

Kane worked  out pretty well for them, but that definitely feels like the exception that proves the rule.

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D'oh, I misread your post and thought you were talking about masked wrestlers and not guys replacing guys in gimmicks.  It's been a long day.

Outside of, like, Tiger Mask has there been a successful example of a guy taking over an existing gimmick?

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19 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

They sort of did, but it’s kinda a proven failure.

-Doink

-Sin Cara

- Maybe also Razor & Diesel

 

1 minute ago, Zimbra said:

Kane worked  out pretty well for them, but that definitely feels like the exception that proves the rule.

To me, I  do count it in the "it's our IP, we can do what we want" category especially since Prichard still stands by that and the dispute where WCW personnel referred to Hall and Nash as their WWF characters. However to me, with guys you can clearly tell it's not them such as Fake Taker aka Primetime Brian Lee and Nise Razor & Diesel, it's automatically DOA because the fans wouldn't accept any imposters. I think people kinda get it messed by saying Glen Jacobs is a better worker than Nash. Yeah of course, but it didn't matter because fans knew he wasn't the original guy playing the character and WWF was trying to pull one over them. I can even see them trying to replace Hall with Bogner cause he was coming off a run in Japan and was a big guy, but he wouldn't have made even if he was good in the ring and looked more like Hall. As much as the WWF people made it about IP, Hall and Nash took those characters with them when they went to WCW because they were those characters for 4 and 3 years respectively. It was nothing the WWF could do about it.

God bless Ray Apollo, but he was an atrocious Doink especially coming after Borne. IMO That was worse than the Razor and Diesel thing just because they let him be that bad for almost two years before they finally pulled the plug. The other one lasted for about 3 months, and they quietly swept it under the rug with them just randomly appearing in the Rumble match in 1997 and never appearing ever again.

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I say we all pitch in and hold AEW viewing parties here.

Quote

Vince McMahon’s mansion in Greenwich, Connecticut has been put up for sale.

A listing for the house, listed at 16 Hurlingham Drive, has been seen on the website Compass with the asking price of $32 million dollars.

“Perched on 10 waterfront acres of lush grounds and mature landscaping, this architectural masterpiece is unrivaled in the juxtaposed design of hand-cut stone and modern design," the description of the house reads. "A custom estate with unmatched luxury offering a lifestyle of comfort, sophistication, and security. Beautiful and private Converse Lake, in the coveted Conyers Farm. A quintessential country and equestrian setting for the person looking for privacy within close proximity to Manhattan. An immense amount of natural light pours through the steel-framed windows to facilitate open views of the water and grounds. A grand 'great room' for entertaining and access to the invisible edge pool with spa and radiant heat terracing. A true labor of love has been seen in every detail to accommodate today's expectations.”

 

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39 minutes ago, Zimbra said:

D'oh, I misread your post and thought you were talking about masked wrestlers and not guys replacing guys in gimmicks.  It's been a long day.

Outside of, like, Tiger Mask has there been a successful example of a guy taking over an existing gimmick?

There are several examples, but how many of them outright better than the original? I don't think any of the people who were Tiger Mask after Sayama had the profound effect on wrestling in that gimmick other than Sayama. 

I mean there were like 25 people who were Lord Humongous including Sid, but the most popular version I believe is Jeff Van Camp. The original one was played by local Memphis football star Mike Stark for like 2 or 3 months before being replaced by Van Camp.

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10 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

There are several examples, but how many of them outright better than the original? I don't think any of the people who were Tiger Mask after Sayama had the profound effect on wrestling in that gimmick other than Sayama. 

I mean there were like 25 people who were Lord Humongous including Sid, but the most popular version I believe is Jeff Van Camp. The original one was played by local Memphis football star Mike Stark for like 2 or 3 months before being replaced by Van Camp.

Mr. Wrestling II? EDIT: On second thought, doesn’t count as he and Wrestling I were clearly presented as separate acts, so that’s more a Lucia successor type situation. Ignore.

Edited by For Great Justice
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La ParkAAA pretty much is the gold standard of successful replacements. 

I don’t believe anybody has ever come close. 

Maybe Dragon Lee? But that was a temp gimmick passed on from rookie to rookie. I don’t believe the current Dragon Lee was even supposed to be that gimmick forever. He just popped too much under that mask that he broke out better than his brother did with that gimmick.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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On 12/24/2021 at 1:24 PM, Octopus said:

What’s the greatest match you’ve seen live?

WWE Super Showdown in Melbourne.

Daniel Bryan vs The Miz.

My wife is a very, very casual fan but had been watching all the Bella's stuff, Total Divas, etc.

She followed them all on Twitter & Instagram and this was the only match she really wanted to see.

So they come to the ring, the bell sounds the start of the match and 20 seconds later Bryan has won it with a small package.

She was pissed! I laughed my ass off.

 

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Wasn't Sin Cara 2 a better Sin Cara than the original?

And ironically, Mistico 2 was a bigger star that the original Mistico, but that was two guys getting the same gimmick independently of one another, not one replacing the other.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

Wasn't Sin Cara 2 a better Sin Cara than the original?

And ironically, Mistico 2 was a bigger star that the original Mistico, but that was two guys getting the same gimmick independently of one another, not one replacing the other.

But Sin Cara II wasn’t really a success compared to the first Sin Cara. He basically just existed. He did have that thing with the soccer star, but him falling into obscurity following his post WWE run basically shows his lack of relevance to Mexican popular culture. Like he was just propped up by WWE’s PR team using connections to sneak him into major media articles.

Good-ish worker, who sucked as a flying tecnico luchador. I honestly think he’s fucking delusional about his in-ring ability. His maskless run proved how much better he was working a grounded style.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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8 hours ago, L_W_P said:

WWE Super Showdown in Melbourne.

Daniel Bryan vs The Miz.

My wife is a very, very casual fan but had been watching all the Bella's stuff, Total Divas, etc.

She followed them all on Twitter & Instagram and this was the only match she really wanted to see.

So they come to the ring, the bell sounds the start of the match and 20 seconds later Bryan has won it with a small package.

She was pissed! I laughed my ass off.

 

This made me chuckle. That's Daniel Mr. Small Package Bryan!

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What's the worst match you've ever seen live? I've probably seen more stinkers than good matches as I've gone to Uncensored 2000, some dreadful early 90s WCW house shows and a couple of ECW shows in the late 90s after they lost a bunch of guys to WCW/WWF. Off the top of my head the worst matches I've seen are the Hogan/Flair YAPAIPAPAIAPAPAPAPPIII Strap match, Brian Adams/Scott Norton vs. Jerry Flynn/Fit Finlay at Starrcade 1998 and an awful Steve Corino/Tommy Dreamer comedy match from an ECW house show in 1998 or 99. The whole thing went on for like 40 fucking  minutes as Corino was doing his old school interview schtick forever and Dreamer interrupted and they went back and forth on the mic. It was mostly just Dreamer shitting on WCW and WWF for what felt like 20 minutes. Then they had a boring ass match. They had to have just been filling time to cover for the lack of bodies to fill out the show. RVD and Spike Dudley was the main event so that should tell you the level of talent that was there.

Edited by cwoy2j
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The best matches I’ve seen live happened in 2021. It’s tough to decide on which, though. The worst one I saw live was HHH Vs. HBK 3 Stages of Hell. What a rush job of a match. It was like the equivalent of a mediocre MSG main event from the 80’s, but instead of one, you got three of them.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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On 12/23/2021 at 8:24 PM, Octopus said:

What’s the greatest match you’ve seen live?

Tie

Cactus Jack vs Sting Beach Blast 92-Best graduation gift I got was tickets to this PPV

Steve Anthony vs Apoc for the BIW Southern heavyweight title-Happened this year in January,ended an almost 3 year long feud. IF Apoc lost he had to retire from BIW,if Steve lost he lost his title and had to get his head shaved. The Pop when APOC won was so loud!

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Worst match I saw live was probably a Big Boss Man/Nailz cage match at a house show, although since I was a huge Boss Man fan I was pretty into it as a kid.

Tank Abbott/Vampiro was also the drizzling shits, but at least it was short.

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1 hour ago, cwoy2j said:

What's the worst match you've ever seen live? I've probably seen more stinkers than good matches as I've gone to Uncensored 2000, some dreadful early 90s WCW house shows and a couple of ECW shows in the late 90s after they lost a bunch of guys to WCW/WWF. Off the top of my head the worst matches I've seen are the Hogan/Flair YAPAIPAPAIAPAPAPAPPIII Strap match, Brian Adams/Scott Norton vs. Jerry Flynn/Fit Finlay at Starrcade 1998 and an awful Steve Corino/Tommy Dreamer comedy match from an ECW house show in 1998 or 99. The whole thing went on for like 40 fucking  minutes as Corino was doing his old school interview schtick forever and Dreamer interrupted and they went back and forth on the mic. It was mostly just Dreamer shitting on WCW and WWF for what felt like 20 minutes. Then they had a boring ass match. They had to have just been filling time to cover for the lack of bodies to fill out the show. RVD and Spike Dudley was the main event so that should tell you the level of talent that was there.

Gonna divide it up to indies and other.

 

Indies-Jess E Dalton vs Ashton Spears Battlezone in Columbia MS.

Jess E is so out of shape he was sucking wind from just walking to the ring. Less than 2 minutes into the match he told Ashton loudly "GO HOME I CANT BREATHE!" and the match  went on another 10 minutes.

 

Other-I remember a really bad 2 cool vs some no names match from a Raw I hit up a long time ago.

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1 hour ago, cwoy2j said:

What's the worst match you've ever seen live? I've probably seen more stinkers than good matches as I've gone to Uncensored 2000, some dreadful early 90s WCW house shows and a couple of ECW shows in the late 90s after they lost a bunch of guys to WCW/WWF. Off the top of my head the worst matches I've seen are the Hogan/Flair YAPAIPAPAIAPAPAPAPPIII Strap match, Brian Adams/Scott Norton vs. Jerry Flynn/Fit Finlay at Starrcade 1998 and an awful Steve Corino/Tommy Dreamer comedy match from an ECW house show in 1998 or 99. The whole thing went on for like 40 fucking  minutes as Corino was doing his old school interview schtick forever and Dreamer interrupted and they went back and forth on the mic. It was mostly just Dreamer shitting on WCW and WWF for what felt like 20 minutes. Then they had a boring ass match. They had to have just been filling time to cover for the lack of bodies to fill out the show. RVD and Spike Dudley was the main event so that should tell you the level of talent that was there.

My three favourite terrible matches I've seen live:

WCW: Lance Storm vs Mike Awesome. Easy thing to book, have Awesome beat up Storm then Team Canada cheat to win, Storm would get cheered regardless as it was in Canada. Instead it was some mess with Ernest Miller refereeing even though he was the face commissioner trying to mess with the de-facto face Storm. The main even was Godlberg giving Midajah a Jackhammer backstage through a table that we couldn't even see from our seats.

WWE: Vince McMahon vs Brock Lesnar (Steel Cage Match) This was absolutely hilarious in person as the audience was sure they were going to get Lesnar demolishing Vince, only for it to be an angle for Lesnar to turn on Angle. People were FURIOUS.

Indy: Probably the one ECCW battle royal where someone got hurt the night before and someone else didn't make it. So the card was shortened to 6 matches, with wrestlers obviously pulling double-duty under masks without even trying to hide it and someone forgot to bring the music so nearly everyone came out to "Rock n Roll All Night" by Kiss which was really funny when the music would stop, then start from the beginning again for the opponent. Main Event was a battle royal with all the same wrestlers who had previously wrestled (I think it was a 7 man battle royal). I think they continued to play "Rock n Roll All Night" through the match, too. Local favourite Juggernaut who was a big 400 lb hardcore guy, stood in the corner chatting to one of his opponents instead of doing something, another wrestler came up behind him and hit him in the back with a double-axehandle type-of strike and instead of selling it, he turned around and yelled at the guy for disrupting his conversation, he then walked over to the ropes, stepped over and eliminated himself and just left. It was honestly one of the funniest things I've seen, but did feel like a waste of $20

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