December 2021 Wrestling Discussion

[SirSmUgly]

2 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

The death of the house show saddens me because every so often, you get one of those. I saw a really good Styles/Rollins/Ambrose triple threat at a random house show in a less-than-full building, and they went hard as hell.

The lack of commercial breaks or playing to the hard camera was great.

Bonus: They'd worked each other a whole bunch by then and basically had a tag match that was a Southern tag with lots of go-go-go pacing. I've been to lots of shows at this point, but that has to be the best thing I've ever seen live. It was better than either of their Takeover matches, easily.

[The Natural]

6 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Sting not going over soured me on the whole thing, and it made no sense that the NWO would have Sting's back, but I remember thinking the match itself was alright at the time. In retrospect, the smoke and mirrors were completely unnecessary because Sting has had better matches since then, make of that what you will. And on a side note, Sting's latest run, not just it's existence but it's actual quality, has been one of the most awesome surprises ever in wrestling. They tore it up last night. I answered with Danielson vs Omega before, but that Sting/Darby vs FTR from the same show is definitely up there for me.

I agree with all you say. Sting/Darby Allin vs. #FTR at AEW Dynamite Grand Slam is my favourite Sting/Darby Allin tag team match. Sting surprised a lot of people, myself included when he wrestled this year. Such a contrast to the WWE run.

[cwoy2j]

6 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

The death of the house show saddens me because every so often, you get one of those. I saw a really good Styles/Rollins/Ambrose triple threat at a random house show in a less-than-full building, and they went hard as hell.

I got to see a pretty awesome Shield/Wyatt family match back in 2014 at a house show here in Charlottesville. I'd never seen Ambrose play face in peril and I remember being blown away at how good he was at it and how great Reigns was as a hot tag guy. Looking back, I'm guessing I saw an early test run for that great 6 man they had a couple of ppvs after this.

[Casey]

7 hours ago, The Natural said:

Speaking of Triple H, he has the most hit and miss WrestleMania record ever for match quality:

Hits:

• Triple H vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania X-Seven, WrestleMania XXVII and WrestleMania XXVIII. Gave ***** to the last one.

I would add these two matches to the "misses" list, for me. Actually - controversial opinion incoming - the two matches against HBK and Triple H might be my least favorites of Undertaker's from the 2010s. I'd rate the Punk and Lesnar matches above them, but it's all subjective anyway.

As for the misses - I'd have to go back and watch some of them, but I'm also one of those weird guys who actually liked some of Triple H's stuff from the mid 2000s (like the Kevin Nash HIAC match).

Fun fact: I've never seen one match from WrestleMania X8. Not even Hogan/Rock.

 

[Sublime]

You’re not really missing anything never watching X8. Flair/Taker is the best match in the card and other than DDP/Christian everything else is forgettable (even Rock/Hogan other than the crowd reaction and a few bits of the match I guess)

[Casey]

Yeah people always talk up the Hogan/Rock and Flair/Undertaker matches, but I'm just over here like... eh, I don't need to see old (even for 2002) guys like Flair, Undertaker and Hogan work matches at their marquee event. Kind of seems like that 'Mania was the breeding ground for what we have these days with WWE's WrestleMania, where "legends" come back for matches.

I mean, Edge, right now, is only 5 years younger than Ric Flair was for that Undertaker match.

[JohnnyJ]

14 hours ago, Octopus said:

What’s the greatest match you’ve seen live?

Danielson v. Morishima-Manhattan Mayhem or Punk v. Taker at Mania. 

 

[Infinit]

15 hours ago, Octopus said:

What’s the greatest match you’ve seen live?

Either Flair/HBK from Mania 24 or DIY/Revival from Takeover Toronto.

[Casey]

DDP vs Jeff Jarrett from Superbrawl Revenge.

Hey man, fuck off, I was 11.

[Shartnado]

Let's see, I have witnessed not that many matches live, but Rey & Edge vs Benoit & Angle, AJ Styles vs Jonny Storm, Shane Douglas vs Steve Corino and British Strong Style vs War Machine & Jeff Cobb would probably be the only realistic possibilities.

[Zimbra]

14 hours ago, JLowe said:

I hated that Rey went back to masked. That’s not how it works, if you want to wrestle masked again you change names/gimmicks and move back down the card.

You know, I actually would have been OK if he only wore it in the WWE or even just in the US.  But even as someone who isn't invested in lucha wearing the mask again in Mexico just feels wrong.

[odessasteps]

He went from being Rey Mysterio Jr to Rey Misterio. Simple. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I fucking hate when Dr Wagner Jr. wears his mask for 90% of his matches. Well he lost both his mask, and hair, and his kids getting better. So whatever he wants to do at this point I guess, especially now that he’s out of his prime. I still don’t like it.

Edited December 24, 2021 by LoneWolf&Subs

[twiztor]

U.S. pro wrestling needs more masked grapplers. how has this still not taken off?

also, Jushin Liger and Psychosis should have faced off before Nicho lost his mask. 2 of my favorite masks.

[AxB]

I would argue that in America, masked wrestlers (with the exception of Rey Mysterio jr) really peaked in the territory era, before Vince went national. The Destroyer and Mr Wrestling's 1 and 2 and that. Became more niche after that, or a side character for someone who also wrestles unmasked as well.

[Horangi]

19 hours ago, Octopus said:

What’s the greatest match you’ve seen live?

Probably Okada vs Ibushi at night 1 of Wrestle Kingdom 2020.

My first Aussie show had a batshit crazy three way with Ospreay/Robbie Eagles/Adam Brooks that is right up there as I had no idea what to expect from Brooksy and Robbie being my first local live show.

[Log]

19 hours ago, Octopus said:

What’s the greatest match you’ve seen live?

I was at the first Hell in a Cell.

I was also at Starcade 96 and saw that Mysterio/Liger match live. 

I was at the ROH show where Danielson faced Tyler Black for the first time and it put Black on the map. 
 

Oh, and I saw a Mitch Ryder/Todd Morton match at the second XCW Midwest show that I just loved. I was shooting the match for a news story and they basically worked it for my camera. It was a blast. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Log

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

I would argue that in America, masked wrestlers (with the exception of Rey Mysterio jr) really peaked in the territory era, before Vince went national. The Destroyer and Mr Wrestling's 1 and 2 and that. Became more niche after that, or a side character for someone who also wrestles unmasked as well.

I once heard that MSG has a no masks policy back in the 50's and 60's. That probably an impact on Vince and lead to less and less masked wrestlers as WWF became the standard bearer.

As for best match withnessed live HHH v Austin at a house show in rosemeont after Austin had won the Title off HBK and HHH held the eurobelt. (ever other night was Austin v Rock, they where probably trying to figure out who to push between HHH and Rock). Not much in the match other than a crown brawling spot and Hunter eating about 15 clotheslines in a row. but it was a blast

[odessasteps]

Vince prob seeing masked wrestlers as “too southern rasslin.” 
 

in the expansion era, you had the killer bees who used the masks as a rib and the blue blazer, who was treated as a JTTS realistically. And then jobbers like the Conquistadors, MrX and so on. 

[(BP)]

You’d think that masked characters that WWE owned the IP on and could recast as necessary would be a part of their “the brand is bigger than any star,” strategy. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

They sort of did, but it’s kinda a proven failure.

-Doink

-Sin Cara

- Maybe also Razor & Diesel

 

[Zimbra]

18 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

They sort of did, but it’s kinda a proven failure.

-Doink

-Sin Cara

- Maybe also Razor & Diesel

 

Kane worked  out pretty well for them, but that definitely feels like the exception that proves the rule.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Yeah, true the first Kane replacement worked. The second one failed. Kerry’s Warrior I guess was a success.

[Zimbra]

D'oh, I misread your post and thought you were talking about masked wrestlers and not guys replacing guys in gimmicks.  It's been a long day.

Outside of, like, Tiger Mask has there been a successful example of a guy taking over an existing gimmick?

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

They sort of did, but it’s kinda a proven failure.

-Doink

-Sin Cara

- Maybe also Razor & Diesel

 

1 minute ago, Zimbra said:

Kane worked  out pretty well for them, but that definitely feels like the exception that proves the rule.

To me, I  do count it in the "it's our IP, we can do what we want" category especially since Prichard still stands by that and the dispute where WCW personnel referred to Hall and Nash as their WWF characters. However to me, with guys you can clearly tell it's not them such as Fake Taker aka Primetime Brian Lee and Nise Razor & Diesel, it's automatically DOA because the fans wouldn't accept any imposters. I think people kinda get it messed by saying Glen Jacobs is a better worker than Nash. Yeah of course, but it didn't matter because fans knew he wasn't the original guy playing the character and WWF was trying to pull one over them. I can even see them trying to replace Hall with Bogner cause he was coming off a run in Japan and was a big guy, but he wouldn't have made even if he was good in the ring and looked more like Hall. As much as the WWF people made it about IP, Hall and Nash took those characters with them when they went to WCW because they were those characters for 4 and 3 years respectively. It was nothing the WWF could do about it.

God bless Ray Apollo, but he was an atrocious Doink especially coming after Borne. IMO That was worse than the Razor and Diesel thing just because they let him be that bad for almost two years before they finally pulled the plug. The other one lasted for about 3 months, and they quietly swept it under the rug with them just randomly appearing in the Rumble match in 1997 and never appearing ever again.