WEDNESDAY Night Dynamite - 6/30/2021

[DangerMark]

I don't know if anyone actually needs another white boy's thoughts on this, but it's a message board, what else is it for? 

I don't think that JR is racist, and I think that saying that he is racist isn't really helpful. Most of the people in this thread who criticising him aren't calling him racist, just saying that maybe he wants to think a little harder before he opens his mouth because some of his comparisons don't really scan, apart from That One Thing they've got in common and that maybe he should listen to why people don't like that so much these days. 

That said, comparing Sammy Guevara to like, Jack Evans or Ricochet would wreck his "it was better in the 80's" gimmick. 

Also, put me down for "the Excalibur thing is so different that I don't even know why we're talking about it. 

[John E. Dynamite]

17 minutes ago, A_K said:

Yup. The internet at its insidious worst.

You've missed out on a lot of the internet.

[Casey]

[HarryArchieGus]

22 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I disagree, at least to the extent that AEW wouldn't have landed the TNT deal without Jim Ross. Speaking in past tense here. He was, above even Jericho, the number one name TK put out there that got the network excited. JR is a catalyst for Dynamite even being a thing. Without him on board TNT doesn't bite. Without TNT, AEW doesn't get locked in as a real and credible promotion. So I understand your point but you're not understanding the business side of the coin. People that don't watch wrestling make the big decisions. TNT wanted JR. TNT got JR. No JR, no TNT. That's not me throwing out a theory. That's all stuff that has been reported and verified.

Going forward tho, yes I agree. As long as it doesn't upset the network. They need to find a tasteful and respectful way to phase him out.

 

I am so on board with a two man booth. There's a dynamic and a rhythm that comes with a two man team I just enjoy. Gorilla and Bobby doing their back and forth. Jesse pestering Vince. Even Nitro was best when it was Tony & Bobby in one hour and Bischoff & Zybysko in the other hour or whatever. What's old is new again. I'd have Dynamite be Excalibur & Tony as the regular team. But still work in Taz for the strong style matches (I think he added in a ton for the MMA fight). I'd add in Callis for The Elite Matches. I'd add JR in on Hoss fights.

I'd have Rampage be JR & Taz with the same join in Dynamic, at least until JR's contract was up. Schiavonne on old school shit. Excalibur on new school shit. I'd also sign Veda Scott and get her to join in as the women's wrestling expert on both shows. So primarily a two man booth with a third one working in for added emphasis sometimes would be my preference.

I'm aware that Jim Ross was a name for the launch, but curious to know more about AEW only getting on TNT because of Good Ole JR?  Is there an article/info source you could share?  This certainly makes further sense to the latitude they've shown him while he stumbles around and buries portions of the product.      

I fully support the remove JR from the desk campaign, but I am very doubtful it's happening.  That said, they did just show an Eddie Kingston post show promo about 'listening to the fans'.  If this is remotely true, and I think it is, perhaps they could at the very least get Jim to stop complaining about the product on the air.  Y'know, stop being unprofessional.  I'm sure they'll also be limiting his 'big sells'.  

Edited July 2, 2021 by HarryArchieGus

[Wyld Samurai]

10 hours ago, Big Z said:

Yes, Gino Hernandez was very well featured on the first part of the World Class set from the 80's project here and is very well known amongst older wrestling fans. Guevara is basically the opposite of him, great in the ring, but mediocre on the mic (whereas Gino was an excellent promo/character, but so-so as a worker). 

I actually see the comparison. They're both young lady killers of latin descent from Texas. Sammy is also quite passable on the mic... Much moreso than Jungle Boy. He's #4 in the Inner Circle... But he's also the baby of the group so his mic skills will be coming around.

Comparing wrestlers/athletes isn't always a direct correlation of abilities. It's also the feel you get. When Dynamite first debuted they were hyping Sammy as a young Eddy... Now it's Gino. 

[A_K]

7 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

You've missed out on a lot of the internet.

I mean, a bunch of anons indulging in herd-talk covertly implying a total stranger of being a racist misogynistic pervert based on a few vague comments is pretty high up there, but yeah, we could probably get right in the reeds and find worse if we tried, you’re right 

Edited July 2, 2021 by A_K

[John E. Dynamite]

1 hour ago, Wyld Samurai said:

I actually see the comparison. They're both young lady killers of latin descent from Texas. Sammy is also quite passable on the mic... Much moreso than Jungle Boy. He's #4 in the Inner Circle... But he's also the baby of the group so his mic skills will be coming around.

Comparing wrestlers/athletes isn't always a direct correlation of abilities. It's also the feel you get. When Dynamite first debuted they were hyping Sammy as a young Eddy... Now it's Gino. 

There's such a fine line when it comes to these comparisons and unfortunately it takes a lot of knowledge and context to understand what JR tries to get at. This is why I discuss wrestling on DVDVR and not Twitter and Reddit.

Gino Hernandez and Sammy Guevara - Two preening prettyboy heat magnets from Texas, Gino from the Dallas area, Sammy from in Houston. Both are half-Latino. I don't think I've ever heard either speak Spanish. Both started wrestling around 17 or 18 and were understood to be prodigious. The only footage of Gino Hernandez is where he is 28 years or younger. Sammy turns 28 this month. It is a completely fair comparison. I would make it in a heartbeat if I were in JR's position, especially since enough of the AEW audience has watched Dark Side of the Ring. I wouldn't list off all those points, but I'd expect somebody to get what I mean.

On the matter of JR's other comparisons, do people ever take into consideration where JR used to work? He can't really compare people to WWE talent, so he goes back to his Crockett and Mid South days. On "The Brainbuster Scandal"; JR called/reffed/watched way more Dick Murdoch matches than Koko B. Ware - yes, Koko had a run with Watts in '86 but outside of that was entirely with Memphis or WWF. Murdoch was a Tri-State and MSW fixture. Also, Killer Karl Kox "invented" the brainbuster and taught it to Murdoch. I get that JR dropping the wrong names lacked some tact, but Jesus, some of these so-called flubs make complete sense.

Edited July 2, 2021 by John E. Dynamite

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, A_K said:

I mean, a bunch of anons indulging in herd-talk covertly implying a total stranger of being a racist misogynistic pervert based on a few vague comments is pretty high up there, but yeah, we could probably get right in the reeds and find worse if we tried, you’re right 

That's kinda disingenuous.  We have hours and hours of commentary, podcasts, social media posts, etc to go on.  But whatever.  You're also taking it way in the other direction.  There's middle ground between "Ross is a klansman and a rapist" and "Ross is a saint and you guys are demonizing him."

Let me take a step back.  I don't think Ross is some out and proud racist, ready to go storm the capitol with the Proud Boys or whatever.  I think he's a product of his time and geography, and the way men his age, at least unconsciously, dealt with other races.  

I don't think Ross is a misogynistic pervert who's cutting peepholes in the women's locker room wall.  I think, again, he's a product of his time and they way men his age dealt with women. 

People like Ross might say ignorant things about other races or women that were fine when he was young but are not okay now.    If your grandpa says things like that at  Thanksgiving, you shrug it off and say, "it's just grandpa, he's old, that's how it was, you can't do anything about it" and then you go get dessert and maybe a beer.   If the person saying those things is paid to be the voice of an entertainment company on live TV for 2+ hours per week, then it's an issue. 

If you're defending Jim Ross for commentary consisting of admittedly vague, take-it-how-you-will comments related to race or for straight up leering over women, that's your right.  I personally don't like it at all, especially in a company that I feel should be better than that, and I'll mention it in an online discussion if I want to because I like to vent about people being awful and maybe it'll enlighten somebody about shit you shouldn't be saying nowadays.  Peace, everybody, and have a great holiday weekend, I mean that.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Technico Support

[Guest Jimbo_Tsuruta]

I would enjoy AEW a might more if they put more thought into the commentary setup. Ross can sit through Dark, still cash a cheque and not stink up Dynamite if Tony is so invested in keeping him. JR's part of my rasslin nostalgia but he's a chore to listen to. And I bet Khan probably doesn't want to rock the boat and wants to be the "nice guy" promoter but if JR had uttered "AEW" on Raw, Vince would have blown a gasket and fired him on the spot. Damage limitation.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Jimbo_Tsuruta

[HarryArchieGus]

The ‘WWE Dynamite’ sell would be a shitty thing to fire somebody over if it was a first offence.  But is a cherry on top good reason  for somebody who has had 20 plus months of countless flubs and a salty unprofessional attitude towards the product.  It’s really incredible how selfish he’s been with his angry demeanour.  Seems clear from his announcing and his angry pod that Jim is suffering from the hand that life has dealt him.  He needs to put in some work to heal these wounds and one wonders if being a commentator/podcaster  in 2021 isn’t a hindrance more than a help.

Further, calling JR or anybody a racist over comparisons to other wrestlers is the kind of divisive and inconsiderate behaviour that makes things that much worse.  That said, his comparisons have become a calling card for him that nobody seems to be digging.  

Edited July 2, 2021 by HarryArchieGus

[Casey]

4 hours ago, A_K said:

I mean, a bunch of anons indulging in herd-talk covertly implying a total stranger of being a racist misogynistic pervert based on a few vague comments is pretty high up there, but yeah, we could probably get right in the reeds and find worse if we tried, you’re right 

the dude is constantly horny on his main so I don't see how you can't say he isn't a dirty old pervert.

[Bryan]

3 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

There's such a fine line when it comes to these comparisons and unfortunately it takes a lot of knowledge and context to understand what JR tries to get at. This is why I discuss wrestling on DVDVR and not Twitter and Reddit.

Gino Hernandez and Sammy Guevara - Two preening prettyboy heat magnets from Texas, Gino from the Dallas area, Sammy from in Houston. Both are half-Latino. I don't think I've ever heard either speak Spanish. Both started wrestling around 17 or 18 and were understood to be prodigious. The only footage of Gino Hernandez is where he is 28 years or younger. Sammy turns 28 this month. It is a completely fair comparison. I would make it in a heartbeat if I were in JR's position, especially since enough of the AEW audience has watched Dark Side of the Ring. I wouldn't list off all those points, but I'd expect somebody to get what I mean.

On the matter of JR's other comparisons, do people ever take into consideration where JR used to work? He can't really compare people to WWE talent, so he goes back to his Crockett and Mid South days. On "The Brainbuster Scandal"; JR called/reffed/watched way more Dick Murdoch matches than Koko B. Ware - yes, Koko had a run with Watts in '86 but outside of that was entirely with Memphis or WWF. Murdoch was a Tri-State and MSW fixture. Also, Killer Karl Kox "invented" the brainbuster and taught it to Murdoch. I get that JR dropping the wrong names lacked some tact, but Jesus, some of these so-called flubs make complete sense.

Wow, that’s a lot of good information I didn’t know, thanks for sharing!

And bolsters my view that a portion of the AEW audience actively seeks out things to get upset by when it comes to JR.

[Log]

Let me set one thing straight.  I'm not trying to say Ross is a racist.  He has, however, said some fairly racist things.  There is a difference.  The issue is that us whites don't often realize we're doing it.  It's things like the aforementioned "he's so articulate", it's things like the nice old lady asking to touch a black woman's hair.  Racism isn't just putting on a white hood and screaming hateful words at people.  Sometimes it's ignorance.  I, no doubt, have probably been guilty of it at some point in my life.  I'm more aware of those things now.  As it has been brought up, Ross was raised in a different time in a place that, most likely, had very little racial sensitivity.  Hell, based on that, he's probably a million times more tolerant than most men raised where/when he was.  My point with him is, he needs to do better.  Kahn or whoever needs to bring this up with him.  He may not like it.  Fine.  But it's 2021, and there are just things that you cannot say on television, especially when you are presented as the "voice" of a company.  

I also want to show you where I'm coming from on the "WWE Dynamite" flub.  I have brought this up a million time, and I'm sure you all are sick of hearing it, but I worked in tv news for many years.  I was a photographer/editor.  Just like on Wednesday, I had occasions where I worked very hard on something, was very proud of how it turned out, and then the on-air talent screwed something up and it took attention away from my work.  That video package was very well done and had several emotional moments in it.  Now, the only thing people are talking about is Ross' mistake.  Yes, it's a mistake, but when you are a highly-paid pro, that's not an excuse.  At the very least, instead of his little pissy twitter reply, Ross should have publicly apologized to the people responsible for that video.  He may have privately, and that's cool.  I can just tell you from experience, that it feels like shit when you've poured your heart and soul into something and someone else's carelessness ruins it.  That's especially true when it's someone who is MUCH higher up on the pay scale than you are, and therefore more is expected of them in regards to being professional.

I've written way too much on this subject already.  I know some of you just want to defend Ross and blame it all on "the internet".  That's not the case here.  I'm not on Twitter.  I haven't seen a single take on this from social media.  I'm telling you how I feel about it.  If you don't agree, that's fine.  I respect that.  Just stop with the witch hunt shit.  Downplay it all you like, but the fact of the matter is, Ross has made many, many noticeable on-air mistakes over the two years he's been in AEW.  They're paying him a lot to do his job, and he's not doing it well.

[Eoae]

11 minutes ago, Casey said:

the dude is constantly horny on his main so I don't see how you can't say he isn't a dirty old pervert.

Is he more creepy or less creepy than board favorite Mick Foley?

Mind you, I'm not defending JR.  He does come off as something of a lech.  Just wondering why Mick mostly gets a pass.  Based on the comments I've read about, I'd put my daughters in a room with JR before I'd let them near Mick.  

Edited July 2, 2021 by Eoae

[Log]

1 minute ago, Eoae said:

Is he more creepy or less creepy than board favorite Mick Foley?

Mind you, I'm not defending JR.  He does come off as something of a lech.  Just wondering why Mick mostly gets a pass.  Based on the comments I've read about, I'd put my daughters in a room JR before I'd let them near Mick.  

I don't think Mick gets a pass.  I've seen much discussion here about how creepy he was about Melina in one of his books.

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, HarryArchieGus said:

The ‘WWE Dynamite’ sell would be a shitty thing to fire somebody over if it was a first offence.  But is a cherry on top good reason  for somebody who has had 20 plus months of countless flubs and a salty unprofessional attitude towards the product.  It’s really incredible how selfish he’s been with his angry demeanour.  Seems clear from his announcing and his angry pod that Jim is suffering from the hand that life has dealt him.  He needs to put in some work to heal these wounds and one wonders if being a commentator/podcaster  in 2021 isn’t a hindrance more than a help.

Further, calling JR or anybody a racist over comparisons to other wrestlers is the kind of divisive and inconsiderate behaviour that makes things that much worse.  That said, his comparisons have become a calling card for him that nobody seems to be digging.  

If Tony Khan didn’t fire Joey Janela for being dangerous to work with (and looking physically pathetic), busting open and coming dangerously close to potentially injuring one of his top baby faces that he’s been grooming for the top spot since the beginning, right before a ppv; expecting him to fire JR for flubbing a line just seems like wishful thinking by his haters.

[Casey]

12 minutes ago, Eoae said:

Is he more creepy or less creepy than board favorite Mick Foley?

Mind you, I'm not defending JR.  He does come off as something of a lech.  Just wondering why Mick mostly gets a pass.  Based on the comments I've read about, I'd put my daughters in a room with JR before I'd let them near Mick.  

I don’t think Foley has taken creep pics of his house cleaner from behind and posted it on Twitter. But yeah, Foley doesn’t get a pass on this board from what I’ve observed either.

[AxB]

2 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Further, calling JR or anybody a racist over comparisons to other wrestlers is the kind of divisive and inconsiderate behaviour that makes things that much worse.  That said, his comparisons have become a calling card for him that nobody seems to be digging.  

May 6 2020:

Spoiler

 

21 September 2015:

Spoiler

 

May 29, 2018:

Spoiler

 

 

March 3rd 2020:

Spoiler

 

 

Comparing Black Wrestlers (or tag teams) to other Black Wrestlers (or tag teams, or celebrities) when all they have in common is being black, has always been racist. And acting like it's some new, unprecedented talking point that's suddenly coming from out of nowhere is ignorant at best.

[John E. Dynamite]

56 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Wow, that’s a lot of good information I didn’t know, thanks for sharing!

And bolsters my view that a portion of the AEW audience actively seeks out things to get upset by when it comes to JR.

 I want to be understood - The pervy uncle comments have absolutely no place on TV. The discussion around "articulate" = "can talk like a white person" has been going on for decades and every sports announcer in the world should have ten copies of that memo. JR's palpable misery regarding certain elements of the show buries AEW more than his legacy elevates it. I just don't believe anyone needs to actively misunderstand JR's retro remarks in order to criticize him. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by John E. Dynamite

[HarryArchieGus]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

I don’t think Foley has taken creep pics of his house cleaner from behind and posted it on Twitter. But yeah, Foley doesn’t get a pass on this board from what I’ve observed either.

Ha, wow, I keep hearing about JR's creepy twitter behaviour,  but this was the first I'd sought out in a search.  There oughtta be a Creepy JR thread to digest all his social media work.  

1 hour ago, AxB said:

May 6 2020:

  Hide contents

 

21 September 2015:

  Hide contents

 

May 29, 2018:

  Hide contents

 

 

March 3rd 2020:

  Hide contents

 

 

Comparing Black Wrestlers (or tag teams) to other Black Wrestlers (or tag teams, or celebrities) when all they have in common is being black, has always been racist. And acting like it's some new, unprecedented talking point that's suddenly coming from out of nowhere is ignorant at best.

It's hard to take too seriously a post with 'evidence' from twitter.  I was speaking only to JR and his comparisons.  I don't recall hearing Ross compare Hobbs to Butch Reed, but it's already been established in this thread that there was a bond between Reed and Hobbs to which I would have to assume Ross was aware of.  You've generalized a bunch of stuff here and that's 'generally' going to be a problem.  I wasn't speaking to Bradshaw's behaviour or a number of other talking points here.  But yeah, of course, it's problematic if you're basing your comparisons solely on race. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by HarryArchieGus

[AxB]

10 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

 It's hard to take too seriously a post with 'evidence' from twitter.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it, there. If I tell you comparing Black Wrestlers to other black wrestlers is racist and don't post evidence (not sure why you needed the inverted commas there), then you say I have no evidence. Or you pull out the thing about White people shouldn't lecture other white people on racism. So when I show you proof of the fact that it's a widespread longstanding issue, that African Americans have been talking about for years, it doesn't count because it's tweets. OK. I understand.

[HarryArchieGus]

9 minutes ago, AxB said:

You're trying to have your cake and eat it, there. If I tell you comparing Black Wrestlers to other black wrestlers is racist and don't post evidence (not sure why you needed the inverted commas there), then you say I have no evidence. Or you pull out the thing about White people shouldn't lecture other white people on racism. So when I show you proof of the fact that it's a widespread longstanding issue, that African Americans have been talking about for years, it doesn't count because it's tweets. OK. I understand.

Thank you! I was lost but now am found.  

[Eoae]

Have any wrestlers or office staff JR has worked with said anything about him making racist remarks?  Meltzer?  Tony Khan and the EVPs? 

[Technico Support]

One of the guys tweeting is AJ Gray, an African American wrestler.  Is his opinion on the matter not good enough?  Holy shit.  
 

I understand you can find tenuous connections between Sammy and Gino but there are so many better comparisons JR could have made and anyone who doesn’t see the comparison he did make exactly for what it was is just being willfully ignorant.

After we kill off “comparing wrestlers based primarily on race,” then we can go after “touting black wrestlers for their natural athleticism.”  Because that one has some deep roots in low key racist shit, too. 

[AxB]

The thing is, AEW has been going pretty hard on saying Private Party are like the Hardy Boys, which is... not exactly accurate (I can see saying that Marq Quen is like Jeff because of the rainbow hair and the freaky hangtime he gets, but Isiah Kassidy doesn't seem very Matt Hardy-ish to me), but it is comparing a black tag team to a team who aren't black.

Bear Country are like Doom.