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Double or Nothing III - 5/30/2021


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7 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

100% absolutely not. That's one thing I scratch my head about reading the AEW threads here. Everyone wants there to be all these title changes and all these reigns for their favorites. No. Keep the long reigns. Keep the titles important. There's only 3 men out of like 100 that can say they made it to the top of the AEW mountain. While not an apples to apples comparison, almost everyone in the upper card of WWE has made it to the top of the mountain. Ziggler is a former world champ. Jinder is a former world champ. Kofi. Miz. AJ. Strowman. Orton. Rollins. McIntyre. Finn. Owens. I'm sure a bunch more. So why is being world champion a big deal in WWE? Most of the guys there get at least 1 run.

Liken that to the 80s. Backlund, Sheik, Hogan, Andre (kinda), & Savage. That's it. Even NWA in the 80s only had Race, Tommy Rich, Dusty, Flair, Von Erich, Garvin, & Steamboat. WWE had 4/5 world champions in 10 years, NWA had 8. For fuck's sake the Universal title has only existed 4.75 years and has had 8 champions and 14 different reigns already. If you want to make stars you need to keep being a champion exclusive. Because then winning the title instantly means you're a star.

I mean that's how I view it at least. If you want to keep importance on the titles you can't change them as often as the other guy does. Like people are saying they aren't sure who should beat the Bucks now. Well good. Because they should keep the tag title for at least another year. Then whoever beats them is instantly made.

 

I could not possibly agree more. You (and the AEW booking committee or whatever) have my absolute 100 percent undying support on this matter. 

Folks online, and particularly on these boards here, tend to get angry and defensive whenever someone points out that they are suggesting that AEW should be more like WWE. (Generally, the counter-argument seems to be to point out several specific ways in which they are not suggesting that AEW be more like WWE).

So, it's with some trepidation that I say this: Asking for shorter title reigns so that all of our favourites can get a shot at wearing the belts is, very much so, suggesting that AEW book more like what we've gotten used to from WWE in the last 12-15 years specifically.

To quote Abraham Simpson: Oh! I ain't fer it. I'm agin it!

Rather, what I'm suggesting is that AEW book more like the late-80s -early-90s WWF that I grew up with ?Now that's good wrestlin'!

I'm kind of serious about that, though. Here's what I mean: Let's take Mr. Perfect for example. He had a good long reign as Intercontinental Champion but he never held the WWF World Heavyweight belt. But, he is remembered as a great, legendary, WWF wrestler. It would be insane to dispute that he was one of the very best late-80s to-early-90s guys in that promotion. We all loved him and we all remember him fondly and he didn't need a run with the WWF world title to earn that love and respect.

Tito Santana, Rick Rude, Ricky Steamboat, Jake the Snake... I'm sure everyone has a couple of favourite WWF wrestlers from the era who never held the world title. (You could make an argument the The Million Dollar Man held the belt from February 5th through 13th 1988... but his legacy as a great WWF heel is secure regardless). Hell, Roddy Piper never had a title run, and he never needed one to cement his legacy.

What I'm saying here is: It is absolutely not necessary for every wrestler we love to get their run as a world champion 

I also agree that epic reigns give the world title more meaning and value. Then, when a beloved upper mid card guy like Bret finally gets his shot, he's elevated to that Hogan/Flair/Savage level and absolutely made as a truly top guy forever. 

I'm not philosophically opposed to an occasional  surprise title change or shorter reign, but I am so, so glad that AEW has thus far managed to stay away from short-attention-span, hot-potato booking of their belts. It's one of my least favourite things about current pro wrestling, and booking longer and more meaningful reigns is something that AEW has definitely done right so far, in my opinion. 

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8 hours ago, AxB said:

So when you say "More fans than not", that's a survey size of one person (yourself) you're basing that off, yeah?

Nah, but if that helps you hug your tasseled pillow a little tighter, you can think that.

 

Sorry. That was salty. I've seen that sentiment a LOT on twitter, but I will grant you that it's entirely possible that through the algorithm I've flooded my TL with folks who feel the same (correct) way about the Bucks that I do. I still think what bothers me most is that they stood on even keel with two absolute carnivores. If they'd just absolutely cheated their asses off, even more than they did, and the referee had blatantly favored them even more than they did, then MAYBE it would be believable that they could just beat these guys. But for them to just pin Moxley and then be talking trash into the camera... that was bullshit. They should be crawling away thanking their lucky stars that they didn't get stabbed to death. That's what I found so tone deaf and lame and why I think the Bucks are so un self-aware about how the audience sees them. They look like the fucking Mulkey Brothers and I'm supposed to believe they just walk away from a fight with those two guys? Fuck that.

Edited by just drew
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7 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I wonder what was actually in the bag. Roll of tube socks? Jake's laundry? They should have gimmicked the bag with a blood pack to really freak people out. Bad idea probably, but I'm a sicko.

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The ringer can't look empty

8 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Short reigns, fluke reigns, and flip flops all ought to occur at some point so that they're seen as legitimate possibilities. Not saying they ought be a majority or even extremely common. But being absolutist in not presenting them is handcuffing yourself and not contributing to the possibility that anything can happen.

When I was a kid I was always a fan of the mid card/jobber wrestlers in the WWF and got a huge kick out of Marty Janetty and the 123 Kid winning the tag titles from The Quebecers. Even though they only held the belts for a week it was still a cool thing and showed that ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN with any team or wrestler getting a lucky victory. A few years ago you had Samoa Joe winning the NXT title at a house show. Title changes like these shouldn't be the norm, but having them happen every once in a while keeps things interesting.

A few people talked about The Best Friends being the team to finally unseat the Bucks. I wouldn't really be on board with them winning the belts in an extended program, but they'd be perfect to get a fluke win on Dark or Elevation then drop them back on Dynamite the next week.

Edited by HumanChessgame
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20 minutes ago, just drew said:

Nah, but if that helps you hug your tasseled pillow a little tighter, you can think that.

 

Sorry. That was salty. I've seen that sentiment a LOT on twitter, but I will grant you that it's entirely possible that through the algorithm I've flooded my TL with folks who feel the same (correct) way about the Bucks that I do. I still think what bothers me most is that they stood on even keel with two absolute carnivores. If they'd just absolutely cheated their asses off, even more than they did, and the referee had blatantly favored them even more than they did, then MAYBE it would be believable that they could just beat these guys. But for them to just pin Moxley and then be talking trash into the camera... that was bullshit. They should be crawling away thanking their lucky stars that they didn't get stabbed to death. That's what I found so tone deaf and lame and why I think the Bucks are so un self-aware about how the audience sees them. They look like the fucking Mulkey Brothers and I'm supposed to believe they just walk away from a fight with those two guys? Fuck that.

I have no issue with the Bucks being on equal or even slightly superior footing to Mox/Eddie in a tag team match (and difference between Eddie/Mox and say Hangman/Kenny for kayfabe purposes is that Hangman and Kenny knew the Bucks inside and out from being part of The Elite/Bullet Club together). Eddie and Mox should win convincingly in singles matches against them, but it's excellent old school booking for a true team to be a step ahead of two great individuals forming a new-ish team. Also, from both a storyline and arguably real-life perspective, the Bucks are wrestling much smarter since going under the wing of Don Callis, while still maintaining their tremendous ability to quickly put moves together. Addressing the size/look point, size should not matter as wrestlers look convincing executing moves in the ring (and I'm someone that puts the Bucks on the Midnight Express level in that respect, just updated for 21st century). Also, the size difference between say the Bucks and Mox/Kingston and say Arn/Tully against the Road Warriors is negligible. Now, we are admittedly on different ends on the fan spectrum with The Elite (at least Kenny and The Bucks), but The Bucks have been long-term AEW MVP's in the ring, and their character work in now almost at as high of a level as their in-ring work.

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I appreciate the well thought out response. It just baffles me that some folks would say that size shouldn't matter. It shouldn't be the only thing that matters, but it absolutely should matter. I guess I'm in the minority. Here, anyway. I cannot for the life of me understand the appeal of the Bucks and Omega when there are guys like Adam Page, Archer, Jungle Boy, Lucha Bros, Guevara, Moxley, Kingston, P&P, and Best Friends all walking around without titles. This Elite "smarkier than you" stuff is grating and self-indulgent, but I'm not convinced it's character work. I think the EVP's really believe that them holding the belts is what's best for the company, and I have no idea how they came to that conclusion. 

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2 hours ago, just drew said:

I appreciate the well thought out response. It just baffles me that some folks would say that size shouldn't matter. It shouldn't be the only thing that matters, but it absolutely should matter. I guess I'm in the minority. Here, anyway. I cannot for the life of me understand the appeal of the Bucks and Omega when there are guys like Adam Page, Archer, Jungle Boy, Lucha Bros, Guevara, Moxley, Kingston, P&P, and Best Friends all walking around without titles. This Elite "smarkier than you" stuff is grating and self-indulgent, but I'm not convinced it's character work. I think the EVP's really believe that them holding the belts is what's best for the company, and I have no idea how they came to that conclusion. 

I've almost always been of the belief that skill matters most (with personal exceptions of Luger and to a lesser extent Sting). From Bret and Shawn in my early WWF watching days, to Benoit and Eddie and the cruiserweights in WCW (and Flair both then and now), to Punk and Bryan, to now guys like Omega and the Bucks. My love of wrestling was re-born from the great skill in New Japan and NXT during their strongest runs, and now AEW (which really has been the best of all worlds for me).

Edited by Big Z
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Count me into the group that thinks less reigns is more for the betterment of AEW. I also grew up in the era where being the WWF Champion meant something. 

The issue with current wrestling is that they have too many matches. I don't think they need to do Jungle Boy vs Omega until their summer supershow. I think they're wasting the build for JB by having his shot less than a week from DoN. That feels rushed... And then what are you going to do after that? 

It's also my gripe with Cody... He's doing this Nice Hogan with a Monster of the Month system... But where does Ogogo go now? 

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1 hour ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Count me into the group that thinks less reigns is more for the betterment of AEW. I also grew up in the era where being the WWF Champion meant something. 

The issue with current wrestling is that they have too many matches. I don't think they need to do Jungle Boy vs Omega until their summer supershow. I think they're wasting the build for JB by having his shot less than a week from DoN. That feels rushed... And then what are you going to do after that? 

It's also my gripe with Cody... He's doing this Nice Hogan with a Monster of the Month system... But where does Ogogo go now

Reminds me of poor Monty Brown who could've been big star for TNA. 

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Best PPV I have seen in a lot of years. I enjoyed everything except Homelander versus Union Jack. The crowd really accentuated the in-ring stuff. Acapella sing-song for Jungle Boy was a highlight. I like Lio Rush, but that was not the spot to introduce him. Britt/Tony moment was awesome. The crowd biting on the near-falls in the 3 way showed how well Orange, PAC, and Kenny complement each other. For me, as a fan for nearly 40 years at this point, the highlight for me was Sting's performance and All Ego's Bam Bam Bigelow homage. Just a great show. I know others have touched on it, but I am glad to see Mark Henry signed with AEW. I think he has a lot to offer as a mentor/coach, and he is just an all around quality human being (AEW is kind of getting famous for having those).  I hope Tony Khan's live action EWR simulation never ends. 

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RE title reigns - I’m not for a second suggesting they put a short reign on Jack Perry (they shouldn’t), but he has the quickness / agility to pull the narrative off if it’s a quick roll up pin / capitalising on a distraction etc. Perry 5”10, Omega just over 6”0 - there’s enough equivalency there to make a bout competitive. Competitive sports frequently have out of nowhere shocks (McGregor / Aldo OPKO; Andy Ruiz beating Joshua etc); it would be absolutely fine to replicate in this environment if it’s believable.

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I'm fine with short reigns being a few months if its a memorable couple of months loaded with content. I loathe "win the belt one weeks and lose it your next appearance" especially for a babyface as I think it kills the catharsis you get from the win before the fans can even enjoy it. Instead of enjoying the new title holder, you often get the rematch announced very quickly and everyone can sort of see the reset coming and it just deflates everything. This is especially true if your heel had the belt for an extended period and the crowd is ready for a change of focus and they don't get it.

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7 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Count me into the group that thinks less reigns is more for the betterment of AEW. I also grew up in the era where being the WWF Champion meant something. 

The issue with current wrestling is that they have too many matches. I don't think they need to do Jungle Boy vs Omega until their summer supershow. I think they're wasting the build for JB by having his shot less than a week from DoN. That feels rushed... And then what are you going to do after that? 

It's also my gripe with Cody... He's doing this Nice Hogan with a Monster of the Month system... But where does Ogogo go now? 

I think a month to really heat up Jungle Boy would be great. Put him over Gallows and Anderson in singles as Kenny scoffs at the idea of this punk kid beating him. Give JB a visual fall over Omega counted by Marko Stunt or something as a counter to a run in. Then have Kenny literally escape with the belt in the title match either from getting disqualified or something that is not going over JB clean.  You can then transition to Jurassic Express against the Good Brothers as a secondary tag feud and have Jungle Boy circle back to beat Omega after he's dropped the belt and get the rub there.

Ogogo had enough injuries brought up in that match with shoulders, ribs and being blind in one eye that they should be able to rebuild to a healthy Ogogo getting another shot at Cody. They could do a run up of training montages making Ogogo look even more ready. They would also need to hammer Ogogo over as either the unquestioned star of the Factory or get him away from them since QT doesn't seem capable of carrying his end as a second.  You then do the Rocky III build of Ogogo being a monster primed to kill and Cody being weakened by his multiple creative outlets weakening his focus.

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Depending on how it's done I generally like symphonies being added to songs.  It can give an epic feel to it all.  But adding it to Cody's makes it much more obnoxious and over the top.  Part of it is my dismay in how much Cody's ego gets in his own way and makes me think of course he'd add it.

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14 hours ago, HumanChessgame said:

A few people talked about The Best Friends being the team to finally unseat the Bucks. I wouldn't really be on board with them winning the belts in an extended program, but they'd be perfect to get a fluke win on Dark or Elevation then drop them back on Dynamite the next week.

No. What? Why?

Why are you booking a world tag title change on the enhancement show on You Tube??? No. That's a way to ensure the majority of the fans following your product DON'T see a big moment / important title change. Dark and Elevation are not the modern day WCW Saturday Night. They are the modern day Jacked & Metal. You don't book title matches for free on You Tube when Turner is paying you $40+ million a year.

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2 hours ago, Goodear said:

I think a month to really heat up Jungle Boy would be great. Put him over Gallows and Anderson in singles as Kenny scoffs at the idea of this punk kid beating him. Give JB a visual fall over Omega counted by Marko Stunt or something as a counter to a run in. Then have Kenny literally escape with the belt in the title match either from getting disqualified or something that is not going over JB clean.  You can then transition to Jurassic Express against the Good Brothers as a secondary tag feud and have Jungle Boy circle back to beat Omega after he's dropped the belt and get the rub there.

Ogogo had enough injuries brought up in that match with shoulders, ribs and being blind in one eye that they should be able to rebuild to a healthy Ogogo getting another shot at Cody. They could do a run up of training montages making Ogogo look even more ready. They would also need to hammer Ogogo over as either the unquestioned star of the Factory or get him away from them since QT doesn't seem capable of carrying his end as a second.  You then do the Rocky III build of Ogogo being a monster primed to kill and Cody being weakened by his multiple creative outlets weakening his focus.

All. Of. This.

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2 hours ago, The Natural said:

What you've all been waiting for. American Dream~!

I am legitimately surprised this didn't hit the second that "Memorial Day" video ended.  But they I remembered "lol Cody coming out first".

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Was the idea they were going for with Ogogo's bleeding that he could barely see because of the blood going into his right eye and the left eye being limited to only 22% vision? Is that why he was throwing those cheesy bad punches? I feel like he needed more blood for that to work. Cody overcomplicating something that should've been relatively straightforward is very much on brand though. I like complex storytelling but not with a guy in his first real match and not here. 

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