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AEW - APR 2021


The Natural

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I do see the point you're making @A_K.  You really can't compare me vs. McGregor to Brian Cage vs. Darby Allin.  In pro wrestling, it's presented as every worker (well, not every worker, but the guys who are mid-card on up) as being elite fighters.  You do have to assume that big elite fighter would beat little elite fighter most days.  I think there are exceptions, though.  Darby is an excellent one.  He's not going to fight Cage toe-to-toe.  He's going to throw himself around and generally try to confuse his bigger opponents.  I think Silver could work because it's been established that he's freakishly strong despite his height.  It's pro wrestling.  If it gets established, it can work.   

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Dynamite doesn't have the real estate to add/feature another division. Now if you positioned one of the web based shows around another title, that'd be interesting, but it wouldn't be one that pigeon-holes you into a particular size or gender. 

Like I'd be down with Elevation featuring a bunch of dudes chasing Ho Sung Pak for the Dragon Star or whatever.

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Okay. We can approach this in a couple of different ways.

A "Pure Sports Build" style (which AEW is unquestionably not) could support any number of weight divisions and push all of the champions as being on the same level. You do this by having no crossover between the divisions without explicitly having wrestlers drop or gain weight. You avoid the weight and size disparity issues in your narrative by precluding having guys interact. You lose in this scenario a lot of the fun of the diversity wrestling provides by restricting match making. So you can't have David and Goliath matches. You also cause issues with multi-man matches where the weights create a number of issues and restrictions.

A "Fantasy World Build" (I'm not disparaging this take, I'm just trying to give it a name) doesn't care about the reality of shapes and sizes. In this world, we can project into people whatever benefits or deficits we want. I usually use other works of fiction to describe this concept. Take Buffy The Vampire Slayer where Buffy is physically stronger than everyone around her because the fiction tells you this is the case. In this sort of build, we could say that Kris Statlander is the strongest being in the federation (because she's an alien). Rules still apply in The Fantasy World build but they should be consistent. You have to be careful that it doesn't push people out of sampling your product by being so out of the ordinary they can't overcome their cognitive dissonance.

In between these two extremes exist all of the wrestling companies we know about with lots of space between. 

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A story to put a pin in that could (I will emphasize COULD) impact AEW

It looks like the NHL's new secondary TV partner is TNT

Nothing official yet but obviously COULD impact AEW depending on the day(s) that the games would be shown (or might have no impact at all)

(And yes - as I said in the hockey thread - it is a entertaining piece of wrestling related irony there)

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2 hours ago, A_K said:

So the question then becomes what is the goal for someone like Silver? In a title-oriented promotion, there should always be a belt of prestige for anyone to challenge for.

Well from a kayfabe perspective his goal (and every wrestler in any promotion) is to be world champion. You're projecting you views and opinions as fact. There aren't any rules prohibiting him trying to be the world champion. The only limit for him is your perception. Not every guys is going to accomplish their goals from a kayfabe perspective. And that's okay. Because if everyone became champion, then it loses it's value. But just because the dude is short doesn't mean he can't be champion. That's what's cool about wrestling, anyone can get over and get the push if they get hot enough. It may never happen, but it could. Kofi Kingston is legit like 145 pounds. You think he could shoot beat up most guys in WWE? Nope. But he got hot as fuck, the company went with him and he became world champion. It's a work my man. This isn't UFC. And thank god for that because I can't get into a promotion that has 15 separate but equal "world" champions. F that nonsense.

The real world goal for Silver should be making as much money as possible. Something that his height has zero bearing on in the real world. Someone writing on a piece of paper saying Im the champion doesn't mean a whole lot in the real world. But you use that pen on some paper and put a dollar sign and a shit ton of zeroes and now we're talking lol.

And as an aside... Ever notice how AEW's world title doesn't even have a weight? It's the AEW World Championship, and anytime anyone uses the word heavyweight it's an error. No graphic or ring announcer has ever used the term heavyweight. And that's because weight classes in wrestling is an out-dated concept.

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20 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Well from a kayfabe perspective his goal (and every wrestler in any promotion) is to be world champion. You're projecting you views and opinions as fact. There aren't any rules prohibiting him trying to be the world champion. The only limit for him is your perception. Not every guys is going to accomplish their goals from a kayfabe perspective. And that's okay. Because if everyone became champion, then it loses it's value. But just because the dude is short doesn't mean he can't be champion. That's what's cool about wrestling, anyone can get over and get the push if they get hot enough. It may never happen, but it could. Kofi Kingston is legit like 145 pounds. You think he could shoot beat up most guys in WWE? Nope. But he got hot as fuck, the company went with him and he became world champion. It's a work my man. This isn't UFC. And thank god for that because I can't get into a promotion that has 15 separate but equal "world" champions. F that nonsense.

The real world goal for Silver should be making as much money as possible. Something that his height has zero bearing on in the real world. Someone writing on a piece of paper saying Im the champion doesn't mean a whole lot in the real world. But you use that pen on some paper and put a dollar sign and a shit ton of zeroes and now we're talking lol.

One of the weaknesses of some wrestling companies is their inability to move beyond titles as motivaters in of themselves. While I agree that everyone (barring like a mindless bezerker like Abadon or Abdullah the Butcher) should want to be champion, the reason to do that should vary from wrestler to wrestler and we should be explicit in those cases. Titles should excentuate the motivation, not be the motivation in of themselves. Here are some examples that would make my case...

Matt Hardy's character is about money, and champions earn more money.  If Matt wins a title, he should demonstrate aditional spending in order to show that the money is increasing with the belt in hand.

Kenny Omega's character is about self adulation and knowing he's the best performer.  The title validates his claims that he's the best. He should absolutely lose his mind when he loses the World Title.

Let's say John Silver's character motivation was about making Brody Lee pround and proving himself worthy of Lee's faith. A championship would do that.

I want the belt because I want the belt is shallow thinking.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Goodear said:

One of the weaknesses of some wrestling companies is their inability to move beyond titles as motivaters in of themselves. While I agree that everyone (barring like a mindless bezerker like Abadon or Abdullah the Butcher) should want to be champion, the reason to do that should vary from wrestler to wrestler and we should be explicit in those cases. Titles should excentuate the motivation, not be the motivation in of themselves. Here are some examples that would make my case...

Matt Hardy's character is about money, and champions earn more money.  If Matt wins a title, he should demonstrate aditional spending in order to show that the money is increasing with the belt in hand.

Kenny Omega's character is about self adulation and knowing he's the best performer.  The title validates his claims that he's the best. He should absolutely lose his mind when he loses the World Title.

Let's say John Silver's character motivation was about making Brody Lee pround and proving himself worthy of Lee's faith. A championship would do that.

I want the belt because I want the belt is shallow thinking.

 

 

Agree with you! In an authentically sports-driven environment the titles/belts should be the ultimate goal, and how the participant graduates (or doesn’t) to that level is driven by character. Sometimes the story of a talented but flawed athlete falling short of the top prize is as compelling as athletes who attain it.

Ngannou, Khabib, McGregor for example have all been champions, but coming from very different societies/continents each have their own unique motivation/drive to get there (coming from poverty, achieving greatness, familial inspiration etc.). Similarly there are examples of athletes who had the talent but perhaps not the mental equilibrium to achieve the top prize, which is interesting in itself. Great art intimates life greatly, and there is no reason PW should not strive for that rather than let itself be lessened by low expectations. To support the participants, you then need a variety of prizes/titles of varying esteem that each can realistically be believed to compete for. Unless they want an environment where people teleport around etc., which is fine in of itself, but a totally different track.

Edited by A_K
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19 minutes ago, A_K said:

To support the participants, you then need a variety of prizes/titles of varying esteem that each can realistically be believed to compete for.

Maybe I'm a bit slow to catch your point. But what is stated here already exists.

There *are* titles of varying esteem that exist. Tag Team, TNT, World. A ladder to climb. Your personal view of "realistically believed to compete for" is irrelevant tho because that's just your opinion. If you personally don't believe Silver can win the world title, does that mean we all have to believe that? Or that the company can't book that? Because I would buy into a Silver world title chase if it's booked well. But if you make 5 separate titles based on weight class I am not going to buy that Silver being world "middleweight" champion is equal to him being world "heavyweight" champion. There's 100 years of history in pro wrestling that defy that.

Anything less than heavyweight in a weight class system in wrestling, is automatically not as important. Sure MMA and specifically UFC have been able to embrace weight classes and that's great for them. But projecting that system onto wrestling just will not work. Hell no one buys into separate brand "world champions" as equals, and that doesn't even have a weight tied to it. How many people view the WWECW world title / NXT world title / NXT UK world title as equals to WWE World Title / WWE Universal Title / World Heavyweight Title in the WWE system? Now replace the brand letters with inferior (as booked in wrestling historically speaking) weight designations. You just can't erase 100 years of story telling and history.

I 100% agree with what @Goodearposted above. You should book different motivations and reactions for title wins based on character traits. But I'm very confused because you quoted his post and agreed with it. His post had nothing to do with adding separate weight classes or limiting who can vie for what titles.

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2 hours ago, Sex Machine Gun said:

2020-21 has really cemented the idea in my head that this will never come back, especially in light of that NHL news. It's a fucking tragedy. The sad part is that we all knew it long ago but refused to believe it.

The fuck are you talking about?

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2 hours ago, Sex Machine Gun said:

2020-21 has really cemented the idea in my head that this will never come back, especially in light of that NHL news. It's a fucking tragedy. The sad part is that we all knew it long ago but refused to believe it.

What in Tar-Nation of Domination are you going on about?

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1 hour ago, Goodear said:

Let's say John Silver's character motivation was about making Brody Lee pround and proving himself worthy of Lee's faith. A championship would do that.

Aw, man, I can totally see that happening when he eventually gets the TNT title.  Which I honestly think will happen one day for him and if they bring this up then I should just get some Kleenex before the match.

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7 hours ago, Technico Support said:

 Sorry, but the idea of weight classes in the U.S is done for.

Eh, I feel that weight classes in pro wrestling is a gimmick and has never been a real thing anyway.  The whole point of "cruiserweight" or "light heavyweight" titles is to showcase speed over power in order to put on matches with a really fast pace and more aerial spots.  It's also been the gateway for Lucha and smaller Puro guys to break into North American federations.

AEW has done a pretty good job of elevating titles and putting them in the hands of workers with varying builds and getting away from the so called WWE type.

Thanks to the gigantic roster, it has also done a really good job of booking smaller workers like Riho, Darby, Leyla Hirsch, and Jungle Boy as dangerous contenders in catchweight matches against larger opponents.  I don't think you want to do them the disservice of creating a Cruiserweight division for men (or a Women's Cruiserweight the ladies) and implying that the champion can only hack it against competition their own size.  That's the one danger of promoting a Cruiserweight division if you have not cultivated that subculture in your fan base.

Edited by J.T.
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What gets me is in WWE, Finn Balor is challenging Kross for the NXT title and Daniel Bryan is main eventing Mania challenging two heavyweights for their title.  I can’t even name their 205 champion but why aren’t Bryan and Balor in that guy’s division?  If the idea is your heavyweight titles are openweight, then do the work and tell us that instead of assuming your fans are morons who never ask such questions.  
 

Without a telling us a valid storyline reason for this, sub-205 guys challenging for the heavyweight title just puts across the message that they’re the real stars and  can’t be bothered slumming it with the guys in your 205 division, who are clearly jobbers.

 

 

Edited by Technico Support
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Just for the record - there is no longer a "205 Live Champion". That title became the NXT Cruiserweight Title

KUSIDA is the current holder

But yes it is always stupid when guys like Finn Balor and Daniel Bryan are fine for the main company titles but dudes "bigger" than them are only able to got for "cruiserweight/light heavyweight" titles

I mean at least in New Japan they go through the dog and pony show of guys saying they would "no longer be competing in that division"

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5 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Maybe I'm a bit slow to catch your point. But what is stated here already exists.

There *are* titles of varying esteem that exist. Tag Team, TNT, World. A ladder to climb. Your personal view of "realistically believed to compete for" is irrelevant tho because that's just your opinion. If you personally don't believe Silver can win the world title, does that mean we all have to believe that? Or that the company can't book that? Because I would buy into a Silver world title chase if it's booked well. But if you make 5 separate titles based on weight class I am not going to buy that Silver being world "middleweight" champion is equal to him being world "heavyweight" champion. There's 100 years of history in pro wrestling that defy that.

I mean yeah, if you believe in a 163 cm dude competing for the World Title is believable storytelling then absolutely more power to you. You’re right, it’s my opinion it is not. For context that’s a dude that Daniel Bryan of all people would have 6 inches on. So in my opinion it doesn’t exist, but if that makes a believable & marketable World title contender for you then to each their own. At that point it becomes more like a comic book than a pursuit of realism I feel, but perhaps that’s why some follow pro wrestling instead of boxing or MMA, say? I can’t speak for them, and if so fine, different tastes.

My note of agreement with Goodear was in that a character’s motivation should be reasonably anchored and manifest itself in reality and drive the pursuit towards titles/championships. Silver can want a title because it would make Brody proud, and that is sound character driven storytelling. To capitalise, there should the be a belt that Silver can sensibly win, otherwise the desire sounds foolhardy and is lesser for it. You believe a World Title pursuit can be believably booked - I do not. Therein lies the difference. The only way to stress test is to run the program and see impact on engagement/viewership.

A lot of your reticence seems anchored in lower weight being less important by definition. I don’t agree. Can be nonchalant about the fact that the UFC has cultivated as much importance (commercially more so, even) for their 145-160 division as their heavyweights, but it was not always the way. They cultivated that importance over time. It wasn’t an immediate success. Simply saying “this is how it was in the past” does not preclude evolution in the future.

 

Edited by A_K
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The Bucks and Kenny strongly voiced their opinions that weight divisions are archaic back when they were in NJPW. I don't think we'll ever have to worry about that shit in AEW, thankfully.

Nick Comoroto is the fucking man. His clothesline is filthy and he's doing the Goldberg press slam -> powerslam deal. I like it.

Leyla Hirsch background package/interview is great. She speaks well even without being charismatic. That's totally fine. Get her in Team Taz ASAP tho. She's kinda working with Ryo right now, so if she's gotta turn her back on Ryo to join Team Taz, that's cool with me. Instant feud to get her going.

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The beutification of JD Drake continues to be one of the funniest things on my television.  Mike Nemeth as Pygmalion trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and Cesar Bononi as the playa hater.

14 hours ago, Jiji said:

Leyla Hirsch background package/interview is great. She speaks well even without being charismatic. That's totally fine. Get her in Team Taz ASAP tho. She's kinda working with Ryo right now, so if she's gotta turn her back on Ryo to join Team Taz, that's cool with me. Instant feud to get her going.

I like Leyla as the plucky baby face and am hoping that Diamante actually hooks up with Team Taz and becomes their female representative.

Edited by J.T.
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