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Don't know how hot of a take this is but here goes. I HATE all cinematic matches. They all look like a bunch of hokey horseshit to me. If I want to watch a movie, I'll watch a goddamn movie.

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1 minute ago, cwoy2j said:

Tyler Bate kicking out at 1 from WALTER's powerbomb is the best highspot of the last 10 years.

I love this, because it was like I was Bate and WALTER was life. Life was also that clothesline that followed, however.

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21 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

Tyler Bate kicking out at 1 from WALTER's powerbomb is the best highspot of the last 10 years.

Ohhhh, here's where I come in I guess. I think Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne are two of the most overrated WWE wrestlers to come along in the last 5 years. I still hate that Takeover match they had in America, I forget which event it was. One of the Brooklyn shows, maybe? I rather watch a 40 minute over-acted Adam Cole match than Pete Dunne pretending to snap fingers and bullshit like that.

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I know there are those who like the Johnny Gargano vs. Adam Cole series of matches in NXT but I think those matches really suck. Overdeveloped, overlong and way OTT. I've done a top 20 Best NXT Matches Ever list and even if I expanded it, I wouldn't include them. Cole/Ciampa stank as well.

Edited by The Natural
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2 hours ago, Casey said:

Ohhhh, here's where I come in I guess. I think Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne are two of the most overrated WWE wrestlers to come along in the last 5 years. I still hate that Takeover match they had in America, I forget which event it was. One of the Brooklyn shows, maybe? I rather watch a 40 minute over-acted Adam Cole match than Pete Dunne pretending to snap fingers and bullshit like that.

NXT TakeOver: Chicago 2017.

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2 hours ago, Casey said:

Ohhhh, here's where I come in I guess. I think Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne are two of the most overrated WWE wrestlers to come along in the last 5 years. I still hate that Takeover match they had in America, I forget which event it was. One of the Brooklyn shows, maybe?

 

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Disclaimer first, this is only really based on ppv stuff as I haven’t followed main roster tv in years, plus I haven’t watched much WWE at all during the pandemic.

AJ’s WWE run has been underwhelming and his title runs, in particular, were pretty bad. Ambrose matches were unremarkable. Cena matches were my turn-your turn finishing runs stretched out to full matches. Owens, Nakamura and Joe series’ were disappointing. Even the Bryan matches were a bit forgettable.

Plus he looks like such a fucking dork with that stupid hair and chin strap beard (I don’t think this bit is a hot take though).

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1 hour ago, Kev said:

Plus he looks like such a fucking dork with that stupid hair and chin strap beard (I don’t think this bit is a hot take though).

I disagree. This looks cool AF:

Impact teased an appearance from AJ Styles, delivered Swoggle instead -  Cageside Seats

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Kenny Omega is not good. I do not like the high spot driven style he works. He is lucky that Cornette is such a piece of shit because he is spot on about Omega looking like a dork. Meltzer touts him and his buddies way too much.

That said, he has caught a break again by having Cody Rhodes in AEW. Cody sucks and I don't blame WWE for cutting him loose. The Hank Williams Jr of the Rhodes family. No talent and in love with himself.

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Cody's a solid mid/upper-mid card dude who presents and books himself as a main eventer.

AEW does not have a bloated roster, it's problem is thinking nearly every match has to go over 10 minutes and through at least one commercial break. 

Edited by christopher.annino
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10 hours ago, The Natural said:

Baron Corbin is way overpushed...but I like him. I have more tolerance for him than others.

I actually like Corbin and think he has gotten solid-good. Unfortunately, the overpush on him has killed most of my interest in actually watching him wrestle.

10 hours ago, The Natural said:

I know there are those who like the Johnny Gargano vs. Adam Cole series of matches in NXT but I think those matches really suck. Overdeveloped, overlong and way OTT. I've done a top 20 Best NXT Matches Ever list and even if I expanded it, I wouldn't include them. Cole/Ciampa stank as well.

I thought Cole/Ciampa started off well and then turned into Cole/Gargano as it went on. All of those matches are frustrating because there is a good 15-20 minute match in each of them but they kept going and going. I basically can't stand watching a Cole match at this point unless its a tag.

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3 hours ago, christopher.annino said:

AEW does not have a bloated roster, it's problem is thinking nearly every match has to go over 10 minutes and through at least one commercial break. 


exactly. 20+ minutes isn't epic or dramatic when everyone goes 20+ minutes.

match length is just as vulnerable to being devalued as blood, or chairshots, or run ins, or "shocking" 2.9 kickouts.

everyone going 20 minutes is one big part of AEW's "E-fed" problem.

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I think NXT right now is the best it's been since probably around 2017 or whenever Sami/Nakamura happened. Finn is a great champion who can have good matches with just about everyone. The midcard is loaded with lots of feuds and good personalities. The women's division is the best it's been since the Sasha/Bayley days. I'm looking forward to what they do when they move to Tuesdays.

The invention of streaming every show on Youtube or IWTV has hurt my interest in Lucha and to an extent Indie wrestling. There was a time back in like 2017 when I was watching every AAA, CMLL, IWRG and Monterrey show on that was on the net. Plus the handhelds from guys like Black Terry Jr and it just became too much. I remember watching a random Friday CMLL card and just wondering " why am I watching this it means nothing?" Same thing happened with IWTV. I see so many shows to watch that look intriguing but it's just too much and I don't know where to start.  I get this is very first world problems.

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nXt has been unwatchable since Undisputed Era became the focal point of the show. It's become this pretentious mix of everything wrong with pro wrestling in 2021. I despise it with every fibre of my being.

The first year Jon Moxley was in AEW I thought he was legitimately the best wrestler over 200 lbs. on the planet. I still think he's really fucking good, but it seems like now that he feels like he's proved that he isn't the goofy dipshit they wanted him to play in WWE he's gotten a little complacent. He's still the best English-speaking promo on Earth, and I only issue the caveat because I don't speak any other languages well enough to know if Japanese guys or Spanish speaking guys are cutting good promos. 

Kenny Omega ruins every segment he's on with his pretentious aura and his business exposing work. The tap dancing, the gesticulations and gyrations, and the faux-epic garbage garbaging up his matches. It's all awful. I also believe he's the reason AEW's ratings have slid since Mox dropped the title.

Sasha Banks is painfully overrated. She still isn't a good worker and she's propped up by a rabid online fanbase that slap down any criticism of her in-ring performances. I'd go so far as to say she's the weakest of the Horsewomen in-ring. 

Alexa Bliss is nXt's greatest success story to this point.

Cody Rhodes would be better served not trying to be a brand ambassador and instead getting back to whatever it was that gave us those "un-goddamn-deniable" promos. His program with Jericho was legitimately fantastic and he should be doing more serious shit like that.

AEW's women's division is closing in on WWE for second-best women's division in wrestling (Impact). Getting Statlander back puts them in the ballpark. Thunder Rosa signing full time, and she will, eventually, would inch them within a car length or two. WWE's women's division as a whole is stagnant and stretched way too thin over two brands.

Seth Rollins is actively bad at every aspect of his job.

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11 hours ago, just drew said:

nXt has been unwatchable since Undisputed Era became the focal point of the show. It's become this pretentious mix of everything wrong with pro wrestling in 2021. I despise it with every fibre of my being.

The first year Jon Moxley was in AEW I thought he was legitimately the best wrestler over 200 lbs. on the planet. I still think he's really fucking good, but it seems like now that he feels like he's proved that he isn't the goofy dipshit they wanted him to play in WWE he's gotten a little complacent. He's still the best English-speaking promo on Earth, and I only issue the caveat because I don't speak any other languages well enough to know if Japanese guys or Spanish speaking guys are cutting good promos. 

Kenny Omega ruins every segment he's on with his pretentious aura and his business exposing work. The tap dancing, the gesticulations and gyrations, and the faux-epic garbage garbaging up his matches. It's all awful. I also believe he's the reason AEW's ratings have slid since Mox dropped the title.

Sasha Banks is painfully overrated. She still isn't a good worker and she's propped up by a rabid online fanbase that slap down any criticism of her in-ring performances. I'd go so far as to say she's the weakest of the Horsewomen in-ring. 

Alexa Bliss is nXt's greatest success story to this point.

Cody Rhodes would be better served not trying to be a brand ambassador and instead getting back to whatever it was that gave us those "un-goddamn-deniable" promos. His program with Jericho was legitimately fantastic and he should be doing more serious shit like that.

AEW's women's division is closing in on WWE for second-best women's division in wrestling (Impact). Getting Statlander back puts them in the ballpark. Thunder Rosa signing full time, and she will, eventually, would inch them within a car length or two. WWE's women's division as a whole is stagnant and stretched way too thin over two brands.

Seth Rollins is actively bad at every aspect of his job.

Disagree on Sasha Banks.

Edited by The Natural
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Considering I like the Fiend, Alexa Bliss and it's ripping of Joker/Harley Quinn, I really hate their partnership particularly how it came about with a man assaulting a woman.

Edited by The Natural
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8 hours ago, BobbyWhioux said:


exactly. 20+ minutes isn't epic or dramatic when everyone goes 20+ minutes.

 

Counterpoint:

Dynamite 3/10/21:

Singles Match
Rey Fenix (w/PAC) defeats Matt Jackson (w/Nick Jackson) (14:17)

Singles Match
Cody Rhodes (w/Arn Anderson) defeats Seth Gargis (0:50)

Singles Match
Ethan Page defeats Lee Johnson (w/QT Marshall) (7:43)

Six Man Tag Team Match
Hikaru Shida, Ryo Mizunami & Thunder Rosa defeat Dr. Britt Baker DMD, Maki Ito & Nyla Rose (w/Rebel & Vickie Guerrero) (7:55)

AEW TNT Title Match
Darby Allin (c) defeats Scorpio Sky (13:15)

 

Dynamite 3/17/21 - St. Patrick's Day Slam

Singles Match
Cody Rhodes (w/Arn Anderson) defeats Penta El Zero Miedo (10:08)

Singles Match
Jade Cargill defeats Dani Jordyn (1:12)

Ten Man Tag Team Match
Matt Hardy, Private Party (Isiah Kassidy & Marq Quen) & The Butcher And The Blade (The Blade & The Butcher) (w/The Bunny) defeat Bear Country (Bear Boulder & Bear Bronson) & Jurassic Express (Jungle Boy, Luchasaurus & Marko Stunt) (8:47)

Tag Team Match
Eddie Kingston & Jon Moxley defeat The Good Brothers (Doc Gallows & Karl Anderson) (9:52)

Singles Match
Rey Fenix (w/PAC) defeats Angelico (7:31)

Unsanctioned Lights Out Match
Thunder Rosa defeats Dr. Britt Baker DMD (w/Rebel) (16:37)

 

Dynamite 24/3/21

AEW World Title Eliminator Match
Kenny Omega defeats Matt Sydal (w/Mike Sydal) (11:30)

Singles Match
Adam Page defeats Cezar Bononi (2:18)

Six Man Tag Team Match
The Pinnacle (Cash Wheeler, Dax Harwood & Shawn Spears) (w/MJF, Tully Blanchard & Wardlow) defeat The Varsity Blonds (Brian Pillman Jr. & Griff Garrison) & Dante Martin (6:24)

Six Man Tag Team Match
The Lucha Brothers (Penta El Zero Miedo & Rey Fenix) & Laredo Kid defeat The Young Bucks (Matt Jackson & Nick Jackson) & Brandon Cutler (12:30)

Singles Match
Tay Conti defeats Nyla Rose (w/Vickie Guerrero) (9:28)

AEW TNT Title Match
Darby Allin (c) defeats John Silver (w/Alex Reynolds, Colt Cabana, Evil Uno, Five, Stu Grayson & Ten) (13:46)

 

I'm not cherry-picking. Those are literally the last three episodes of Dynamite. And, per Cagematch literally nobody is going "over twenty minutes" and even @christopher.annino's more reasonable assertion that in AEW "nearly every match has to go over 10 minutes" seems not to be all that accurate. I myself am surprised by these results, but the facts are the facts.

Now, in terms of PPVs, here are the Cagematch results for Revolution 2021:

AEW World Tag Team Title Match
The Young Bucks (Matt Jackson & Nick Jackson) (c) defeat The Inner Circle (Chris Jericho & MJF) (w/Wardlow) (17:49)

Casino Tag Team Royale Match (26:45)

AEW Women's World Title Match
Hikaru Shida (c) defeats Ryo Mizunami (15:06)

Tag Team Match
Kip Sabian & Miro (w/Penelope Ford) defeat Chuck Taylor & Orange Cassidy (7:51)

Big Money Match
Adam Page defeats Matt Hardy (14:57)

AEW TNT Title #1 Contendership Face Of The Revolution Ladder Match
Scorpio Sky defeats Cody Rhodes (w/Arn Anderson) and Ethan Page and Lance Archer (w/Jake Roberts) and Max Caster and Penta El Zero Miedo (23:07)

Tag Team Street Fight
Darby Allin & Sting defeat Team Taz (Brian Cage & Ricky Starks) (13:52)

AEW World Title Exploding Barbed Wire Death Match
Kenny Omega (c) defeats Jon Moxley (25:11)
 

So: You do get three matches going over 20 minutes there, if you count the battle royal.

At Full Gear '20 only Bucks vs FTR went over 20 minutes, though Hardy vs Sammy and the Mox vs King main event both came close.

At Beach Break, only the 6-man main event tag went (barely) over 15 minutes. The battle royal there came in at a tidy (11:37).

It seems like a reasonable take, and I don't actually disagree with you guys in that I also feel like there are too many long matches in modern pro wrestling generally (and in NJPW in particular - some of that being due to pandemic considerations)... but in fact AEW seems not to be guilty of thinking every match has to go long. 

 

Edited by El Gran Gordi
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Interesting, because with so many matches going through a break, it feels like it's eating up more time on the show despite technically taking less. Maybe it's a formatting issue, or an often mentioned point in that several matches have similar spots throughout the night with dives, out of the ring battling, etc 

Either way, you could easily shave off a minute here and there, tighten up the matches and in just an additional five minutes per show you can add several promos, hype segments, or interviews. 

Edited by christopher.annino
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