Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

Your wrestling HOT TAKES


A.M.B.

Recommended Posts

17 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

 

- Wrestlers should look, act and carry themselves like wrestlers (excepting some exceptional exceptions, of course) , i.e., intimidating, large, bigger than life, unusual, un-markish. Greg Gagne used to get shit on, and he comes off like Mike Tyson compared to some of the nerds playing pretend these days.

 

gYZHf1V.jpg

I dunno... I mean, this guy isn't exactly a monster (maybe 6'0, 210?) and I've heard he's pretty good! ?

 

59 minutes ago, Matt D said:

...it's no longer Wrestling.

I totally agree with you that pro wrestling has fundamentally changed. My favourite feeling when watching pro wrestling is really hoping that the good guy will beat the bad guy and being elated when it happens or sad/angry/crushed when it doesn't. That feeling is indeed very rare these days! The last time I lost myself in that feeling was probably Billyken Kid vs Dick Togo at Osaka Pro Hurricane 2010. The last time i was really able to suspend my disbelief entirely was probably Savage vs Steamboat at WM III.

I was also able to lose myself in similar (but not he same) waves of emotion watching the Main Events of WMs XX and XXX. The feeling was, as you very astutely point out, "wanting to see the company push the wrestlers that (we) wanted to win."

And I spent quite a while enjoying a "wanting to see and discuss all of the great matches" phase and I have to admit there is an element of "hoping to catch a great match live so I can brag online about having been there" when I go to live shows, though that is only a small part of why I go. (I actually said to my friend as we were on our way to Osaka Jo Hall last February that if MiSu and Mox pulled out all of the stops and put on a classic brawl we'd always be able to tell people that we were there live. They didn't. We still enjoyed ourselves very much).  

Personally, I am already sick to death of wrestlers "trying to earn five stars." Of what out online friend El-P calls the "self-conscious epic style" of pro wrestling. Though, perversely, I have taught myself to really enjoy stuff like the Bucks vs Pac & Fénix main event from the most recent Dynamite.

I feel like we've had this conversation before (and likely will again) but my feeling is that the next stage of pro wrestling, the one that is emerging from the still-smouldering ashes of a dying "it's all about great matches" culture, will be the "sense of community" that we get from watching wrestling with like-minded fans. And so: The rise of fan inclusion, fourth-wall breaking, social media, youtube shows, and so on. Everyone gets to have an experience like what I got with Osaka Pro or if I go to a Vancouver All Star show when I'm back in Canada: The (quite real) sense that we are being entertained by our friends, by people we know quite well, who like us and include us in what's going on. 

I think that the main difference is that, to me, that is very much still pro wrestling. Whether the purpose is to bilk gullible farmers out of their gambling money, to rile up "us vs them" feelings, to exploit pop culture trends, to make us believe, to put on five star classics, to make us feel warmly welcomed... it's all still pro wrestling to me.

That being said, though, I think I genuinely loved it most when I really wanted the good guy to beat the bad guy,

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the Jimmy Valiant comment. He is so underrated as an entertainer. 

I don’t agree with some of the stuff about Ric Flair. Ric’s prime was over by 1987. Yeah that’s right Flair/Sting, Flair/Steamboat and Flair/Luger wasn’t even prime Flair. I haven’t gotten around to seeing the older Flair/Steamboat matches but I have seen some of his older Japan stuff and older stuff vs Kerry Von Erich. Flair was totally smooth on the mat, did lots of reversals and moving around, and many more moves (not like 1000 like Chris Benoit but a bunch). His last prime years were sabotaged vs Dusty, Ronnie and old Harley. Then whenever people decide to look up an old Flair match to see what it was all about they go straight to Harley from Starrcade. Gah...that was worse than the Dusty matches tbh. 

Now the point of explaining all of that was not that Ric Flair fell off of some huge cliff in 1987. He was still really freaking good. He was just so good before that that he could afford to lose as many steps as he did to be as good as he was until...shit...1999. I talked about in the performances after 40 thread, that Goldberg match particularly. His matches being the same was true as he was as narrow minded near the end as he was limited but it didn’t help that he was booked for the same old shit week after week since 1987 either.

 

Edited by BloodyChamp
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, El Gran Gordi said:

I feel like we've had this conversation before (and likely will again) but my feeling is that the next stage of pro wrestling, the one that is emerging from the still-smouldering ashes of a dying "it's all about great matches" culture, will be the "sense of community" that we get from watching wrestling with like-minded fans. And so: The rise of fan inclusion, fourth-wall breaking, social media, youtube shows, and so on. Everyone gets to have an experience like what I got with Osaka Pro or if I go to a Vancouver All Star show when I'm back in Canada: The (quite real) sense that we are being entertained by our friends, by people we know quite well, who like us and include us in what's going on. 

the vibe at All In was absolutely this. i had fully immersed myself in BTE and searched out noteworthy matches from the featured acts so that i could "blend in" with the hardcore fans that were going to be there. i knew i wouldn't catch every reference or callback, but i hoped that i'd "get" enough of it to enjoy myself. and you know what? i shouldn't have worried. every single person was there to hang out with their friends (whether that be the Bucks, Cody, Omega, Scurll, or whoever else). Yeah, it also played into the "us vs them" mentality, with the 10,000 seat bet and the overwhelming disappointment of the WWE product, but it was all a positive output of that. 

If i ever go to a show again that can tap into 1/3 of that energy, it will be an all-time great.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bray Wyatt might have been the most wasted character in the last 10 years. Regardless of the opinions his in ring presence (and I do think generally he is better than this board treats him,) , they had something 7 years ago and they squandered it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bray has the "it" factor most wrestlers don't have.  He's decent-good on the mic and connects with a large percentage of the audience.  He somehow managed to move merch even when working heel and playing bizarre characters.  He's got plenty of limitations as a wrestler, but that's almost beside the point when you can talk well and have that much physical charisma.  It seems reasonable to think Vince could have made him a huge, long-term star and instead turned him into something of a flash-in-the-pan.

i say this as someone who has zero interest in his segments and matches, and would probably name Bray as one of his least two favorite WWE wrestlers of the past 30 years.  Personally, I'm glad Vince didn't manage to turn him into the next Undertaker, but the potential was there and Vince probably has left a lot of money on the table by not using Bray better.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. I thought my biggest problem with current wrestling was too many matches having too many two-counts.  Now I realize, my biggest problem with current wrestling is wrestlers acting surprised when someone kicks out at two.  I still don't like the two-counts themselves, but wrestlers acting like they didn't expect a kick out takes me right out of a match.  They should either be angry or just get right back to the business of wrestling.  Nobody should be surprised.  Two counts happen all the time.

2. The $175 two minute WWE Virtual Meet and Greets are totally worth it.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Uncle Coaster said:

1. I thought my biggest problem with current wrestling was too many matches having too many two-counts.  Now I realize, my biggest problem with current wrestling is wrestlers acting surprised when someone kicks out at two.  I still don't like the two-counts themselves, but wrestlers acting like they didn't expect a kick out takes me right out of a match.  They should either be angry or just get right back to the business of wrestling.  Nobody should be surprised.  Two counts happen all the time.

 

bring back arguing with the ref.  Doubly true for the heels but even faces should do it now and then; part of trying to win the match is part of trying to get the call.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/9/2021 at 11:27 AM, Technico Support said:

Am I remembering incorrectly or did WWE actually combine "faction" and "regime" into "FAC-GIME" one time?

Yes, I made sure to immortalize the "McMahon-Helmsley Fac-gime" in my upcoming WWF history book (King of New York).

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Uncle Coaster said:

1. I thought my biggest problem with current wrestling was too many matches having too many two-counts.  Now I realize, my biggest problem with current wrestling is wrestlers acting surprised when someone kicks out at two.  I still don't like the two-counts themselves, but wrestlers acting like they didn't expect a kick out takes me right out of a match.  They should either be angry or just get right back to the business of wrestling.  Nobody should be surprised.  Two counts happen all the time.

 

As talented as Tay Conti is and as applauded as she should be for turning chicken shit into chicken salad, her shocked two count face is the worst.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Uncle Coaster said:

1. I thought my biggest problem with current wrestling was too many matches having too many two-counts.  Now I realize, my biggest problem with current wrestling is wrestlers acting surprised when someone kicks out at two.  I still don't like the two-counts themselves, but wrestlers acting like they didn't expect a kick out takes me right out of a match.  They should either be angry or just get right back to the business of wrestling.  Nobody should be surprised.  Two counts happen all the time.

 

 

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

As talented as Tay Conti is and as applauded as she should be for turning chicken shit into chicken salad, her shocked two count face is the worst.

This was being discussed a couple of weeks back, but WALTER is the best wrestler about this stuff right now. He simply either doesn't give a fuck or looks mildly annoyed and moves on because there is still business to attend while his opponent is still moving.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Eivion said:

 

This was being discussed a couple of weeks back, but WALTER is the best wrestler about this stuff right now. He simply either doesn't give a fuck or looks mildly annoyed and moves on because there is still business to attend while his opponent is still moving.

Yeah, I mentioned it a couple of times in the Takeover thread but WALTER immediately selling his hand injury instead of losing sleep over Ciampa's kickout was such a brilliant moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

As talented as Tay Conti is and as applauded as she should be for turning chicken shit into chicken salad, her shocked two count face is the worst.

She kind of has a face that makes every facial expression feel like it's overexaggerated, so when she does an overexaggerated facial expression it looks really silly.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/18/2021 at 1:19 AM, BloodyChamp said:

I agree with the Jimmy Valiant comment. He is so underrated as an entertainer. 

I don’t agree with some of the stuff about Ric Flair. Ric’s prime was over by 1987. Yeah that’s right Flair/Sting, Flair/Steamboat and Flair/Luger wasn’t even prime Flair. I haven’t gotten around to seeing the older Flair/Steamboat matches but I have seen some of his older Japan stuff and older stuff vs Kerry Von Erich. Flair was totally smooth on the mat, did lots of reversals and moving around, and many more moves (not like 1000 like Chris Benoit but a bunch). His last prime years were sabotaged vs Dusty, Ronnie and old Harley. Then whenever people decide to look up an old Flair match to see what it was all about they go straight to Harley from Starrcade. Gah...that was worse than the Dusty matches tbh. 

Now the point of explaining all of that was not that Ric Flair fell off of some huge cliff in 1987. He was still really freaking good. He was just so good before that that he could afford to lose as many steps as he did to be as good as he was until...shit...1999. I talked about in the performances after 40 thread, that Goldberg match particularly. His matches being the same was true as he was as narrow minded near the end as he was limited but it didn’t help that he was booked for the same old shit week after week since 1987 either.

 

What tends to get overlooked when people talk about Flair being formulaic is that he was working a lot with guys like Sting and Luger in the late-80s and those guys were still really green. It's easy to forget that Luger and Sting had only really been in the business about 3 or 4 years when they were essentially pushed as main eventers in JCP. Flair kind of had to keep it simple when working with them. I remember JJ Dillon telling a story about how many times Sting really didn't know what to do in between his moves. Flair and JJ would basically have to tell him to do stuff like "beat your chest and do your scream to the crowd" to keep him from just standing around and watching Flair sell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

What tends to get overlooked when people talk about Flair being formulaic is that he was working a lot with guys like Sting and Luger in the late-80s and those guys were still really green. It's easy to forget that Luger and Sting had only really been in the business about 3 or 4 years when they were essentially pushed as main eventers in JCP. Flair kind of had to keep it simple when working with them. I remember JJ Dillon telling a story about how many times Sting really didn't know what to do in between his moves. Flair and JJ would basically have to tell him to do stuff like "beat your chest and do your scream to the crowd" to keep him from just standing around and watching Flair sell.

In this same thread I mentioned a certain hot take about Luger if you remember. Flair obviously did alot to help Sting and Luger, especially Sting, but as far as bare bones wrestling and getting better at it, he actually held them back in the long run. His Ray Stevens story that he always repeated (if he didn’t do that 1 neat move the fans weren’t happy), he had a point but it wasn’t something that every wrestler that ever who came after him should have lived by every match. I also think Flair kinda came up with that as he got older to cover up his limitations but that’s another post. 

Every time he wrestled Sting after 1988 you could see Sting just doing what Grandpa wanted. He’d went on to have all those matches with Vader, the Steiners, Muta etc then when it came time to wrestler Flair again it was time to get the script back out and memorize it. The truth is I get the Flair criticisms as time went on and I never liked Sting and Luger being green as an excuse. But I also know how great he was in his prime, and that he wasn’t what I’d call bad until the 2000s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wrestling actually is probably closer to ballet than any other athletic endeavor. Specialized athletes doing performances (not competitions) that are far more difficult to perform than anyone gives them credit for and who suffer from far more injuries than anyone would reasonably expect. The other closest comparison are Marvel Live Stunt Shows.

Workrate is bullshit and is a pretend statistic at best that has no actual objective measures in it. It honestly be replaced by Bumps Per Minute (BPM) which could actually measure what workrate purports to do but doesn't.

The Steiner Brothers have the greatest wrestling offense in history. Addendum: Rick Steiner has one of the best clothesline bumps you'll ever see.

Roll up finishes aren't de facto bad, the school boy was just run into the dirt by WWE to the point of ridiculousness. They are perfectly acceptable otherwise and preferable in some instances to knock out finishes.

Wrestling should work like comedy in that you work short to start, develop five good minutes and grow from there. It feels like everyone wants to start with the HBO Special 20 minute and they aren't ready for it.

The story that 'the promotion doesn't believe in me' should be fired into the sun forever. You're breaking the narrative by saying you lose because you're told to (unless you're the Gunn Club, who actually could use this gripe since they win all the time and still never move up) and secondly, everyone gets told they aren't good enough at one point. Michael Jordan and Tom Brady are famous for being salty at people from years ago who didn't believe in them. It's universal for famous people that someone, somewhere told them they weren't good enough.

Miz and CM Punk are the perfect allegories for the current brand of wrestler vs the classic asshole wrestler. Miz is the good soldier who will put anyone over, work for you for years and never complain, do all of the promotional stuff you could ask for, and do a television series on the side. He won't rock the boat. CM Punk is the prick who wants to main event Wrestlemania every year, complain all the time about how he is being used, and draw a house with the force of his personality and promo. Both have their good and bad points. You'll have more locker room harmony with Miz and he'll be around a lot longer but you'll never reach the highs of a CM Punk.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...