MARCH 2021 Discussion of Wrestling.

[The Natural]

15 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Oh, man, I do love me a good Cesaro hot tag.  It seems like so long ago that he would go back and forth with running uppercuts and tear up a beach ball in the process.  It kind of makes me wonder for as great as he is as singles if maybe his career destiny was always to be a tag person.  Don't get me wrong, him as WWE champ would be aces but I tend to remember a lot more from his tags with partners like Hero, Sheamus and others.

I got to see a Cesaro hot tag at a WWE house show in November 2015 as he/Sheamus vs. The New Day vs. Luke Gallows/Karl Anderson vs. Enzo/Big Ass and it made for my second favourite house show I attended. The other reasons: finally got to see Sasha Banks live because she wasn't at the other house shows I attended, Chris Jericho (turns out that was his last match in the UK) and the best seats of any house show I'd gone to.

Edited March 26, 2021 by The Natural

[NikoBaltimore]

I think the one time I saw Cesaro live (WWE era) was when he had that best of 7 with Sheamus on Raw.  That was a pretty fun one from what I remember though the finish was weird.

[OSJ]

27 minutes ago, Hagan said:

Here's the thought experiment:

Slippery-slopes arguments are fallacious because they ultimately are arguments in bad faith. However, there is a very logical chance that the end point is the archive gets nuked. That's not pie-in-the-sky conspiracy. Logically, you can look at what they are editing, what they are looking for and all of us can easily name HOURS AND HOURS of content off the top of our head in the archive that is racist, sexist, homophobic and misogynistic. 

So, show of hands: if Peacock decides to just nerf the archive or put up shows that are so heavily edited as to be basically old VHS clip jobs, are you okay with that? I can certainly accept that maybe it's a better overall for a lot of reasons but it's not bad faith to suggest that that's what we're ending up with AT BEST. . 

I know what offends me, but that isn't the issue. The issue is where does the line get drawn? Do we eliminate all footage of Gorgeous George, even though that was late 1940s-1950s TV. By all means, without context his gimmick is offensive as hell.

Where will people stand on Adrian Street's character (semi-effeminate ass-kicker)? I don't honestly know where the line should be, but I do know portraying a black man of Nigerian descent wandering around with a spear is about as offensive as anything I've seen on television in the last decade.  

[John from Cincinnati]

28 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Does anyone know what the review mechanism is right now?  Are people at Peacock literally going through hours of footage or are people tipping Peacock off?  Can someone give me the tipline number? 

If you really want to stick it to them, you should contact NBC's parent company, the Sheinhardt Wig Corporation. 

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

18 minutes ago, OSJ said:

I know what offends me, but that isn't the issue. The issue is where does the line get drawn? Do we eliminate all footage of Gorgeous George, even though that was late 1940s-1950s TV. By all means, without context his gimmick is offensive as hell.

Where will people stand on Adrian Street's character (semi-effeminate ass-kicker)? I don't honestly know where the line should be, but I do know portraying a black man of Nigerian descent wandering around with a spear is about as offensive as anything I've seen on television in the last decade.  

The line will get drawn somewhere, obviously. The question is, how much bigotry are you willing to tolerate in what you watch, knowing it might harm others?

[Casey]

“Preserving wrestling history” is about the dumbest excuse for people to use to defend their opinion on why NBC shouldn’t be doing this, too.

[Matt D]

1. We should listen to people who can or do get hurt by these things, seek their opinions, respect their opinions.

2. When possible, I believe in contextualization. If you're going to leave something, don't just leave it there without contextualizing it. Provide explanation and resources. If it is necessary to remove something, it's not enough to just remove it. Remove and offer context in its place or attached to it.

3. I know personally, I am impacted differently by things that happened before I was born (and I'd say especially before I had hit adolescence) and after, but that's just me. But it's all probably on a case-by-case basis relative to #1 above.

[Ultimo Necro]

WWE’s history is like wading through a sewer trying to find a lump of gold.

For every great match or promo you’ve got 100 things that are terrible or offensive or both.

This is a company that 18 months ago had the Jordan Myles T-Shirt controversy and here we are with Apollo walking about with a spear. I don’t think they will ever change without pressure from the TV companies who fund their bullshit.

The things they are removing is probably stuff 99% of us would never likely re-watch anyway. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

56 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

And just to reiterate, I am in favor of erasing the black face segments. I have zero issue with those being erased from history. And the audio of any slur.

That's where we're in agreement. I've never said once that you have do a total scrub where you take away the visual aspect. It's not that hard to remove six or seven seconds of audio. There are creative ways you can remove stuff without it being harmful to your overall viewer experience. And the stuff that has to be removed where the visual component is part of? Just the cost of doing business.

I've learned from the Chris Benoit discussion we had here (I wanna say a year or so ago now maybe or longer) that people will die on that hill if need be. Like I'm talking get bayoneted in the throat like a soldier in a war movie. It's not really a zero sum game in this aspect because my argument has never been touch everything. The troubling aspect for all involved is IF you have to because it's so toxic. If your leg gets gangrene and the doctor says the infection has spread to the point where amputation is necessary, you can get second opinion after second opinion. That leg has got to go. It's not because the doctor doesn't like you having two legs. That's not gonna help you at all to blame the doctor(s). You're the one who didn't go to the doctor before the infection spread and it was far too late. 

What you're having is a bunch of individual, tiny conversations that need to hammered out between you and the party responsible for why this content needs to be removed. You cannot feign ignorance and not be able to compartmentalize things. You can't say on one hand, "I understand"  and then on the other hand "I don't understand.". You clearly understand why these things are extremely problematic. You're having a hard time coming to grips that something you love can be extremely problematic. Therefore, you cannot pass the buck to those who have a problem with it or could potentially have a problem with it. Your issue is with WWE, WCW, ECW, or whatever promotions appear on the WWE network or Peacock. It is what it is. It has to go. Does everything on the streaming service have to go? No and that has never been my point. I pay the same subscription price as everyone else. I don't have some fear everything is going to be gone.

1 hour ago, Eoae said:

Elvis has articulated a lot of his points very well.  I’d be in complete agreement with him if he wasn’t so interested in making sure (over and over) we know we’re shit people if we disagree with him even slightly.

You wanna know why? Because my race is not something I see as a laughing matter. Hence, THIS entire discussion. Hell, if you implied that you were cool with blackface, you'd be in HR quicker than a hiccup. 

And you sound completely silly saying, "Well I would be in agreement with the truth BUT I don't like the tone and delivery." That's absolutely moronic on your part. That's why issues on race continue to persist. If you refuse to listen and hear people out, your own personal problems with race will never go away. You cannot say something racist, double down, and be confused that the affected parties are mad. That's insane.

Also this thread doesn't have to be closed because you're too immature or unlearned to have that conversation. If you wanna disqualify yourself, be my guest. No one is holding you hostage. Your idiocy maybe, but no one else is.

[DEAN]

36 minutes ago, Casey said:

“Preserving wrestling history” is about the dumbest excuse for people to use to defend their opinion on why NBC shouldn’t be doing this, too.

What do you mean?  People need to realize how sleazy and horrible wrestling was and is.  Bowlderizing WWE history is grotesque.  Deleting Jerry Lawler's commentary isn't going to change the fact that WWE pushed softcore pornography from women who were forced to do things that were reprehensible.  

[NoFistsJustFlips]

17 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

The line will get drawn somewhere, obviously. The question is, how much bigotry are you willing to tolerate in what you watch, knowing it might harm others?

In current day programming? Zero. Zero tolerance for people that should know better in this time and place. Which is why Peacock should have just bought the rights to the live PPVs and let the network be the network. I have a different view on the older content. It shouldn't be judged against today's standards, it should be judged against the standard of the time it existed.

I'm not someone trying to stand up for the vile shit. I'm as socially inclusive as everyone else that posts here. My point with this is, through the microcosm of wrestling / scripted entertainment, we all have varying scales of what the line is. Anyone outside the bubble finds *all* of pro wrestling dumb & offensive. Hell there's people out there that find men and women being allowed to wear spandex trunks in public offensive. Do they get to draw the line? Do we have to adhere to the most strict views of that person? Does all old footage have to be cgi to include full body suits like they made the women wear in Saudi Arabia? Where does the line get drawn? Who draws it?

This is scripted entertainment. These are characters. Movies have good guys and bad guys. Are we deleting chunks of movies from the 80s when the bag guy says a bad thing? I guess it's not an apples to apples comparison. But I love Macho Man. He was a heel who treated his significant other like shit in hindsight. In today's context it certainly comes off as domestic violence and gaslighting. Do we have to erase Savage's work because of the character? I think we all agree domestic abuse is not fucking cool right? So who gets to decide where a domestic abuse character weighs in vs trans-phobic character? Or vs jingoistic character?

Delete all black face content.

Delete audio of all slurs.

But if you go further than that, the entirety of pro wrestling history is gonna go down with it.

[supremebve]

12 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

And you sound completely silly saying, "Well I would be in agreement with the truth BUT I don't like the tone and delivery." That's absolutely moronic on your part. That's why issues on race continue to persist. If you refuse to listen and hear people out, your own personal problems with race will never go away. You cannot say something racist, double down, and be confused that the affected parties are mad. That's insane.

Y'all might want to soak up this free game before he starts charging for it. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

21 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You're having a hard time coming to grips that something you love can be extremely problematic. Therefore, you cannot pass the buck to those who have a problem with it or could potentially have a problem with it. Your issue is with WWE, WCW, ECW, or whatever promotions appear on the WWE network or Peacock.

To this I respond with this :

10 minutes ago, DEAN said:

What do you mean?  People need to realize how sleazy and horrible wrestling was and is.  Bowlderizing WWE history is grotesque.  Deleting Jerry Lawler's commentary isn't going to change the fact that WWE pushed softcore pornography from women who were forced to do things that were reprehensible.  

Like if you want to take that stand, I'm all for it. But go all the way. Don't pick and choose. Because I think it's you who is compartmentalizing things here. I love pro wrestling. But unfortunately I know it's a fucking sleaze factory. The indys of today are way different of the indys of when I started in wrestling. Things are moving in the right direction. There is a lot of representation of all kinds of inclusive thought processes and it's great. But no matter how much better we do on the indys, that doesn't clean up the fact that this business was built on a pretty gross foundation.

Deleting the characters you don't like when viewed through today's lens doesn't erase them from existing. It doesn't absolve the decision makers of the time for that gross decision. It doesn't change that WWE / WCW / ECW/ AWA / NWA / whatever else were sleazy as fuck. And in WWE's case can still be pretty sleazy today. So I would just point out maybe it's you who can't come to grips with enjoying this form of entertainment that always has, and still does, profit off of some pretty gross people.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Like if you want to take that stand, I'm all for it. 

Apparently not because you're not understanding some very simple things. 

Quote

But go all the way. Don't pick and choose. 

You don't get to tell people when they should go all the way OR even judge if it is going all the way. Hell, I will even use my self for example. One of the few admitted slip ups I had (and I probably wouldn't call it a slip up as much as a learning experience) is when we were discussing a Walter Hill movie (The Assignment w/ Michelle Rodriguez and god knows who else was in it....Sigourney Weaver maybe?) a few years ago. There was controversy about Michelle Rodriguez playing a transman (sorry if my terminology isn't correct my bad). I know someone had a major issue with it and I think there was a boycott, and my reply was something to the effect of "Man, I don't even see why someone would be mad at this. Hell, I didn't know the  movie had already been out. You should probably direct your energy elsewhere on something bigger." This in turn pissed off Dolfan and we had a little misunderstanding that was quickly resolved. However, with the benefit of hindsight, I shoulder the blame for that misunderstanding because I didn't have the proper context of what people were mad about and the controversy. Again, it was a movie that completely flew under the radar. That doesn't change that I had a faux pas. It wasn't my place to say don't pick and choose your battles. Not when I am not on that side.

Second, I can be mad about racism and still understand WWE and NBC are running a business. I understand what comes with that. I also understand what comes with being a customer. If I am a big time customer for a certain t-shirt website and they have to remove certain t-shirt designs for inappropriate material or even anything that can be construed as that, I am not going to be pissed that they had to do that. I am also not going to draw conclusions that this could put their whole business and my enjoyment of it in jeopardy. What's going to happen is what's going to happen. That's out of my power. It's on them if they didn't do their due diligence.

Quote

Because I think it's you who is compartmentalizing things here.

Well yes cause my whole point is you're smart enough to compartmentalize those things. Or hopefully you are. You can do that and figure out getting rid of certain things weren't infringe on your entertainment. If it is, that's probably something you need to resolve within yourself.

And as for what Dean said and what you said about erasing things...the point isn't to erase anything. The point is to call out and say that this doesn't belong in our society or any form of entertainment. And as much as I love DEAN, I can say what he said is completely off base. Just because something is scummy doesn't warrant any excuses of the behavior since it's just so far at one end of spectrum it's ridiculous. Not when your fanbase is SUPPOSEDLY extremely diverse. It's not gonna fly. Because WWE (and wrestling in general) has been outlaw territory, it's become normalized to the point where people don't even feel anything anymore. And that itself is a huge problem because it's only reflective of a toxic fanbase. I am in favor of improving it so we don't have to go through shit like this anymore, and people can learn from it. It seems like people refuse to learn. 

Now you have the fact that NBC brought in the brutal and nasty reality check in the form of swift censorship. To steal a phrase from the great KRS-ONE, "YOU....MUST...LEARN."

[AxB]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

In current day programming? Zero. Zero tolerance for people that should know better in this time and place. Which is why Peacock should have just bought the rights to the live PPVs and let the network be the network. I have a different view on the older content. It shouldn't be judged against today's standards, it should be judged against the standard of the time it existed.

Santina Marella was in the Women's Royal Rumble LAST YEAR. Would anyone like to try and claim that that gimmick is anything other than massively transphobic?

[PetrolCB]

Can we just go back to talking about Sid?

[Dog]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

This is scripted entertainment. These are characters. Movies have good guys and bad guys. Are we deleting chunks of movies from the 80s when the bag guy says a bad thing? I guess it's not an apples to apples comparison. But I love Macho Man. He was a heel who treated his significant other like shit in hindsight. In today's context it certainly comes off as domestic violence and gaslighting. Do we have to erase Savage's work because of the character? I think we all agree domestic abuse is not fucking cool right?

Problem is, a lot of times the good guys were doing bad things and being cheered for it (Piper, DX in the Nation sketch, etc.), and the bad guys were hated for doing things we consider pretty normal now (e.g. Goldust).

And as for who draws the line, that's already been answered in this thread -- whoever owns or distributes the content. The same way the heirs of Dr. Seuss aren't forced to publish books they're no longer comfortable with.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Dog

[Infinit]

I bet Vince thinks it's OK for Apollo to have a spear, because Drew comes out with a sword.

"WHAT'S THE GODDAMN DIFFERENCE, PAL????"

[RRR]

14 minutes ago, AxB said:

Santina Marella was in the Women's Royal Rumble LAST YEAR. Would anyone like to try and claim that that gimmick is anything other than massively transphobic?

Honestly think your reaching here but I’m sure you can find way better examples to try and stoke the flames some more. The network has been around how long? For which you have no doubt been a subscriber to at some point and now that this shit is on Peacock and someone finally gave a shit to censor WWE that isn’t WWE your ready to go all Occupy Titan Towers up in this bitch? 
 

I despise Vince and his sleazy ways as much as the next dvdr poster but to think wrestling will ever change or be truly cared about by anyone other then the people who watch it is foolish at this point. 
 

[Craig H]

21 minutes ago, Infinit said:

I bet Vince thinks it's OK for Apollo to have a spear, because Drew comes out with a sword.

"WHAT'S THE GODDAMN DIFFERENCE, PAL????"

God... you're probably right. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

41 minutes ago, Dog said:

Problem is, a lot of times the good guys were doing bad things and being cheered for it (Piper, DX in the Nation sketch, etc.), and the bad guys were hated for doing things we consider pretty normal now (e.g. Goldust).

And as for who draws the line, that's already been answered in this thread -- whoever owns or distributes the content. The same way the heirs of Dr. Seuss aren't forced to publish books they're no longer comfortable with.

To put a somewhat ironic twist on this, I was listening to the STW episode covering Wrestlemania 13. Research shows it was recorded in 2017 back before Bruce went back to WWE.

Now I knew something crazy happened in the Chicago Street Fight. I didn't know exactly what it was, but I just knew something happened. So when Bruce and Conrad get to that match towards the tail end of the episode, I'm expecting Bruce to just dance around what happened and try to paint a rosy picture. Much to my surprise, Bruce had a very straightforward and poignant response talking about how shocking and wrong it was to have noose in a match involving black wrestlers. He even pointed out how it's crazy that two fat white guys from the South know how fucking wrong that is. I must admit I was on the floor laughing when Bruce said as soon as he saw the noose, the first thing that came into his head was the Lost in Space, "DANGER! WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!"

If we were to FF to 2021 when Bruce now works for WWE, I don't expect his response to be any different. If the most loyal motherfucker in WWF/E history (besides Jim Ross cause he got fired a bajillion times too and kept coming back) can see how terrible those things are, it should not be lost on people why change is absolutely necessary. Stuff like that is bad for business and bad for society in general. If there is some churn cause people are too stupid and bull-headed to understand it, there is nothing that can be done about it. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You don't get to tell people when they should go all the way OR even judge if it is going all the way.

Fair enough. But you're smart enough to see that's what you're also doing in here as well.
 

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Second, I can be mad about racism and still understand WWE and NBC are running a business. I understand what comes with that. I also understand what comes with being a customer.

I disagree with you giving yourself an out for that being okay just because they are running a business. That's a little intellectually dishonest in my opinion. But that's okay we're allowed to have different points of view. But to me it's hard to accept someone's forceful tone in telling me I'm wrong when you're doing a version of the exact same thing. (You used the word racism, but I'm assuming that also extends to racism / trans-phopia / jingoistic views / a general catch all for the sleazy actions we've been talking about. I'm certainly not trying to tell you how to feel about racism specifically). It's still the same dude that used the N word on TV running the place. It's still the same company taking your money that keeps repeating these sleazy actions. And that's okay you're allowed to like what you like. But in the some breath you're also chastising me for not being as forceful as you are for the depth of stuff I think needs to be erased. Surely you can see how that comes off as you having your cake and eating it too?
 

45 minutes ago, AxB said:

Santina Marella was in the Women's Royal Rumble LAST YEAR. Would anyone like to try and claim that that gimmick is anything other than massively transphobic?

Good point. It's still the same sleazy people repeating the same sleazy shit. I think we should be far more mad about this in context, something that happened in 2020, vs something like Adrian Adonis in 1987. But that's just me.
 

29 minutes ago, Dog said:

Problem is, a lot of times the good guys were doing bad things and being cheered for it (Piper, DX in the Nation sketch, etc.), and the bad guys were hated for doing things we consider pretty normal now (e.g. Goldust).

This is true and a fair point. But again this stuff is scripted. Wrestling is in this grey area where we want to treat it like it's real. But it's not. It's a play that plays out in a ring. Case in point the babyface in Revenge of The Nerds totally rapes a chick (pretends he's someone else with a mask and has sex with her without consent) and was cheered for it. Unfortunately that's how things were in the 80s & 90s. No one is saying that's how things should still be presented tho.
 

23 minutes ago, Infinit said:

I bet Vince thinks it's OK for Apollo to have a spear, because Drew comes out with a sword.

"WHAT'S THE GODDAMN DIFFERENCE, PAL????"

Again good point. It's still the same sleazy people repeating the same sleazy shit.

[twiztor]

4 hours ago, Hagan said:

So, show of hands: if Peacock decides to just nerf the archive or put up shows that are so heavily edited as to be basically old VHS clip jobs, are you okay with that? I can certainly accept that maybe it's a better overall for a lot of reasons but it's not bad faith to suggest that that's what we're ending up with AT BEST. . 

nuke it all. If cutting out all racist/sexist/etc segments makes MNW-era Raws last 15 minutes, what's the point of keeping any of it?
if it results in PPVs that run 1hr and half of that has the audio cut, why bother?

what brings the views is current stuff (even if i'll never understand why...) and Specials/documentaries. Both of those can continue.

yes, i'll lament that we'll never get 80s weekly AWA (most of that is unavailable through other means) or 90s WCW B and C Shows, but we were unlikely to ever see most of that stuff anyway. "Hidden Gems" was my favorite part and they killed that off a couple years ago. 

2 hours ago, DEAN said:

People need to realize how sleazy and horrible wrestling was and is.

We all know WWE (and pro wrestling as a whole) is sleazy and horrible and has been forever. But i feel like this argument is dangerously close to "we need the Confederacy statues to remind us of what not to do" which is just silly. There's no shortage of examples that show just how goddamn shitty this business 

 

sorry to whoever this was, but i'm not digging through multiple pages of responses any more. Somebody suggested a sit down introduction to problematic segments, discussing what the issue was, what the context was, and why it needs this warning. I think this is the best take yet. Deleting streaming video that's been widely available for years will never erase it. Forcing viewers to confront the issue at least brings attention to it.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Fair enough. But you're smart enough to see that's what you're also doing in here as well.

Yep, making sound and rational arguments. 

Quote

I disagree with you giving yourself an out for that being okay just because they are running a business. That's a little intellectually dishonest in my opinion.

Not really. I used to work for Walmart Corporate on the .com ecommerce side and just started working for JB Hunt corporate. If I came in here and said "mmmkay businesses are bad", I would have absolutely no leg to stand on. That's not my bag. However, I will call out shit that I know is incredibly abhorrent. That's not giving myself an out. That's understanding how businesses operate and knowing how the machine runs. Moreover, it has nothing to do with removing this or that when you can do one thing and not affect everything else. 

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But to me it's hard to accept someone's forceful tone in telling me I'm wrong when you're doing a version of the exact same thing. 

It only comes off as forceful because you have no way to defend yourself. It's a natural defense mechanism. No matter how hard you try, you cannot make it right. Internally, if that makes you feel funny and not know how to react, that's probably when you break out the notebook and start taking notes. Like I said, I had my own learning experiences here. Shit, you live and you learn.

Quote

Surely you can see how that comes off as you having your cake and eating it too?

This sounds exactly like, "I can't believe black people can control the N word and get to say it too!". Goddamn buddy, I hate when marginalized groups get to have a little power too!

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, twiztor said:

sorry to whoever this was, but i'm not digging through multiple pages of responses any more.

You should probably do that if you plan on getting it right.

Quote

Forcing viewers to confront the issue at least brings attention to it.

You can't force viewers to confront stuff when WWE itself never has. Well...until now several years after the fact.

Hell, one of the issues might be that people have been forced to confront it due to its availability. As a black person, I can say that it hasn't done a tremendous job of educating people as is.