DECEMBER 2020 WRESTLING TALK.

[The Natural]

4 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Brock Lesnar winning the Money in the Bank briefcase was worth it for this, Brock Party.

 

This as well.

[AxB]

Darius Lockhart just posted an interesting fact on Twitter: Impact's next PPV main event (Rich Swann vs Chris Bey) will be the first time a major show has had two black wrestlers fighting for the World title as a main event, since Booker vs Rock at SS 2001.

Lord only knows the time it happened before that. Presumably something in the territorial era.

[Eoae]

3 hours ago, AxB said:

Darius Lockhart just posted an interesting fact on Twitter: Impact's next PPV main event (Rich Swann vs Chris Bey) will be the first time a major show has had two black wrestlers fighting for the World title as a main event, since Booker vs Rock at SS 2001.

Lord only knows the time it happened before that. Presumably something in the territorial era.

Not quite the same thing, but didn't Lashley and MVP vs. Street Profits main-event RAW a few months ago?  I'm not sure I'd consider weekly tv during the Covid era a major show, though.

It is annoying that Vince is pushing a number of black wrestlers right now and (A) they're all in tag teams; and (B) they can't seem to stay away from each other.  Since they won the tag belts back, New Day has wrestled Street Profits at a PPV and are feuding with the Hurt Business.  Street Profits Smackdown run so far has been a mini-feud with New Day and pumping Big E for info in "zany" backstage skits.

I'm hoping Big E eventually gets a hard push, because he really should, but I don't have a lot of faith in Vince,  I kinda expect a Big E push to come with a heel turn that turns him into "generic menacing black guy #73".

[odessasteps]

Maybe the colonizers will give him his last name back. 

[Spontaneous]

https://www.tokyoreporter.com/crime/ex-pro-wrestler-killer-khan-accused-of-hit-and-run-on-bicycle/

I don't think Skandar Akbar can save him on this one.

[Sammo~!]

As far as wrestling crimes go, a bicycle hit and run resulting in a broken tooth is surprisingly wholesome. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Sammo~!

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

A drive-by mongolian chop?

[Spontaneous]

Hey, at least the guy sold it well. Didn't expose the business.

[ChesterCopperpot]

JrsBBQAnon

 

[Peck]

Odd thing is didn't JR have at least one relative or in-law pass away from COVID earlier in the year?

[odessasteps]

14 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

It's a small thing, and I have no idea what it costs, but the snow for Sting's entrance in AEW is a great effect. One of those things that I'm shocked hasn't been used by someone before, especially in a time when pyro is less common.

Maybe someone at TNT found the box left over from Glacier.

[Dog]

One more reason to want JR off my TV and out of my consciousness.

Also, Colby Lopez is Steve Corino's son, with space roboticist Jennifer Lopez. I thought that was common knowledge.

[Shartnado]

42 minutes ago, Dog said:

Also, Colby Lopez is Steve Corino's son, with space roboticist Jennifer Lopez. I thought that was common knowledge.

Now THIS actually rings a bell!

[LoneWolf&Subs]

6 hours ago, L_W_P said:

It's a small thing, and I have no idea what it costs, but the snow for Sting's entrance in AEW is a great effect. One of those things that I'm shocked hasn't been used by someone before, especially in a time when pyro is less common.

I’m not sure, I think it’s bubble snow(Like how Disney does it during Christmas). Because those don’t look like snowflakes on the camera lens. Although that “snow” appears heavy too. It doesn’t float like bubble snow.

Edited December 10, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Guest Edwin]

Am listening to a Chicky Starr interview.

He was asked about the Bruiser Brody incident. He said there were backstage rumblings about the incident, but no one knew exactly. He had a tag match with Rambo Ron Starr vs. The Invader after the incident happened and they were both ready in case Invader #1 tried to pull something on them, i.e.; he and/or Rambo were armed.

The details of the death hadn't been made public until the following morning. That afternoon they had a show in Mayagüez and Chicky said he had to wrestle twice on the card as all of the foreign wrestlers no showed.

He said he was close to Brody and even stayed at his house when he did some tours in Texas. They would also travel together when they did tours in the Caribbean.

The yakuza at one point flew to Puerto Rico and arrived at a CSP show in Caguas looking for Invader #1, however Victor Quiñones was there and he knew them as he lived in Japan for several years and had founded W★ING and IWA JAPAN and he was able to step in before anything happened.

As per usual, he left WWC for IWA over payment problems. I'm sure you're noticing the trend here where everyone eventually leaves as Carlos Colón and Victor Jovica struggle to pay them time or at all in some cases.

Chicky claims IWA in Puerto Rico was bleeding money at the start and Quiñones had lost nearly $1M before he and Victor the Bodyguard arrived in the company. Could be true/maybe an exaggeration of the impact his arrival had. I know IWA had a solid connection with WWE and they even got The Rock, Benoit, Jericho, Kane, X-Pac, The Hardy Boyz, Edge and Christian, Kurt Angle, Hardcore Holly, The Dudley Boyz, Undertaker, Viscera, Mideon, Val Venis, etc. during the Attitude Era for shows and they were doing massive business with constant sold out shows all over the island.

Did WWE even allow The Rock during his peak work elsewhere aside from this one off appearance? I know it speaks wonders of Quiñones reputation that he was able to pull it off.

[AxB]

So if anyone wanted one of those Undertaker Snoop Dogg collab shirts and hasn't ordered it yet, I'm afraid I have some bad news. They've all been delisted. Possibly that was always the plan. Possibly it wasn't the plan, but AEW announced Snoop for Dynamite this month and plans changed. Who knows?

[Ryan]

He's working for that stupid TNT show with Cody on it, so it makes sense.

[Technico Support]

17 hours ago, ChesterCopperpot said:

JrsBBQAnon

 

 

16 hours ago, Peck said:

Odd thing is didn't JR have at least one relative or in-law pass away from COVID earlier in the year?

Odds are thirsty-ass JR just said something agreeable because he saw a pretty blonde woman in the profile pic.

[Ziggy]

8 hours ago, AxB said:

So if anyone wanted one of those Undertaker Snoop Dogg collab shirts and hasn't ordered it yet, I'm afraid I have some bad news. They've all been delisted. Possibly that was always the plan. Possibly it wasn't the plan, but AEW announced Snoop for Dynamite this month and plans changed. Who knows?

If Sasha wasn't a top "draw" for Smackdown she'd probably gotten the MVP losing streak treatment. I thought it was cool Snoop and Taker got to collaborate especially because you can tell Snoop seemed to be a legit Mark for Undertaker on their Live on Instagram,  pardon the pun.

[El Boricua]

13 hours ago, Edwin said:

Am listening to a Chicky Starr interview.

He was asked about the Bruiser Brody incident. He said there were backstage rumblings about the incident, but no one knew exactly. He had a tag match with Rambo Ron Starr vs. The Invader after the incident happened and they were both ready in case Invader #1 tried to pull something on them, i.e.; he and/or Rambo were armed.

The details of the death hadn't been made public until the following morning. That afternoon they had a show in Mayagüez and Chicky said he had to wrestle twice on the card as all of the foreign wrestlers no showed.

He said he was close to Brody and even stayed at his house when he did some tours in Texas. They would also travel together when they did tours in the Caribbean.

The yakuza at one point flew to Puerto Rico and arrived at a CSP show in Caguas looking for Invader #1, however Victor Quiñones was there and he knew them as he lived in Japan for several years and had founded W★ING and IWA JAPAN and he was able to step in before anything happened.

As per usual, he left WWC for IWA over payment problems. I'm sure you're noticing the trend here where everyone eventually leaves as Carlos Colón and Victor Jovica struggle to pay them time or at all in some cases.

Chicky claims IWA in Puerto Rico was bleeding money at the start and Quiñones had lost nearly $1M before he and Victor the Bodyguard arrived in the company. Could be true/maybe an exaggeration of the impact his arrival had. I know IWA had a solid connection with WWE and they even got The Rock, Benoit, Jericho, Kane, X-Pac, The Hardy Boyz, Edge and Christian, Kurt Angle, Hardcore Holly, The Dudley Boyz, Undertaker, Viscera, Mideon, Val Venis, etc. during the Attitude Era for shows and they were doing massive business with constant sold out shows all over the island.

Did WWE even allow The Rock during his peak work elsewhere aside from this one off appearance? I know it speaks wonders of Quiñones reputation that he was able to pull it off.

Overall, it's an enjoyable listen. You get Chicky talking and giving his thoughts on his career and the local wrestling scene then and now. There are some details about things that aren’t exactly right if you fact check them (be it due to being so long ago or due to wrestler hyperbole), but it’s an interesting listen. You also hear that Chicky is still angling for that one more match with Invader he’s been after since 2017 (sends Invader a hello early on related to this and then mentions later on that there’s one thing missing to cap off his career which would be that one more match).

When this interview came out I did a whole 'tracer'/fact check of sorts about the Yakuza story, since it's one that gets talked about. My eventual conclusion abut what this may be is as follows. It's important to mention that Chicky is not the one that brings up the subject, the interviewer is the one that first brings this topic up. He asks Chicky if he can corroborate some information other people have told him, if it’s true that a group of Japanese mafia, Yakuza, came to Puerto Rico and turned up at WWC/CSP events. Here’s Chicky’s response to this (first the transcription in Spanish, then what he said translated into English):

“Lamentablemente sí. Aquí llego un grupo de japoneses una vez, fue en la Cancha Bajo Techo de Caguas, me acuerdo, no se me olvida. Gracias a Dios que Vitin Quiñonez estaba esa noche ahí. Y Vitin Quñonez pues conocía a todos estos japoneses, acuérdate que la IWA nace en Japón no en Puerto Rico, y Vitin vivió 10 años en Japón y tenía conocimiento de todas estas personas. Y Vitin fue la persona que habló con todos estos japoneses que venían directamente a hacer su trabajo. Su trabajo era el Invader número 1. Pero gracias a Dios Vitin habló con ellos, conversaron, y no pasó nada. Que sucedió de ese día en adelante desconozco.”

“Regrettably yes. A group of Japanese arrived here once, it was at the Cancha Bajo Techo in Caguas, I remember, I don’t forget it. Thank God that Vitin Quiñonez was there that night. And Vitin Quñonez well he knew all of these Japanese, remember that the IWA began in Japan not in Puerto Rico, and Vitin lived 10 years in Japan and had knowledge of all of these people. And Vitin was the person that spoke with all of these Japanese that were coming directly to do their job. Their job was Invader #1. But thank God that Vitin spoke with them, they conversed, and nothing happened. What happened from that day onwards I don’t know.”

Now, is there any fire to this smoke? I honestly don’t know. But, if this did happen, let’s see if we can place the timeframe for it. Although Chicky mentions Victor’s years of living in Japan and his knowledge of these people, I don’t think that comes into play here. Because if it did, then that would mean the incident would have taken place after Victor had lived over in Japan (‘he had lived 10 years over there'), which would place it around when IWAPR would have started up. AFAIK, Victor had left CSP by 1992 and hadn’t worked for them since, so no way he would have been there to speak with the Japanese if that were the case. So that would place our timeframe between August 1988 to about early 1992 or so.

But, Chicky says that he remembers the incident well, which suggests he was there that night in Caguas. So that would narrow the timeframe further, since Chicky left CSP near the end of August 1990. So now we’re looking at a two-year span. Invader was out of action until March of 89, but reportedly was working office duties again from Nov of 88.  So that could narrow the timeframe further if one wishes.

The question I have is if Victor’s knowledge and contacts of Japan were developed enough at this point in time for him to be able to handle this incident happening if it occurred just as stated. We know he was involved in FMW and that he was involved in the angle during Onita’s visit at the end of August (he's there in the pictures that were taken). Mr. Pogo had also been wrestling for most of that span in CSP (and was also involved in the Onita angle), so there’s a way for connections to start being made. So, if this supposedly happened, it looks like it may have been before Onita showed up wanting to do the angle for the FMW anniversary show, which may seem weird when thinking about the timing unless you assume this was a first attempt and then believe the whole conspiracy theory regarding the motives for Onita wanting to bring Invader to Japan. That also assumes Victor already had the connections and experience to call these guys off somehow, which I’m not completely sold on (Victor Quiñones in 1990 doesn't look to have built up either the connections or pull to call of the Yakuza). If it was after Onita’s visit, then Chicky wasn’t with the company anymore, so it’s odd that he remembers it so well as if it was something that happened with him there.

Third possibility I’m thinking. Could it be possible that this group came during Onita’s visit? Was it mafia or could it have been an entourage that was assumed to be/misrepresented as mafia? Maybe it was mafia. But you know what, what if it was the group of Japanese press there for Onita’s angle (which was done at the WWC offices) that had decided to show up at the next house show card trying to get pictures and comments from Invader, who had no idea of what Onita had done (this has been said by several people involved, that Invader had no idea what Onita was up to and in fact after the initial pull apart had had left, leaving Onita to cut himself and try to pass it off as if he were stabbed).

And Victor, possibly in on the angle Onita was working (since looking at this initially the photographer Scott Romer did an interview where he basically says that Victor was in on it with Onita and Invader didn't know), he ran interference so they wouldn’t find out and told everyone once he got rid of them that they were mafia looking to get Invader, which may have ensured the other locals not going near the Japanese to ask them what they were doing there if they were perceived as a threat. They were already working on hiding the intent of doing the stabbing angle pictures, would they also pull something like this as well? Victor was involved in in the stabbing pic deal, not a stretch to assume he may have been involved here also.  By the way, according to Bahu’s FMW history recaps, Onita traveled to Puerto Rico on Aug. 29 for this whole deal. Guess where the Sept 1 card took place from? Cancha Bajo Techo de Caguas. So what I'm thinking is that locally it's a case of mistaken or misrepresented identity, with Onita coming up with the Yakuza story later to try to counter the heat he was getting for doing the pictures and booking the match. 

A couple of quick notes of other things mentioned in the interview. I didn't take Chicky saying they were on alert to mean they were armed (he never says they were armed at any point, just that they were on alert in case anything was up in the ring), what I understood it to be is that they were on alert in case Invader tried to shoot or start anything. And then he says that nothing happened, it turned out to be an excellent match and Invader wrestled normally (which shocked Chicky). What's interesting is that Chicky says it was the scheduled tag match that took place, while Ron Starr in his book says that it was changed to a singles match between Invader and himself. 

The other thing is that Chicky is the only person to say the card in Mayaguez took place, every single other person and/or source that talks about his says the card was cancelled due to the lack of wrestlers that showed up. So that's one claim that's probably not correct or a bit misremembered (unless you assume that everyone else is misremembering or wrong).

Edited December 11, 2020 by El Boricua
Fixed some typos

[AxB]

Hahahahahaha.

[odessasteps]

 

[Guest Edwin]

 

5 hours ago, El Boricua said:

It's important to mention that Chicky is not the one that brings up the subject, the interviewer is the one that first brings this topic up. He asks Chicky if he can corroborate some information other people have told him, if it’s true that a group of Japanese mafia, Yakuza, came to Puerto Rico and turned up at WWC/CSP events.

Yeah, he's the one who brings it up, but it's a story that I don't think had made the rounds until this interview dropped. (Could be something he purely made up and Chicky went along with or someone like Quiñones told him and he went with as I know he was close to Quiñones as he was a photographer for IWA at the time).

5 hours ago, El Boricua said:

Now, is there any fire to this smoke? I honestly don’t know. But, if this did happen, let’s see if we can place the timeframe for it. Although Chicky mentions Victor’s years of living in Japan and his knowledge of these people, I don’t think that comes into play here. Because if it did, then that would mean the incident would have taken place after Victor had lived over in Japan (‘he had lived 10 years over there'), which would place it around when IWAPR would have started up. AFAIK, Victor had left CSP by 1992 and hadn’t worked for them since, so no way he would have been there to speak with the Japanese if that were the case. So that would place our timeframe between August 1988 to about early 1992 or so.

But, Chicky says that he remembers the incident well, which suggests he was there that night in Caguas. So that would narrow the timeframe further, since Chicky left CSP near the end of August 1990. So now we’re looking at a two-year span. Invader was out of action until March of 89, but reportedly was working office duties again from Nov of 88.  So that could narrow the timeframe further if one wishes.

The question I have is if Victor’s knowledge and contacts of Japan were developed enough at this point in time for him to be able to handle this incident happening if it occurred just as stated. We know he was involved in FMW and that he was involved in the angle during Onita’s visit at the end of August (he's there in the pictures that were taken). Mr. Pogo had also been wrestling for most of that span in CSP (and was also involved in the Onita angle), so there’s a way for connections to start being made. So, if this supposedly happened, it looks like it may have been before Onita showed up wanting to do the angle for the FMW anniversary show, which may seem weird when thinking about the timing unless you assume this was a first attempt and then believe the whole conspiracy theory regarding the motives for Onita wanting to bring Invader to Japan. That also assumes Victor already had the connections and experience to call these guys off somehow, which I’m not completely sold on (Victor Quiñones in 1990 doesn't look to have built up either the connections or pull to call of the Yakuza). If it was after Onita’s visit, then Chicky wasn’t with the company anymore, so it’s odd that he remembers it so well as if it was something that happened with him there.

Third possibility I’m thinking. Could it be possible that this group came during Onita’s visit? Was it mafia or could it have been an entourage that was assumed to be/misrepresented as mafia? Maybe it was mafia. But you know what, what if it was the group of Japanese press there for Onita’s angle (which was done at the WWC offices) that had decided to show up at the next house show card trying to get pictures and comments from Invader, who had no idea of what Onita had done (this has been said by several people involved, that Invader had no idea what Onita was up to and in fact after the initial pull apart had had left, leaving Onita to cut himself and try to pass it off as if he were stabbed).

And Victor, possibly in on the angle Onita was working (since looking at this initially the photographer Scott Romer did an interview where he basically says that Victor was in on it with Onita and Invader didn't know), he ran interference so they wouldn’t find out and told everyone once he got rid of them that they were mafia looking to get Invader, which may have ensured the other locals not going near the Japanese to ask them what they were doing there if they were perceived as a threat. They were already working on hiding the intent of doing the stabbing angle pictures, would they also pull something like this as well? Victor was involved in in the stabbing pic deal, not a stretch to assume he may have been involved here also.  By the way, according to Bahu’s FMW history recaps, Onita traveled to Puerto Rico on Aug. 29 for this whole deal. Guess where the Sept 1 card took place from? Cancha Bajo Techo de Caguas. So what I'm thinking is that locally it's a case of mistaken or misrepresented identity, with Onita coming up with the Yakuza story later to try to counter the heat he was getting for doing the pictures and booking the match. 

That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't dug deep and just posted cliff notes of what I could remember was said in the interview. I know Savio mentioned in an interview with the same person who interviewed Chicky and Savio said he was arriving at the offices when they were recording the angle and they told him they didn't want anyone there.

The interviewer says his understanding was the theory where Invader was to fly to Japan to get taken care of over there and Savio said Quiñones spoke with him during a tour of W★ING and told him he wanted to still bring Invader over and Savio opposed. However, details aren't provided if the goal was to continue the angle separately from FMW or if he was solely going to bring him over to work a tour or whatnot. W★ING wasn't founded until 1991, so it would be after the original angle was taped and dropped. 

When they were both working in IWA (Savio and Invader), Invader asked him why he got stopped from being booked in Japan and Savio told him he did it to save his life (so it seems like Savio was onboard with that theory as well).

5 hours ago, El Boricua said:

A couple of quick notes of other things mentioned in the interview. I didn't take Chicky saying they were on alert to mean they were armed (he never says they were armed at any point, just that they were on alert in case anything was up in the ring), what I understood it to be is that they were on alert in case Invader tried to shoot or start anything. And then he says that nothing happened, it turned out to be an excellent match and Invader wrestled normally (which shocked Chicky). What's interesting is that Chicky says it was the scheduled tag match that took place, while Ron Starr in his book says that it was changed to a singles match between Invader and himself. 

The other thing is that Chicky is the only person to say the card in Mayaguez took place, every single other person and/or source that talks about his says the card was cancelled due to the lack of wrestlers that showed up. So that's one claim that's probably not correct or a bit misremembered (unless you assume that everyone else is misremembering or wrong).

Given most timeframes in a lot of these interviews are all over the place and how they are trying to work in some of them (Invader #3 agreeing with Manny Fernandez and saying the diving knee blood vomiting was a shoot which is questionable), I'd be more inclined to believe Ron than Chicky.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Edwin

[Wyld Samurai]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:39 AM, The Natural said:

 

This as well.

Now this is good shit, pal!

Also might be the last RAW I actually watched.

[Cobra Commander]

It’s possible I should stop smoking peyote because one of my dreams last night involved Marc Mero, under the name Johnny B. Badd, being elected to represent me in Congress.