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Looking at the Wrestlemania thread... post-return Brock Lesnar. Not the individual, or the performer (although it's easy to look like a beast when you're actually hitting guys), but the effect he had on the company. You know how they always say Andre never got a real title run because how do you make his opponents seem credible? Post-return Brock was given that same mystique... and the title. And that really put the nail in the coffin of the current main event scene.

It was bad enough the part-timers overshadowed the full-time guys. Bad enough that guys like Rock and Batista could saunter back through the door and into a WrestleMania main event. But here's a guy who's pushed to overshadow the guys who overshadow the full timers. A guy who was never really portrayed as in danger of losing. And a guy who, if he did lose, just went away for a while, then came back to do it all over again.

I don't blame the man, but in some ways he's the poster child for a lot of what's gone wrong over the last 8-10 years.

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Is Double J more or less the pro wrestling version of the Peter Principle? He did seem to rise to his level of incompetence.

The thing I find strange is that, after being a good fiery young babyface early in his career, he basically worked heel his entire prime. I don't think he worked face again until years into TNA.

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1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

Is Double J more or less the pro wrestling version of the Peter Principle? He did seem to rise to his level of incompetence.

The thing I find strange is that, after being a good fiery young babyface early in his career, he basically worked heel his entire prime. I don't think he worked face again until years into TNA.

he was face at first in WCW also. Was a bland face there but I agree. As a kid reading Apter mags they really Pushed JJ as the second coming of Bret Hart. 

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On 11/4/2020 at 8:00 PM, Shane said:

Currently, it's Brian Cage by a mile. He's sloppy as hell and stylistically, is pretty much the opposite of what I'm looking for in a pro wrestler.

 

I had a thought a while ago, that Brian Cage is almost too athletic for his own good. It's like if Batista did a moonsault. If you are the biggest guy in the room you don't need to be blowing 619s

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6 hours ago, paintedbynumbers said:

he was face at first in WCW also. Was a bland face there but I agree. As a kid reading Apter mags they really Pushed JJ as the second coming of Bret Hart. 

Was that when he was doing the Horsemen never ending "are they breaking up" stuff? I only barely remember his first WCW run, even though I watched a good chunk of Nitro from that time period last year or early this year.

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3 hours ago, zendragon said:

I had a thought a while ago, that Brian Cage is almost too athletic for his own good. It's like if Batista did a moonsault. If you are the biggest guy in the room you don't need to be blowing 619s

WWE essentially has destroyed Keith Lee because they agree with this type of narrow minded thinking on what pro wrestling must be (which is why their product is pretty bad right now). If everyone works the same exact style and does the same exact thing nobody stands out. Guys that size who can do things those guys can do should do them because it makes them stand out.

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I always looked at Jarrett as kind of a wrestler's wrestler.  Much like Larry David was considered a stand-up comic's stand-up comic.  

 

He did the little things that the fans don't notice but that the other wrestlers liked when working in the ring with him.  They don't want to work with a guy that'll potato them, a guy that has bad footwork, a guy that gets out of position and throws their timing off, etc.  And he grew up in the business and was passionate about the business.

 

But that doesn't translate into great matches and drawing a ton of money.  And Jarrett seemed to have the attitude that he belonged with the Flair's and Hogan's of the world and that just didn't resonate with the fans.  And then he ends up owning his own company and pushing himself to the moon.

 

 

 

HoC

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On 11/4/2020 at 4:31 PM, supremebve said:

Not liking Dusty is just plain inexcusable. He's no great worker,  but he is everything else I could possibly want in a pro wrestler. He's on the short list of best pro wrestlers of all time unless you're 100% dedicated on being an internet workrate fan. 

I didn't like Dusty growing up.  Being from NY, I just didn't get the gimmick and I saw him as this fat guy that talked like an idiot.  As I got smarter to the business I wasn't buying his super-cowboy type gimmick that he had.

 

As I got older, I started to greatly appreciate Dusty as a worker.  I don't think he was a bad worker, at all.  I could have done without all of those bionic elbows, but he knew how to work the crowd in a match and was great working main event style which a main event talent needs to know how to work.  Then I saw more of his best promos that I missed out on before and understood why Dusty was so great.  Particularly when I saw young, heel Dusty who was a bumping freak.

 

 

 

 

HoC

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On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 PM, BobbyWhioux said:

we could easily have just as many varying suggestions for the criteria as we'll have for who best meets it.

Is a boring worker more loathsome than a dangerous one?  Or one that's business-exposing levels of bad?  How much does card position matter?  Because a boring/unsafe/bad worker can do a lot more damage to fan enjoyment in the main event than if they're getting squashed in the opener.  How much does career longevity matter

Do they have to offend you or merely bore you, and how much weight do you assign to shitty wrestling, tasteless gimmick, or cringe promo?  And this still doesn't touch on how much the artist being personally contemptible should overshadow it all. 

For me it boils more down to the wrestler being all about themselves.  It's a give-take, take-give business.  Not a take-take business.

Warrior hurt people and didn't care.  He only stopped grabbing people's balls on the military press slam when HTM told him to knock it off or he wouldn't put him over.  

Sid was far more safe than say Vader, but Sid didn't give two shits and continued to look like shit in the ring and do the bare minimum, collect his money and move on.  At least with Vader his dangerous incidents were accidental and he tried hard to put the opponents over.  

One can be a boring worker, but if they are not trying to be that's a different issue.  Or if they are not finding a way to undeservedly get a push, it's completely different.

 

 

 

HoC

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6 hours ago, sabremike said:

WWE essentially has destroyed Keith Lee because they agree with this type of narrow minded thinking on what pro wrestling must be (which is why their product is pretty bad right now). If everyone works the same exact style and does the same exact thing nobody stands out. Guys that size who can do things those guys can do should do them because it makes them stand out.

This so many times! I remember when there was talk (by HBK, apparently) that Ahmed Johnson shouldn't do the flying stuff. I say fuck that noise. If you can do it without killing someone, you should do it. In Johnson's case that may be doubtful, but HBK wasn't concerned for other people's health, but instead his own image as a high flyer.

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The point is that Cage's high flying  sometimes can closer to Ahmed Johnson with the misses. Now I'm certainly of the mind that a good wrestling program has a bit of everything on it. Cage is just a guy who would be well served to dial back on the MOVEZ and use more psychology 

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7 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I'm of two minds about the big guys flying. Keith Lee, I don't mind it. Hangman Page I do. Cage, that's kind of his gimmick so he kind of has to do it. Doesn't mean I like it much though. It was fun at first in LU but nowadays...

Hangman Page is listed at 228, which means he's probably 215 tops.  That's a cruiserweight until about 15 years ago.

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1 minute ago, Curt McGirt said:

(I just don't like people doing standing SSPs) ?

I think the SSP is the first move that was more, "look at this cool thing I can do," instead of "look how devastating this move looks."  A top rope SSP makes sense, but the standing version doesn't really look impactful at all.  The 450 on the other hand always looks as impactful as it does spectacular.  

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23 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

Is Double J more or less the pro wrestling version of the Peter Principle? He did seem to rise to his level of incompetence.

The thing I find strange is that, after being a good fiery young babyface early in his career, he basically worked heel his entire prime. I don't think he worked face again until years into TNA.

This pretty much nails it. JJ was consistently pushed to just a higher level than he should have been. Lots of guys like that, Paul Roma was a perfectly good mid-card guy, he just wasn't a horseman. JJ had a very punchable face and with that accent, simply no chance of getting over anywhere else. 

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When Double JJ did The Stroke off the apron into a guardrail on TNA, I knew there was no light of hope left in this world. When a man literally jumps with you in an even more contrived way than a Spanish Fly, it's all over.

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15 hours ago, sabremike said:

WWE essentially has destroyed Keith Lee because they agree with this type of narrow minded thinking on what pro wrestling must be (which is why their product is pretty bad right now).

Lee did a somersault plancha just a week or two ago (admittedly a botched one). He still does his high flying stuff. Lee has been screwed up on the main roster because they debuted him to early with no plan remotely in place.

Edited by Eivion
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On WWE booking of late:

How can you not be pushing and making money with Keith Lee?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Ricochet?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Aleister Black?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Andrade?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Angel Garza?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Big E?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Chad Gable?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Killian Dane?

How can you not be pushing and making money with Isiah Scott?

I see any of the folks (and this is off the top of my head and having not watched any WWE shows for the past year+) as worth investing in and potentially able to hold their own at the top of the card. Politics? $$$? Vince? Fear of the new? It is mind-boggling.

- RAF, befuddled as well

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Of the names mentioned, the Harris Brothers, Brock Lesnar when he phones it in, Austin Aries, Nia Jax and Enzo are on my most hated list with Hulk Hogan in first place. Fuck you, Hulk Hogan. One more name I'd add, Low Ki. I could never get the appeal of Low Ki unlike Bryan Danielson, Samoa Joe and CM Punk straight away, especially Bryan.

Edited by The Natural
Forgot Enzo. Cheers Ultimo Necro.
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