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Payback VI - 8/30/2020


Dolfan in NYC

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18 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Lesnar is in a weird spot. Someone noticed that any mention of him and his merch were all pulled from WWE.com. I don't think he's in the alumni section yet though.

Lesnar’s last known WWE contract finished up at the end of May. Maybe there is some contractual negotiations going on right now between Lesnar and WWE. It’s been 90 days since Lesnar’s contract ended so I’m assuming this gets done pretty soon between the 2 parties. 

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Honestly, WWE doesn't need Lesnar. No one does. I don't think he moves the needle in a meaningful way in wrestling. I sure as hell don't want to see him in AEW and I don't even think he'd make a difference with Impact given how small their audience is. What you're getting with Lesnar is someone you pay 3, 4, or even 5 times as much as anyone else to essentially create booking problems around your top title. 

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There's a great Brock Lesnar from 2012-2015. Highlights include the wild Extreme Rules match with John Cena from Extreme Rules 2012 (*****), the SummerSlam 2014 squash of Cena, vs. Roman Reigns at WrestleMania XXXI in one of the best matches in the show's history (*****) and against the Undertaker at SummerSlam 2015/Hell in a Cell 2015 though I prefer the SS bout.

Brock Lesnar from 2016 on phoned it in with only a few exceptions, vs. AJ Styles at Survivor Series 2017 and Daniel Bryan at the same show a year on. I was and still am sick of Brock Lesnar.

Edited by The Natural
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The Golden Role Models have been the best part of WWE programming since the pandemic began and dare I say in years. We knew Sasha was a great heel but Bayley is a revelation. Trying to rank "who is the best woman's wrestler since NXT broke big" is so incredibly difficult. My current rankings:

1) BAYLEY. Bayley was the best natural face the WWE developed in decades. She had arguably the two best women's wrestling matches in WWE history against Sasha. They kept her back on NXT so she could anchor the transition to whoever was going to be the next big thing, and she carried that mantle perfectly. She had a really good initial face run (including a banger vs. Charlotte) but then had a lot of middling material. But her heel turn has been magnificent. She's been the best villain on the show and has captured Karen Obnoxiousness and manipulative garbage person to its fullest. 

2) CHARLOTTE. The Queen is the best natural athlete in the WWE and has had more high-end matches then all of the women. She's been in a few iconic moments -- tapping out to Sasha between the ring rail, and that great brawl against Becky and Rousey. People hate on her because she's always in the mix... yet she should always be in the mix. I have her beneath Bayley because Charlotte's not a good face on the main stage, although I thought her face work in NXT was solid. She's great as the evil queen, though.

3) BECKY LYNCH. The biggest star in the WWE for a few months and a well-deserved winner of a WrestleMania main event. The single biggest moment in WWE women's wrestling, and maybe since Daniel Bryan on top of the cage after breaking free from the Wyatts, was her broken face on that Raw invasion. Her acting on the side of the feud against Charlotte that was her ultimate breakout was superb. She was a fantastic face on Smackdown for a really long time, which is what caused the groundswell of her popularity since she clearly deserved more TV time. Her post-WM run though was middling at best. The reason was because she got over as a badass rebel, but now there's no system or anything for her to rebel against. She was also in fourth place coming out of NXT.

4) SASHA BANKS. She's the most consistent of the four in terms of in-ring work and playing a character. That I rank her fourth is just a testament to how friggin' good WWE Women's Wrestling has been since this all started. She's had non-stop great matches and had some really big moments since the call-up began. I think she'll be rising up the list though once she turns on Bayley and she gets to play the face in the next chapter of their feud, which is going to be a great lifelong battle. I hope we get a replay of their Ironwoman match at a main event of a PPV., this time with Bayley being the awful person but Sasha tapping into her Eddie Guerrero Worship to win. Her best moment since the call up began was probably when she coyly waved to the highly underrated Dana Brooke in that classic against Charlotte on Raw.

5) ALEXA BLISS. She's not as good in-ring as the above four or Asuka or Shayna. But she's the best at acting out of everyone on the entire roster. She stole the rug from the division for a while because she was so good at playing a mean girl with amazing delivery, tone of voice and especially her facial reactions. She was not afraid to look ridiculous, which is also a key component of making a sniveling heel work. But her face work teaming with Nikki until tensions arose only recently was really great and very much surprising. She had "can only play a great heel" written all over her but I was completely wrong. She's someone who will always command screen time because she's so great at that end of things, which is just as important as in-ring work and even more so in a lot of cases. Hosting a TV show segment lets other angles unfold to advance other stories, and the only other people on the roster who can do that well are The Miz and Kevin Owens.

6) ASUKA. It's insane I have her sixth when you can make a case for her to go much higher. Great worker and hugely entertaining with her crazy person act. She also was able to express so much sympathy when Bayley took out Kairi Sane. That was a truly great performance. Her tag work with her was great. She's just a little below The Horsewomen and Alexa because The Horsewomen have shown they can carry the entire WWE and Alexa can anchor television for a few months at a time and Asuka's just a bit below that, but that's also because she hasn't really been able to in terms of booking and positioning. 

7) SHAYNA BAZLER. She was an all-time villain on NXT. One of the best jerk bullies ever. She'll have a few PPV Main Events before it's said and one for her.

8 RUBY RIOTT. She's a lot like Alexa in terms of her acting ability. She's also a better in-ring worker. It's too bad she got hurt because they were going to pull the trigger on her getting a title at some point. Her reformed Riott Squad stuff with Liv has been really fun so far.

9) SONYA DEVILLE/MANDY ROSE. I know it's sorta cheap to have them tied since they've broken up. But I think their pairing went from a "oh, whatever" mismatched into a really solid pairing. Sonya really shined the past few months as a great bastard. Mandy Rose had such a fun arc with Otis. Their blood feud had some great stuff. It's just too bad Sonya's real life situation is absolutely disturbing terrifying. She deservedly needs to take a break. 

10) The IICONICS. Great act. Perfect mean girl bullies without any self-awareness at all. They throw the best temper tantrums in wrestling.

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Good and interesting post, @Greggulator. I'd rank the women's wrestlers using your criteria as such doing the rest later:

6. Alexa Bliss. A favourite of mine since she started on the main roster in 2016. I think in ring she doesn't get the credit she deserves at time. First to hold the WWE RAW and Smackdown Women's Championships. Shame about the injuries.

5. Asuka was undefeated in NXT holding the NXT Women's Title for well over a year. Stop start main roster booking not helped by losing her undefeated streak to Charlotte Flair at WrestleMania XXXIV. So fluid in the ring. Heel turn helped Asuka.

4. Charlotte Flair. Talented, yes but she's won matches she needed to lose. Charlotte Flair should've done the job to Sasha Banks in the Triple Threat with Becky Lynch at WrestleMania XXXII for the first WWE Women's Championship, tapping Asuka out at WrestleMania XXXIV ending her streak retaining the WWE Smackdown Live Women's Championship and beating Rhea Ripley for the NXT Women's Championship at WrestleMania this year. Wrong results those. Ditto the Royal Rumble match this year. I'm still miffed at what Charlotte Flair did to Kairi Sane in the TLC match at TLC 2019. Unprofessional.

3. Bayley. Started and stuttered on the main roster thanks to bad booking. Amazing that someone so loveable has taken to becoming a heel as she has done. Golden Role Models are the best thing going in WWE. Shame the version's starting. Hope Bayley makes a year as WWE Smackdown Women's Champion. First Triple Crown and Grand Slam Champion in the Women's division.

2. Becky Lynch. First Smackdown Live Women's Champion who became The Man in 2018 beating the fuck out of Charlotte Flair after she lost a Triple Threat match with Carmella. Crowd erupted, highlight of the show. Went on to main event WrestleMania XXXV and hold the RAW title for a year. Miss her presence in WWE.

1. Sasha Banks. Best women's wrestler in WWE. 2015 was the year of the Legit Boss. A good chunk of women had their best ever matches with Banks opposing them: Bayley (NXT TakeOver: Brooklyn 2015 and Respect 2015 both *****), Charlotte Flair (No DQ, Falls Count Anywhere RAW, November 2016), Becky Lynch (NXT TakeOver: Rival 2015 and Hell in a Cell 2019) and Alexa Bliss (Great Balls of Fire 2017 or SummerSlam 2017). There's arguments for Nia Jax, Ronda Rousey and Asuka (main roster) as well. Pathetic Banks has never had a long run with a women's championship in the main roster. Five WWE RAW Women's Championship reigns without one successful defence.

Edited by The Natural
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54 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

The Golden Role Models have been the best part of WWE programming since the pandemic began and dare I say in years. We knew Sasha was a great heel but Bayley is a revelation. Trying to rank "who is the best woman's wrestler since NXT broke big" is so incredibly difficult. My current rankings:

1) BAYLEY. Bayley was the best natural face the WWE developed in decades. She had arguably the two best women's wrestling matches in WWE history against Sasha. They kept her back on NXT so she could anchor the transition to whoever was going to be the next big thing, and she carried that mantle perfectly. She had a really good initial face run (including a banger vs. Charlotte) but then had a lot of middling material. But her heel turn has been magnificent. She's been the best villain on the show and has captured Karen Obnoxiousness and manipulative garbage person to its fullest. 

2) CHARLOTTE. The Queen is the best natural athlete in the WWE and has had more high-end matches then all of the women. She's been in a few iconic moments -- tapping out to Sasha between the ring rail, and that great brawl against Becky and Rousey. People hate on her because she's always in the mix... yet she should always be in the mix. I have her beneath Bayley because Charlotte's not a good face on the main stage, although I thought her face work in NXT was solid. She's great as the evil queen, though.

3) BECKY LYNCH. The biggest star in the WWE for a few months and a well-deserved winner of a WrestleMania main event. The single biggest moment in WWE women's wrestling, and maybe since Daniel Bryan on top of the cage after breaking free from the Wyatts, was her broken face on that Raw invasion. Her acting on the side of the feud against Charlotte that was her ultimate breakout was superb. She was a fantastic face on Smackdown for a really long time, which is what caused the groundswell of her popularity since she clearly deserved more TV time. Her post-WM run though was middling at best. The reason was because she got over as a badass rebel, but now there's no system or anything for her to rebel against. She was also in fourth place coming out of NXT.

4) SASHA BANKS. She's the most consistent of the four in terms of in-ring work and playing a character. That I rank her fourth is just a testament to how friggin' good WWE Women's Wrestling has been since this all started. She's had non-stop great matches and had some really big moments since the call-up began. I think she'll be rising up the list though once she turns on Bayley and she gets to play the face in the next chapter of their feud, which is going to be a great lifelong battle. I hope we get a replay of their Ironwoman match at a main event of a PPV., this time with Bayley being the awful person but Sasha tapping into her Eddie Guerrero Worship to win. Her best moment since the call up began was probably when she coyly waved to the highly underrated Dana Brooke in that classic against Charlotte on Raw.

5) ALEXA BLISS. She's not as good in-ring as the above four or Asuka or Shayna. But she's the best at acting out of everyone on the entire roster. She stole the rug from the division for a while because she was so good at playing a mean girl with amazing delivery, tone of voice and especially her facial reactions. She was not afraid to look ridiculous, which is also a key component of making a sniveling heel work. But her face work teaming with Nikki until tensions arose only recently was really great and very much surprising. She had "can only play a great heel" written all over her but I was completely wrong. She's someone who will always command screen time because she's so great at that end of things, which is just as important as in-ring work and even more so in a lot of cases. Hosting a TV show segment lets other angles unfold to advance other stories, and the only other people on the roster who can do that well are The Miz and Kevin Owens.

6) ASUKA. It's insane I have her sixth when you can make a case for her to go much higher. Great worker and hugely entertaining with her crazy person act. She also was able to express so much sympathy when Bayley took out Kairi Sane. That was a truly great performance. Her tag work with her was great. She's just a little below The Horsewomen and Alexa because The Horsewomen have shown they can carry the entire WWE and Alexa can anchor television for a few months at a time and Asuka's just a bit below that, but that's also because she hasn't really been able to in terms of booking and positioning. 

7) SHAYNA BAZLER. She was an all-time villain on NXT. One of the best jerk bullies ever. She'll have a few PPV Main Events before it's said and one for her.

8 RUBY RIOTT. She's a lot like Alexa in terms of her acting ability. She's also a better in-ring worker. It's too bad she got hurt because they were going to pull the trigger on her getting a title at some point. Her reformed Riott Squad stuff with Liv has been really fun so far.

9) SONYA DEVILLE/MANDY ROSE. I know it's sorta cheap to have them tied since they've broken up. But I think their pairing went from a "oh, whatever" mismatched into a really solid pairing. Sonya really shined the past few months as a great bastard. Mandy Rose had such a fun arc with Otis. Their blood feud had some great stuff. It's just too bad Sonya's real life situation is absolutely disturbing terrifying. She deservedly needs to take a break. 

10) The IICONICS. Great act. Perfect mean girl bullies without any self-awareness at all. They throw the best temper tantrums in wrestling.

IIconics are 9 spots too low.

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3 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

Also, Paul Heyman is easily the kayfabe greatest manager of all time, right? This is his fourth world champion and he always gets the best big money deals and main events for his clients. Scott Boras doesn’t have shit on Paul E. 

Cesaro and Curtis Axel dislike this. 

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I think my biggest disappointment with Payback was that Roman still has that same shit music. That was good years ago and it's just very tired now. At the very least, I hope he switches up his gear. He has to be well enough past his hernia issues to not have to wear the vest anymore and the dude looks ripped. I'd say just go with the pans, boots, and no shirt, but that's what Braun is doing now.

Wreck Everyone and Leave Roman is quickly becoming my favorite Roman.

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2 minutes ago, Casey said:

I have issues with the idea that Becky Lynch was "the biggest star for a few months".

You mean the only real draw they had for a year and change is more than a few months?

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27 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Eh Gregg,  let's be honest here the women's division right now is on a roll and it's no coincidence that it's happened with Charlotte out of the title picture. She's good but when she's around she's constantly a title holder and everyone else suffers for it. 

I'd say the absence of Becky has had a larger impact in opening spots for Asuka and Sasha in the Raw title scene. Charlotte was in NXT the few months prior to being sidelined, having fresh matches with new opponents. You can argue that Rhea suffered for it, but her booking since then suggests nobody has a clue what to do with her -- regardless of what Charlotte did or didn't do.

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4 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

Also, Paul Heyman is easily the kayfabe greatest manager of all time, right? This is his fourth world champion and he always gets the best big money deals and main events for his clients. Scott Boras doesn’t have shit on Paul E. 

How many tag team Champs did Albano manage? Isn't it like 14 or 15? 

Id also throw out original Horsemen era JJ Dillon as a candidate. 

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2 minutes ago, Andy in Kansas said:

I'd say the absence of Becky has had a larger impact in opening spots for Asuka and Sasha in the Raw title scene. Charlotte was in NXT the few months prior to being sidelined, having fresh matches with new opponents. You can argue that Rhea suffered for it, but her booking since then suggests nobody has a clue what to do with her -- regardless of what Charlotte did or didn't do.

Booking Rhea should be easy as hell. Just do what Roman is doing. Go out, kick ass, leave with the title. It still bugs me that Charlotte beat her clean as a sheet and HHH's response, along with the response from others, was the dreaded "OH JUST WAIT AND SEE, THIS STORY ISN'T OVER YET!" Turns out it was and Rhea has done fuck all since. I really thought she could have easily slid into Becky's spot.

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