(Marvel's) Avengers, ASSEMBLE!

[Casey]

Honestly they should have just made a New Avengers game, since it seems like that's where this game is headed anyway.

Spoiler

People like She-Hulk, Kate Bishop and War Machine are in the beta files. And obviously you've got Spider-Man next year.

 

[Craig H]

5 minutes ago, Casey said:

Honestly they should have just made a New Avengers game, since it seems like that's where this game is headed anyway.

  Hide contents

People like She-Hulk, Kate Bishop and War Machine are in the beta files. And obviously you've got Spider-Man next year.

 

That was my next thought. Brings the power level down somewhat.

[RIPPA]

These are the 15 unannounced characters that dataminers have found

Spoiler

• Ant Man
• The Wasp
• Vision
• Black Panther
• Dr. Strange
• Falcon
• Mar-Vell
• Mockingbird
• Quake
• Winter Soldier
• Scarlet Witch
• Captain Marvel
• Kate Bishop
• She-Hulk
• War Machine

 

[EVA]

I finally got to play through the first two missions today.

Yeah, Hulk is definitely a problem.  He just doesn’t feel powerful enough or tank-y, at all.  Way too much of your success with him is dependent on spamming the dodge button, and that just isn’t very Hulk-ish to me.  And the way it feels like he’s running in quicksand all the time just feels bad, period.  

Worse, when you play as Ms. Marvel, she doesn’t feel demonstrably squishier or significantly less powerful.  In fact, because she moves so much quicker, can swing around the map, and doesn’t have a long wind-up mechanic for her ranged attacks (making it less likely to be interrupted, which happens way too often with Hulk), she feels way more fun to pay with.

Obviously, I’ve spent way less time playing with the other heroes so far, but the Avengers definitely don’t feel as good to play as their counterparts in other games.  Thor feels like offbrand Kratos; Cap/Widow feel like Arkham imitators.  At one point, playing as Cap, I had a nice combo broken because an enemy fell down some stairs and Cap hit an invisible wall trying to follow him down the stairs because the combat engine couldn’t handle changing levels mid-animation.

It’s wild to me that none of the characters have button-tap quick-throw ranged attacks (at least at this point in the game).  Those are pretty essential for managing enemy mobs, something Rocksteady understood.  Having to aim everything sucks.

[J.T.]

Yeah, I had a lot of shit to do for work on Friday didn't notice that the open beta was this weekend.  I am kinda pissed off but at least I got some shit done that may very well get me a promotion.

The beta closes tonight around 9PM EST, but I can't find any links to the download files.  I am guessing that it closed sometime on Friday or Saturday.

Edited August 23, 2020 by J.T.

[EVA]

I played through the snow mission with Hulk and Ms. Marvel and pretty much gave up on the game.  The combat isn’t that interesting, platforming to collect chests with these characters just feels strange and disconnected from the power fantasy of these characters(especially Hulk), and I finally started to see some of the performance issues when 2 hero characters were on screen battling at the same time.

[The Natural]

 

[J.T.]

22 hours ago, EVA said:

I played through the snow mission with Hulk and Ms. Marvel and pretty much gave up on the game.  The combat isn’t that interesting, platforming to collect chests with these characters just feels strange and disconnected from the power fantasy of these characters(especially Hulk), and I finally started to see some of the performance issues when 2 hero characters were on screen battling at the same time.

I hate platforming and I am sure that since this game involves platforming, I will probably choose the worst platforming character in the game for use as my personal toon.

The platforming issue will certainly throw more gasoline on the Spider-Man PS Exclusive dumpster fire because webbing and wall crawling.

I am pretty close to showing Squeenix and Crystal D exactly which orifice they can shove this title into.

Edited August 26, 2020 by J.T.

[EVA]

If Spidey’s web-slinging works the same way as Kamala’s stretchy-arms, people are going to HATE it.  Especially if they’ve played Insomniac’s Spidey game, where  the swinging is so effortless and intuitive.

Kamala can only grapple to specific surfaces, and there was a point in the snow mission where I kept failing a platform jump because I didn’t have her perfectly lined up with the spot on the platform she could grapple to...even though the whole platform was perfectly flat and there was no distinguishable reason why I could grapple to one spot and not the other.  It was pretty unforgiving, too.  There was no margin of error where if you got in the ballpark of the grapple point, she would reach over and grab it.  It had to be perfectly aligned.

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, EVA said:

If Spidey’s web-slinging works the same way as Kamala’s stretchy-arms, people are going to HATE it.  Especially if they’ve played Insomniac’s Spidey game, where  the swinging is so effortless and intuitive.

Kamala can only grapple to specific surfaces, and there was a point in the snow mission where I kept failing a platform jump because I didn’t have her perfectly lined up with the spot on the platform she could grapple to...even though the whole platform was perfectly flat and there was no distinguishable reason why I could grapple to one spot and not the other.  It was pretty unforgiving, too.  There was no margin of error where if you got in the ballpark of the grapple point, she would reach over and grab it.  It had to be perfectly aligned.

I own an Xbox 360 and only play that when the mood strikes me. I would really like to play Spider-Man and maybe Batman: Arkham Knight to complete the Rocksteady Arkham Trilogy. That's going on what I've seen of Insomniac's Spider-Man from the web swinging which is the most important thing to get right in a Spider-Man game, cut scenes, combat and references to the Spider-Man mythos like Rocksteady Studios did with Batman.

[J.T.]

3 hours ago, EVA said:

If Spidey’s web-slinging works the same way as Kamala’s stretchy-arms, people are going to HATE it.  Especially if they’ve played Insomniac’s Spidey game, where  the swinging is so effortless and intuitive.

Kamala can only grapple to specific surfaces, and there was a point in the snow mission where I kept failing a platform jump because I didn’t have her perfectly lined up with the spot on the platform she could grapple to...even though the whole platform was perfectly flat and there was no distinguishable reason why I could grapple to one spot and not the other.  It was pretty unforgiving, too.  There was no margin of error where if you got in the ballpark of the grapple point, she would reach over and grab it.  It had to be perfectly aligned.

Yeah, that sounds like Destiny's awful platforming.  Grass good.  Rock bad.

Then you slide down the sides of hills like they're fucking coated in Crisco.

[Craig H]

Heh. Each new character will have a $10 battle pass.

[Casey]

Which is just shit like emotes and nameplates and skins.

[Craig H]

Avengers is like the ultimate mishmash of things people don't want. It has it all. Games as a service? Yep. Exclusives for one system over another? Ok. Multiple economies and resources? They got that. Incremental upgrades for superheroes? It's there. A battle pass? How about a battle pass for every character!

The one upside to the battle pass that I think is actually fan friendly is that when you complete the battle pass for one character, you get enough currency back to pay for the next character's battle pass, and then you repeat the process.

[EVA]

I’m interested to see how the battle pass works out, both for players and Square.  Getting your money back for completing a character sounds great on the surface, but how well that works out for players will likely depend on how long it takes to complete a character vs. the rate at which they release characters.  If you’re still 20 levels away from completing Hawkeye when Ant Man (or whoever) gets released, can you be patient and finish him while everybody is running around with the new shit, or does FOMO cause you to go ahead and plunk down another $10?  Or does it turn the game into a miserable treadmill grind as you try to finish everything as fast as possible to avoid that scenario, which is kinda what Destiny season passes have become?

The cynic in me would guess that Square has balanced these releases in favor of putting players in just such a situation, where they have to either be massively engaged with the game like a second job to get everything done on time or pay extra.  And most players aren’t going to have time for the former.  I just don’t see how the economics of this model work without getting more than that extra one-time payment of $10 from most players.  They’re either really clever, positioning this as a consumer-friendly model when they know it’s not going to benefit most players, or really dumb.  Time will tell.

[Casey]

The only things that are timed are the events they just announced, which some are weekly, some are seasonal, and one type of event/game mode only happens on the weekend. The only thing anyone will miss out on are doing those events if they're busy and missing exclusive gear/maybe outfits/etc. I guess I don't understand the FOMO part, or the "get everything done on time", since none of that should apply to the free characters because all you're missing out on are the contents of the Challenge card, and it's not like you have X amount of time to complete Hawkeye's card. You could do it in 2022 if you wanted.

[EVA]

Think of it like this (just using the hypothetical  example I started with):

You’re still 20 levels away from finishing Hawkeye’s card when Ant Man and his card drops.  Of course, you can still play as Ant Man, but unless you have his card, you can’t get all the dope alternate skins and emotes that you see other people using.  That’s the FOMO part:  Everybody else has got this cool shit, and I don’t.  I know, I know—“It’s just cosmetics!” But if there’s one thing I’ve learned from the past 6 years of playing or simply being adjacent to the discourse of various games-as-a-service, it’s that there are a significant number (a majority?) of players who care DEEPLY about cosmetics and get pissed off when they feel gated from, you know, the floss dance emote or whatever.   I don’t personally get it, but it’s definitely a thing.  Developers and publishers don’t make billions of dollars in micro-transactions off this shit because gamers have an “Eh, I could take it or leave it” attitude about them.

Worse, from now on, any time spent playing with Ant Man is time you’re not spending on playing with Hawkeye to finish his card.  So, to actually get your $10 back so you can get the Ant Man card for free, you basically have to make a conscious decision not to play the new Ant Man content (that you’re probably excited to play!) until you finish Hawkeye’s card.  So, while, yes, you’re free to complete Hawkeye’s card in 2025, you’re not getting your $10 back to put toward Ant Man’s stuff until you do.  So you better get that shit done on time.

Now, let’s say you didn’t get everything done on time and the FOMO is strong with you, so you drop an extra $10 to go ahead and get Ant Man’s card.  Now you’re really on the treadmill, running a race you’re probably never going to catch up on, as you’ll be splitting your efforts between two characters’ challenge cards, which is going to make you much less efficient at finishing either one.

And then Doctor Strange hits!  WHATCHAGONNADO?

I would be genuinely surprised if this isn’t the conundrum Square is expecting/hoping to put a significant number of players in.  Just boom, boom, boom, every 2-3 months throwing a new card down on the table and calling players’ bluffs and collecting their chips.  

Which is not inherently an evil thing!  I think the ability to earn your money back is pretty cool, and the most hardcore players at the far end of the curve will really benefit from it.  However, this is an expensive game, and Square is not a gamer charity, and I suspect challenge card progression will be tuned in such a way that the vast majority of players (who aren’t playing the game like a second job) will not be able to consistently earn their $10 back in time for the next content drop and so on, requiring them to choose between being cool with missing out for a while or paying extra.  Ultimately, a relatively small number of consumers will get the full benefit of this “consumer-friendly” model.

Edited August 31, 2020 by EVA

[Casey]

I guess I just don't understand what's so bad about them giving away characters for free and giving you two paths to unlocking everything for said character. It could be worse, where you get Hawkeye/whoever for free, but you HAVE to pay $10 to unlock the Challenge card and in-game currency won't cut it. Does it suck that if you don't want to pay, and a character you really like comes out and now you have to grind using that character? I mean, I guess, yeah. If the gameplay isn't fun for you, then it's definitely going to suck. If you love it (besides the Hulk) like I do, then it's not so bad. Just depends on how long it takes to complete a card/earn credits. I'm sure in the beta it was sped up.

At the end of the day, it's all still free, but you have a choice to pay $10 to skip the "bullshit". Which, to me, isn't bullshit, because I loved the beta, but I understand a lot of people here didn't. Plus, if I'm remembering right, most of the content in the Challenge cards is just resources, gear for that character, nameplates, comics (I think?), maybe some credits, and a limited number of outfits. Again, this was all from the beta, so it could be worse or better come launch day, but the Marketplace had more skins for characters than the Challenge cards did too. So if that's kept the way it was, then the main source of FOMO (outfits) would be kept in the Marketplace - but those cost money too, and I'm also okay with that because it's cosmetics that aren't necessary to the game.

Marketplace probably opens up a lot more problems for people, though. I doubt you'll be able to directly purchase a skin with your credit card - their newest blog talked about credit packs and how much they cost, so it seems they're keeping the beta thing where the Marketplace was controlled by in-game currency that you either earn or buy bundles of. Which is fine with me, I guess?

[Craig H]

It's not even that a lot of people here didn't like the beta. I don't think I've watched a single video, read a single article, or listened to a single podcast talk about Avengers in a positive way. You're literally one of the few people I've seen who has liked it. The Giant Bombcast talked about it at length a week or 2 weeks ago where they were no longer under embargo to discuss what they saw last year. All of the problems and issues with gameplay from when it was first demoed are still present and the general feeling is that nothing has changed. Jim Sterling ripped it a new one. There's a bunch of other examples too, but I think the main point is that the negative criticism for the game isn't just limited to anyone's comments here.

Maybe the full game turns out to be fantastic, the gameplay isn't a clunky clusterfuck, and it's worth every bit of the $60 it costs. I really hope it is. I don't hope that any game winds up being trash, I mostly hope that game studios learn lessons from their mistakes. And honestly, I'll gladly get the game if it turns out to be good and worth it in a way that Destiny or Anthem aren't. 

[EVA]

9 hours ago, Casey said:

I guess I just don't understand what's so bad about them giving away characters for free and giving you two paths to unlocking everything for said character. It could be worse, where you get Hawkeye/whoever for free, but you HAVE to pay $10 to unlock the Challenge card and in-game currency won't cut it. Does it suck that if you don't want to pay, and a character you really like comes out and now you have to grind using that character? I mean, I guess, yeah. If the gameplay isn't fun for you, then it's definitely going to suck. If you love it (besides the Hulk) like I do, then it's not so bad. Just depends on how long it takes to complete a card/earn credits. I'm sure in the beta it was sped up.

 

I think you’re under a slight misconception about how the challenge cards work.  There are NOT two separate paths to the same rewards.  Each character’s challenge card has two tiers: a free tier and a premium tier, and they each have different rewards.  You will not be able to earn all the premium rewards on the free tier, nor does buying access to the premium tier automatically give you all the rewards—you still have to play to unlock them.  Destiny has started using this same model with their season passes, and I assure you: the vast majority of the good stuff you’ll actually want will be on the premium tier (which makes sense, otherwise you wouldn’t buy it).

All that said, yes, ultimately this lives and dies by how quickly you can complete all 40 tiers of a card, which is a function of A) how much XP is required to unlock a level vs. B) how quickly you can accrue XP through in-game activities.  If it only takes 30 minutes of playtime to unlock a level, that’s not bad at all.  We’d be talking about 20 hours to complete it, so a player averaging 4 hours per week could knock it out in 4-6 weeks.  Pretty casual.

However, you don’t have to raise that number very much before it gets unsustainable for most players.  Even at just an hour of playtime per level, you’re basically asking players to complete Assassin’s Creed: Odyssey to finish a card, and that is not a pace that anyone but the hardest core of devotees can keep up for months and months.

There’s still a lot we don’t know about how this system works, though, so time will tell.

Edited August 31, 2020 by EVA

[Raziel]

Mobile games have been using that Free/Premium Tier rewards for a while.  Shit, Red Dead Online uses it too (use gold to unlock the Outlaw Pass, level through it to get the rewards.  Red Dead doesn't give you the shot to recoup the 35 Gold it costs to buy it.  And unless you're grinding dailies for the Gold + Multiplier, you ain't making that 35 without dropping real money.

 

It's pretty much the new model to appease total "free" players with some stuff then entice them to drop money on the good stuff, and to give the whales something to spend on.   

[Craig H]

Magic Arena and Valorant are two other examples of the free and premium tier stuff. At least with Magic Arena, and maybe even Valorant and other games, you can get to the end of the battle pass or whatever the game calls it, plop down your $10, and get all of the premium awards up to whatever level you're at.

[EVA]

Oh yeah, it’s not a new thing at all.  Destiny is just my primary frame of reference for it.

[Craig H]

Also, I do wish Avengers had couch co-op. I'd buy it regardless of how meh it is so I could play it with my daughter because I'm sure she would get a kick out of that. It would fit in nicely with all of the Minecraft Dungeons, Diablo 3, Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, and Gauntlet Legends we've been playing lately.

[Casey]

Yeah, I hadn't read about the premium and free tiers for the new heroes' cards, but even knowing that now... still doesn't make much of a difference. Other games that do this have those things be timed, whereas Avengers doesn't.

And let's be perfectly clear - I'm seemingly the only one defending this game, and even I can admit that the stuff you get in the premium tier probably isn't even worth it. Just look at the outfits you get with any of the numerous Deluxe Editions, or the promotional skins for companies like Verizon or Virgin or 5 Gum or whatever. They aren't that great. Even the skins that aren't exclusive that'll be in the Marketplace are pretty bad, with a few exceptions (Hulk's skins from the beta being the worst offender). Everything else is, like I said, just resources and credits and emotes and nameplates.

You can make an argument for the takedowns - maybe. I'm not sure they're even needed, since the skill trees for heroes like Thor and Captain America leaked the first weekend of the beta and they are EXTENSIVE. Way, way more than the handful that was in the beta for all the playable heroes, so they seemingly purposefully unlocked only a few to show what the trees would be like and what you could unlock.