(Also Not March Madness): SECRET SANTO March 2020

[NikoBaltimore]

13 hours ago, gordi said:

I'm almost always up for checking out more wrestling... but in all sincerity your pick worked out really well for me. It's fun to try and analyse a match that blows my socks off, to try and figure out what was so great about it; and it can be even more fun to tee off on a truly terrible train wreck of a match. What I rarely do is take a long look at a "one and a half to two star" type of "just OK" match and try to figure out why I didn't either really dislike it or really like it. I honestly had a lot of fun with your pick. 

Also,  @Matt D maybe it would be fun to, in another five weeks or so (if we get that far - and it seems like we really might) to have us each assign a "so bad it's good" or "really bad, but in an interesting way" match. Raja Lion or Big Daddy or Renegade in Japan or late-days WCW type of stuff. It would be fun to read everyone having a go at some WrestleCrap level matches. 

Thanks for that.  Yesterday was particularly shitty for some reason so glad it worked out for you.  I'll see what I can find if anything.  And I would love to review wonderfully terrible matches as I think they may be more fun to do.

As for my pick I'll watch it tonight and hopefully will have my review up by tomorrow.

[DJ Hero Morganti]

Even though I am not participating, I love reading these reviews.

[SirSmUgly]

15 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Steiners vs. Beverly Brothers (Royal Rumble 1993)

This was a solid, high-energy opener. The Beverlys are pros so the Steiners aren't going to blatantly manhandle them like other teams, but will still take their licks. It's pretty plain, you have your opening shine, heels get their heat (including a choke with the tag rope which I don't think I've seen in like a century), the Steiners get their spots in (German, Tiger Driver, Frankensteiner), and we're out. No bulldog Doomsday Device but the Frankensteiner was perfect enough to be the finish -- and it still looks devastating. I don't know how Scotty always pulled it off so perfectly and never injured anybody; thankfully people are able to do it in reverse today and not kill each other, though they should stop. I'm sure this revved the crowd up and they reacted bigtime for the Steiners' moves which I'm sure some of them had never seen before. The German was big enough to get a pop even if you'd seen one a million times. As far as Beverlys go, it was pretty much a competitive squash but it worked. Enos was in WCW forever it seemed on every B- or C-show they aired after this, even though it was only two years that he was there (take in mind again for me: Goldberg Era). 

Royal Rumble 1993 was one of the shows that I had on tape as a kid, so I've seen this a thousand times. As I said when I posted it, this is a "solid, high-energy opener" to use your words that I personally elevate in my mind via rose-colored glasses. Actually, I have a major soft spot for 1993's Big Five PPVs even though only two of them were really any good at all (this Rumble and then KotR being the other). 

Scott Steiner's Frankensteiner is the first hurricanrana that I can remember ever seeing, so of course, I thought he was amazing as a kid (and he's still one of my ten favorite wrestlers ever). He had a blend of agility and power that made him a human highlight machine. 

The Steiner Bros. felt out of place in 1993 WWF for whatever reason. They fit right into early '90s WCW, and they fit right back in when they are in WCW again in 1995. Scott Steiner as a singles act post-1997 fits in anywhere; the dude just showed up in NWA and was fucking amazing in 2020 just jaw-jacking and doing limited moves in the one tag match he was in. Good matches with the Quebecers aside, though, he was totally misused in 1993/94 and Vince missed a trick by not trying to push him as a singles, assuming he didn't (I've never heard that he did). 

I am a fan of Lex Luger, but to me, Scott Steiner is the obvious dude you push in Luger's spot in 1993/94. I don't think the fans reject him like they straight rejected Luger in favor of Bret Hart. Even if we assume that Steiner gets the All-American gimmick instead, I think he does enough with it to make it successful through sheer force of personality and dope-ass moveset. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Smelly McUgly

[MORELOCK]

Didn't Enos stick around after Bloom for a while solely because he could take the Steiners' asskickings?

[Curt McGirt]

That is a wonderful "what if". They announce the debut of the Narcissist that night during the match. If it ended up being Scotty with Rick being the "brother betrayed", that would be a neat angle to run with, and you know Rick could stay over running over jobbers. Then Scotty goes All-American and boom, there's the brothers back together. You play up their athletic backgrounds there too. 

Despite the failed gimmicks, Luger was too smart to stick around with Vince. He was the guy talking union from when he first started after all. 

EDIT: I forgot that the big problem with that is that Scotty never wanted to leave his brother and I think had to be begged to do it finally in WCW. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[Matt D]

10 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Didn't Enos stick around after Bloom for a while solely because he could take the Steiners' asskickings?

For example.

 

[SirSmUgly]

19 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

That is a wonderful "what if". They announce the debut of the Narcissist that night during the match. If it ended up being Scotty with Rick being the "brother betrayed", that would be a neat angle to run with, and you know Rick could stay over running over jobbers. Then Scotty goes All-American and boom, there's the brothers back together. You play up their athletic backgrounds there too. 

Despite the failed gimmicks, Luger was too smart to stick around with Vince. He was the guy talking union from when he first started after all. 

EDIT: I forgot that the big problem with that is that Scotty never wanted to leave his brother and I think had to be begged to do it finally in WCW. 

I actually would let Luger stay as the Narcissist; I thought that it was a gimmick that was short-lived. He was knocking dudes out with that "loaded elbow" and generally was an interesting and irritating preening heel.

To me, you give the Steiners a mega-push from the jump, have them beat Money Inc. ASAP for the gold, and then just insert Scotty into Luger's spot in the body slam challenge (IIRC, Scott was one of the dudes to attempt it anyway). 

And even though Rick is no Scott Steiner, if you have to promise to push him hard as a singles or to keep him intermittently tagging with Scott to get him to agree, you should. Of course, I say this partially in hindsight, but I also know that ten-year-old me would have absolutely bought Scott Steiner as a main-eventer in 1993. 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Smelly McUgly

[The Man Known as Dan]

Was 93 Scott Steiner good enough in ring to really hang in the main event scene though? Like I know it’s 93 WWF, but Steiner still seemed to flail as a singles act during that era when put in a big match. At least Luger had a history of high end matches, including with some really off the beaten path workers.

[Matt D]

56 minutes ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

Was 93 Scott Steiner good enough in ring to really hang in the main event scene though? Like I know it’s 93 WWF, but Steiner still seemed to flail as a singles act during that era when put in a big match. At least Luger had a history of high end matches, including with some really off the beaten path workers.

Your 93 WWF main eventers are:

Flair (January)
Bret
Yokozuna
Savage
Undertaker 
Ramon
Luger

With a little bit of Perfect, Bigelow, Duggan, Lawler, Hogan, Gonazles.

It's a bit of a bar for Steiner if you ask me.

[The Man Known as Dan]

6 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Your 93 WWF main eventers are:

Flair (January)
Bret
Yokozuna
Savage
Undertaker 
Ramon
Luger

With a little bit of Perfect, Bigelow, Duggan, Lawler, Hogan, Gonazles.

It's a bit of a bar for Steiner if you ask me.

Yeah, I’m not sure if Scott could hang in that main event scene at that time. 
 

Also the guy just worked so fucking stuff, and I can’t imagine that going over well with guys like Bret.

[SirSmUgly]

Savage was sadly sidelined by 1993. He was out of the ME scene by mid-'92 and was used as a spot midcarder at best. ProFight DB has him working eleven times in 1993, one of which is against Lawler as part of that awesome McMemphis feud in USWA. He wrestles the Rumble, the IC title battle royale (IC title status in 1993!), and then a bunch of midcard stuff against the likes of Doink the Clown.

(Of course, he should have been used as a main eventer, and the right WM IX matches to make were Bret/Savage for the WWF title and Yokozuna/Hogan with Yoko going over cleanly, but alas.)

And as much as I love me some Yokozuna and Luger, that's not exactly a murderer's row of ME talent. Heck, '93 Undertaker is still figuring out how to work consistently good matches as a fringe-superheavy.

But I see why one might argue that '93 Steiner is too far from '98 Steiner to be an effective ME player. I don't agree, but I get it.

Anyway, sorry to sidebar with my love of Scott Steiner in this thread. 

[Matt D]

1. We hit flashpoints in this thread around the weekend so any conversation that comes up during the week around the reviews as they come in is great in my books.

2. You're right about Savage. I was really thinking about January when the Narcissist debuted and that's when Savage was doing the mid-show main events with Yoko on house shows and hitting the elbow drop on Yoko in the Rumble. He was less used in that role for the rest of the year.

[Matt D]

  

On 3/30/2020 at 6:28 AM, Goodear said:

@Matt DLet's go to MLW for some Mance Warner vs. Bestia 666 .  It opens this show so ignore the run time of the entire video.  It's about 14 minutes long.  I don't remember you following MLW but let me know if you've seen this already.  Warner is Bunkhouse Buck 2020.  That's my pitch.

Five minute bonus of The Contra Unit's debut which is worth seeing.

 

 

First up, that Contra Unit debut. I liked the big moments. The fire came out of nowhere. The stretcher moonsault wasn't what you were expecting (you were just expecting them to maul the guys), and the riot was weird. Does that REALLY happen in this day and age? Was it just that tossing the water back into the crowd from the mostly full water bottle turned one or two people acting badly into a whole lot of people getting in on the act? I have no idea but it was a great visual.

---
Now onto Warner. He's interesting. He's like a weird Texarkana Briscoe cousin. Bunkhouse Buck is an interesting call but he almost reminds me more of a Sandman type folk hero. I haven't seen a hardcore match like this in a while and I' not sure I've ever seen Bestia in a singles match where there wasn't terrible VQ. 

My biggest takeaway on Mance's work is that he made the outside brawling and weapons stuff seem really organic. For a lot of the match, it didn't seem like they were doing pre-planned spots which is always nice to see in this day and age. The flip side of that is that you'll get some moments that end up not meaning as much as they should. Warner's chop onto the post should have mattered. It was one of the best spots like that I've ever seen. The noise was great. The visual was great. Even if he didn't sell the hand for long it should have given Bestia an advantage for a bit and it really didn't.  

In general they kept things moving. Warner was very good at engaging the crowd, either by jamming a chair on the ground a few times to get them hyped for what was to come or just by making it really clear what he had (like with the thumbtacks). The pop up headbutt is a perfect spot for him. Does he usually get more height on it or is it just a mean stubby move? Bestia was a bit of a cipher in here. The opening tope was a good way to start off the action (including with Mance redirecting it a bit since he was totally fresh), and the finishing muscle buster was as believable a finish as you get, but I can't remember a ton else that he did but a few chops and a range of chairshots. He held up the basic deathmatch match side well enough but was generally along for the ride. 

Yeah, I'd seen Warner again. I'd be curious to see him in a straight up brawl that wasn't a death match.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Matt D

[Curt McGirt]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

Does that REALLY happen in this day and age?

It felt too organic to be plants for sure. When I first saw it I commented that I haven't seen anything like that since the crowd threw shit at the NWO. 

[Matt D]

26 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

It felt too organic to be plants for sure. When I first saw it I commented that I haven't seen anything like that since the crowd threw shit at the NWO. 

The dissonance, to me, is that while they were very good at what they did, what they did didn’t seem to be something that would cause quite so much heat in and of itself.

[Curt McGirt]

You probably can't get that anymore without attacking the crowd either verbally or physically. See: Dudleys, Heat Wave '99. 

[Spontaneous]

On 3/29/2020 at 12:58 PM, Ace said:

I'mma finally do all my reviews this week. 

 

For @Six String Orchestra, I'm gonna give this classic.

 

I'm not super familiar with lucha. I've seen some modern AAA and have had a difficult time getting into it. It's just very different in style and even after reading Matt D's old explanation of lucha from the 80's project I still have a hard time. Partners slowly walk in to break up falls, the faces cheating behind the referee's back is cool, and it all feels like the wrestling equivalent of Whose Line is it Anyways. 

For example, this is a 2/3 falls match but really its more of a best of 9 falls as you must get a pin or submission on both members of the opposite team which the commentary crew for this didn't seem to even know. Fortunately this is used to convey extra drama and heat as Art Barr does a great job through out the match using this to the heels' advantage. I was confused by Octagon and for a minute thought he was Great Sasuke and a quick google search confirms that others have made the same mistake. He is the least interesting part of this match though.

Match is good but I think it was overhyped to the point where it could never live up to the expectation built up to me. I found that outside of Art Barr's heel antics the match wasn't all that interesting. The third fall was not real exciting which should really be the opposite in these type of matches. Crowd seemed deflated until it was down to Eddie vs El Hijo Del Santo. I've always heard that the lucha crowds are super into the face vs heel dynamic but they were somewhat reserved here I felt. Eddie and Barr cutting each other's hair off was funny though and it was odd to see the faces celebrating while Octagon gets stretchered out.

Thanks to @Ace, I've always meant to watch this match so it was about time.

[Curt McGirt]

I always thought it was kinda overrated too, though it may have been one of if not the first actual AAA match I ever saw. You didn't mention the botch off the avalanche rana which I've seen repeated in other matches. People just should not try that.

We need to see more Los Gringos Locos matches though, there's got to be some out there. 

EDIT: Here's a couple 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

There are more, just make sure to put "Love Machine" in instead of Art Barr. I left out the surely dire ones featuring old rotters like Jake Roberts (oof, him in Mexico...) and Cien Caras. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[Matt D]

1. I haven't revisited that in a while. Certainly not since I had a better sense of lucha, which took a while.

2. Re: guys not coming in, there are two elements of that. One is that generally technicos live by a different code than just "babyfaces." There is a difference. More importantly, however, is that lucha doesn't hinge on a hot tag so much as a momentum shift. You have to look at it less like sport and more like a cosmic story. The tension builds and builds and builds until something shifts (it could be a missed move or the tecnicos all rushing the ring at the same time or the crowd pushing things over the top, but it's often a spiritual thing as much as a temporal one) and the whole world changes and the tecnicos can start to come back, usually exacting brutal vengeance or clowning their opponents as they do.

[SirSmUgly]

Alright, I'll go ahead and do that match that @Curt McGirt put up. Sorry to lock you out, @Super Ape,  but I wanted to make sure that Curt's match got reviewed:

Daisuke Sekimoto & Daisuke Ikeda vs. Yuki Ishikawa & Kazunari Murakami

Ikeda and Ishikawa start out with some basic chain wrestling that actually feels like wrestling with a bit of struggle, which is nice. It's not "let's do this chain reversal routine that looks very pretty" like it looks too often in modern wrestling. Also, Ishikawa disrespectfully slaps Ikeda at one point, which I appreciated. The sequence got me interested at the start.

In fact, the thing that was most appealing about this match is that it felt like a fight. There was a lot of struggle in the mat work, but there were still some cool worked punches and pro wrestling interactions put in there. Same thing with the opening standup, which was worked n a nice blend between shoot and pro wrestling-style work. Murakami putting up a shoot-style kick combo leading to not letting up on a rope break and then kicking his opponent any fucking way after the ref finally steps in is good pro wrestling heelery. In general, Ishikawa and Murakami were total shitheads in a way that made me enjoy watching, say, both of them get whipped into chairs and guardrails. 

I also dug that the Fighting Daisukes got tired of Ishikawa and Murakami's shit and then it got sort of wild for a bit, where things got taken outside so there could be some good old fashioned pro wrestling-style ringside brawling and general fuckery. 

The first three matches that I've reviewed are basically shoot-style in some form. This match hit that balance between shoot-style and traditional pro wrestling the best of all of them for me. There aren't too many protracted submission spots; most of the time, someone is getting to the ropes quickly enough when in an arm bar that it doesn't take me out of the parts of the match that feel really shooty. At the same time, the match has these random bursts of pro wrestling in the middle of a bunch of grappling. Like, there might be a shooty strike exchange that leads to a very pro wrestling-style elbowdrop or brainbuster. It never feels like an abrupt shift from one style to the other, though. Things feel blended together really nicely for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on. 

Maybe part of it is that, IMO, the match starts out very shooty, but as guys get beaten down and tired, it sort of devolves into a pro wrestling fight. I like that idea; as you get more tired, you leave yourself more open to the sort of moves that work in a straight pro wrestling match. If wrestlers are exchanging strikes while standing and are really tired, the idea that they'd try to find some fighting spirit inside and answer a punch or chop with another one as they struggle to stay on their feet makes sense. 

I'm not entirely sure if those things are what make it work for me, but this was a fun tag match that blended together multiple elements and tropes nicely. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Smelly McUgly

[Curt McGirt]

Thanks bud! I'll do whatever @Super Ape put up if necessary. 

You pretty much nailed BattlARTS, when it's done right. I've heard complaints here about their striking as being too legit (as in completely legit), but it's still working because they aren't knocking each other out. It's going right up to that point and pulling it... but then, I guess sometimes not pulling it. The point is that these are willing participants and if you feel queasy watching them knock each other senseless it's not their problem. 

This match had in particular I think more pro style elements in it because of Sekimoto, who is a pure Strong Style worker and unfamiliar with Bati-Bati. For example, his attempt at a pin, which he even sheepishly cops to. But that synthesis of styles is what makes BattlARTS (and FUTEN) what they are. You will have a guy like Alexander Otsuka dumping people on their heads with released Dragon suplexes and kicking the crap out of them but then use a Giant Swing, for example, and somehow it works. 

One more thing is that this is yet another piece of the saga of Ikeda vs. Ishikawa. Ishikawa is the owner of the promotion and head guy and Ikeda is the upstart always getting in a fight with him. Between those two the violence is always more visceral, and even as of 2020 they are still in matches punching each other directly in the face. If you liked their work here then there are plenty of matches they did to choose from... just be willing to watch two guys punch each other directly in the face.

[Spontaneous]

1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

I always thought it was kinda overrated too, though it may have been one of if not the first actual AAA match I ever saw. You didn't mention the botch off the avalanche rana which I've seen repeated in other matches. People just should not try that.

We need to see more Los Gringos Locos matches though, there's got to be some out there. 

EDIT: Here's a couple 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

There are more, just make sure to put "Love Machine" in instead of Art Barr. I left out the surely dire ones featuring old rotters like Jake Roberts (oof, him in Mexico...) and Cien Caras. 

You know what, I think the botch was cut because they went to set it up then cuts to Eddie and El Hijo outside the ring and I figured there was a mistake.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Goodear]

On 3/30/2020 at 7:01 AM, Matt D said:

 

 

Let's get some things out of the way in terms of ground rules. 

Rule 1:  I have no idea who these people are and I do not care.  I have no background. I didn't look for background.  Background be damned.  You don't need it.  I will refer to the participants as Baldy, Robin, Uncle Heel and Shadow.  You will know exactly who is who by watching. 

Rule 2:  The mechanical work SUCKS.  They are all terrible.  The offense sucks.  The bumping sucks.  They fucking suck.

Rule 3: I give it ***** Absolutely a match everyone should watch.  And that's not bullshit.  I'm not being cute.  You should watch this. 

I've gone away from doing play-by-play as a review style and it wouldn't do this match justice but I feel like I have to tell you everything that happens because the story needs to be told.  It's like a fever dream you owe it to yourself to experience.  It's absurd in the best most totally pro wrestling ways that you can imagine.  And I emphasize ways.  In that in I mean EVERY way. The ring announcer is in a sequined jacket and he's the most normal thing going to be in the ring tonight. Baldy wears a pimp short robe to ringside to get a trophy for probably owning the promotion, who cares.  The heels come out with a MARCHING BAND, a banner and a sidekick who looks like ... I don't even know.  He's awesome.  The heels join hands and dance a waltz.  I legitimately don't think the Shadow can see shit in his outfit.  He's wrestling in sensory deprivation.  Uncle Heel has to walk him up the steps. They also have ring girls with thongs up to their necks.  And the referee... When I tell you the referee is my favorite thing I have ever seen, I'm not kidding.  Mother fucker is pimping white pants, a red shirt open to the navel, a skimmer hat like he's running for president in a Bugs Bunny Cartoon and a cane.  

Have I mentioned that they wrestle in a rounds system?  Cause they fucking do!

Have I mentioned every move is a flying headbutt?  Because it fucking is!

Have I mentioned Robin gets thrown over the top rope by a man in sensory deprivation and they carry his ass away from the ring?  And they show it as it happens in slow mo?  Because it fucking happens!

 

 

 

 

 

Have I mentioned the riot?

So with Baldy alone facing two heels, they cheat for a bit as you might expect.  And Baldy comes back as you might expect culminating with kicking both the heels in the balls. That's when the WORLD EXPLODES.  You've seen the ECW thing where Public Enemy gets covered in chairs?  This is that but these people ain't playing.  How that poor bastard who was legally blind survived is a miracle.  The referee says the good guys win so everyone will survive until morning and they carry Baldy through the crowd (which I sure as shit wouldn't do) and he's Elvis, the Pope and Micheal Jackson all wrapped up in one.

Watch this.

Now.

 

[SirSmUgly]

So, this match was absurd, but the dude Goodear called "Robin" looking like fat Burt Ward is basically one of the funniest punchlines anyone has landed on this board. 

[Curt McGirt]

That is one of the most baffling things I've ever seen. I've got nothing.