Tabe Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Guys with 2000 games played and > 145 OPS+ but NOT in the Hall of Fame: Barry Bonds Jim Thome Albert Pujols Manny Ramirez Jeff Bagwell Miguel Cabrera Edgar Martinez Newsflash: Edgar was really, really, REALLY good. He should be in the HOF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I think in general sportswriters don't care that much for politics, but when your an asshole like Schilling, it tends to leave an impression. . . On 1/1/2017 at 6:17 PM, Ryan said: Jason Varitek and Edgar Renteria got at least one vote. Jason Varitek over Mike Mussina...really? By some guy who works for a paper in Trenton, NJ. Varitek isn't a HOF, but I have no problem throwing him a vote, http://nesn.com/playlist/bobby-bonilla-brad-radke-among-worst-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-getters/20/ as his credentials aren't worse than some of these guys. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Still, vote for Mussina over Varitek, just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Schilling absolutely should be in the Hall of Fame and I do think he's torpedoed his chances until some Veteran's committee puts him in years down the road. He and Mussina would have been 9/10 on my ballot. But also fuck him, you know? E: Since we didn't do a poll this year, my picks would have been Bonds, Clemens, Raines, Bagwell, Vladdy, Pudge, Martinez, Ramirez, Schilling and Mussina. Sentimental pick Larry Walker just missing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Agree with everything except I'd put in Walker over Schilling's dumbass. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Roger Clemens is one of the best pitchers I've ever seen, even if he is a walking sack of expired meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 4 hours ago, Tabe said: Guys with 2000 games played and > 145 OPS+ but NOT in the Hall of Fame: Barry Bonds Jim Thome Albert Pujols Manny Ramirez Jeff Bagwell Miguel Cabrera Edgar Martinez Newsflash: Edgar was really, really, REALLY good. He should be in the HOF. Edgar should have been in already. His position was DH and he excelled at it, to the point the award for outstanding DH was named after him. I'm going to be pissed if the same writers that snub Edgar because he's a DH vote for David Ortiz when he becomes eligible. My ballot would look like this: Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Edgar Martinez Mike Mussina Jeff Kent Trevor Hoffman Ivan Rodriguez Fred McGriff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Edgar is in the Hall of Very Good, and should only get into Cooperstown if he buys a ticket. Sure he hit .312, but 300 hrs and 1200 Rbis with 2200 hits do not a hall of famer make. The baseballreference comps aren't perfect, but his top 3 comps are Will Clark, John Olerud and Moises Alou. Ortiz has only 2400 hits and a .286 average, and Ortiz has roughly 500 more K's and 500 more RBI's. Ortiz has a lower OPB but 200 more HRs. Ortiz's top comps are Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff and Manny. You want to argue stat inflation and roid against Ortiz? That's fine, but I don't think it increases Edgar's case personally. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Casey Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 My ballot would probably be: Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Jeff Bagwell Manny Ramirez Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Ivan Rodriguez Trevor Hoffman Curt Schilling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Only 9? Interesting. Take off Hoffman and add in Walker and Wagner, and you got mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 56 minutes ago, Kuetsar said: Edgar is in the Hall of Very Good, and should only get into Cooperstown if he buys a ticket. Sure he hit .312, but 300 hrs and 1200 Rbis with 2200 hits do not a hall of famer make. The baseballreference comps aren't perfect, but his top 3 comps are Will Clark, John Olerud and Moises Alou. Ortiz has only 2400 hits and a .286 average, and Ortiz has roughly 500 more K's and 500 more RBI's. Ortiz has a lower OPB but 200 more HRs. Ortiz's top comps are Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff and Manny. You want to argue stat inflation and roid against Ortiz? That's fine, but I don't think it increases Edgar's case personally. . . . Using comps is dumb. Also, John Olerud was a better ball player then David Ortiz, and should go in the HOF before him, but that's digressing. Also, using a comparison for Fred McGriff, who I really like but isn't getting into the HOF, is funny. And if we are giving Ortiz extra points for just playing longer, while not being as good, I can't wait till Jamie Moyer gets elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Julio Franco would be a better pick than Moyer for guys who had 30 year careers IMO. I think he's still playing in Korea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Comps are flawed, but it gives some example of the company they keep. Ortiz only played 2 more years than Edgar. That explains the hits edge, but 500 more RBI's and 200 more Hrs is more than just playing longer. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Well, 2 things. No.1 David Ortiz hit tons and tons of homers, true. He also go to play in the AL East for all of his good years, and at Fenway in particular. Those are notorious hitters parks, to an absurd degree. Edgar Martinez, on the other hand, played his entire career in what many consider the worst hitters ballpark in baseball. Note, I think Ortiz is a HOFer. I jsut think Martinez was a better player. Edger put up years of a 5 year stretch averaging above a 450 OBP. He's 18th ALL TIME in On Base Percentage among guys with at least 5,000 PA's. You can point out Ortiz's power, I'll point out the only players since 1950 to have a higher OBP then Edgar in his career are Barry Bonds, Joey Votto (without his decline years), Frank Thomas, and Mickey Fucking Mantle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 The point about Martinez playing most of his career in an awful park for power hitters is an excellent one. That can't be ignored. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 1/3/2017 at 3:43 PM, Oyaji said: Agree with everything except I'd put in Walker over Schilling's dumbass. I love Larry Walker but his home/away splits are way too ridiculous for me to put him in the Hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Bagwell(No brainer), Bonds(I've come around, these guys should go in), Clemens(Same deal), Mussina(Simply should be in), Raines(Should have been in 7 years ago), Rodriguez(No brainer), Vladdy(No brainer), Edgar(Borderline, but I think he belongs in), Hoffman(Same with Trevor), 10th left blank for if Schilling ever pulls his head out of his ass, this isn't a right or left wing thing, he's a horrible person by just being who he is. I'm sure I'm a hypocrite because I'd probably put in some guys from the past who were really big assholes, but so be it. I gleefully anticipate the vote for Matt Stairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 1/3/2017 at 6:39 PM, Kuetsar said: Edgar is in the Hall of Very Good, and should only get into Cooperstown if he buys a ticket. Sure he hit .312, but 300 hrs and 1200 Rbis with 2200 hits do not a hall of famer make. The baseballreference comps aren't perfect, but his top 3 comps are Will Clark, John Olerud and Moises Alou. Ortiz has only 2400 hits and a .286 average, and Ortiz has roughly 500 more K's and 500 more RBI's. Ortiz has a lower OPB but 200 more HRs. Ortiz's top comps are Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff and Manny. You want to argue stat inflation and roid against Ortiz? That's fine, but I don't think it increases Edgar's case personally. . . . You know how many guys have hit 300 HRs with a .300 average and a 145 OPS+? 17. Only GREAT players hit that trio of marks. He was an incredible hitter and belongs in the Hall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Steven Marcus from Newsday is weird and only voted for two guys the 2nd year in a row. Hoffman again and Vladdy. Last year was Junior Griffey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don't see the case for Mussina. He had exactly two seasons with an ERA under 3.00. He's Hall of Very Good, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Different standards for different voters I guess. Hey, I'd vote for your boy Edgar, so quiet down over there in the expensive, luxury seats with your food service! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 My standards put a very high emphasis on great seasons. Mussina has like one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Ben Sheets should be in! Damn the standards! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 12 minutes ago, Tabe said: I love Larry Walker but his home/away splits are way too ridiculous for me to put him in the Hall. I always see this comparison, but it needs to be pointed out Larry Walker at Coors Field, in 2,500 PA's put up a 381/462/710. That's so far above what anyone else did at Coors it's unreal. Coors helped, but he was beyond amazing there. Also, he was a great hitter for the Expos too, and was still a very good offensive player when he even put up a 135 wRC+ in St. Louis at age 38. I think he'd have been the best RF in baseball for about a decade, regardless of what park he was in. I think he just tailored his game for playing at Coors, which made him worse on the road for his years there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 He hit like .280 everywhere but Coors. That just isn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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