OSJ Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 For your consideration not one, not two, not three but FOUR shortstops that we can do without: Luis Aparicio: I think Rippa fingered him last year, as well he should have. Speed! Glove! HOF! Uh, no, just "no". Granted I saw him after his prime, but I didn't think he was anything special. A perennial All-Star and GG winner, but let's look at what this really means in context... One the laughable truisms of the All-Star Game is that every team is represented even if all of the players suck. Luis was on the hapless White Sox for a good bit of his AS games and it's like "who else would they send?" He's easily the best player of these three, but he really doesn't belong. His top comparisons are Ozzie (and I ain't seeing it) and Rabbit Maranville, of whom more about next... Rabbit Maranville: Speed! Glove! Catchy nickname! HOF! It is interesting to note that in the HOF elections during the years that there were members of BBWA that were around long enough to have actually seen him he never garnered more than 29% of the vote, there was one fluke year after WWII where he moved up to 56% and then slowly, the legend of how great he was started getting traction among a bunch of guys who never saw him play. For purposes of discussion, I'm going to call this the "Pie Traynor Syndrome"; which in essence is once something gets repeated enough times it becomes conventional wisdom regardless of any evidence to the contrary. I'm of the generation that was told "Pie Traynor was the greatest third baseman who ever lived!" Despite Eddie Mathews being in his prime and making Traynor look like a joke. In Maranville's case not only did the legend catch on, but the fact that Maranville was ailing probably got him a few sympathy votes, he went in as a prime example of people seeing something that really wasn't there. Joe Tinker: While easily the best of the famed double-play combo, he's still a joke of HOFr. During his years of eligibility his top was a whopping 19% of the vote. He picked up steam with the Old Timers Committee, and if I'm not mistaken he owned a bar for many years and I'll bet he stood for many rounds. Anyway, without the stupid poem he'd be as forgotten as Frank Chance and Johnny Evers should be. (Two more guys we can do without). Phil Rizzuto: Yeah, he was fine defensive shortstop who hit like my sister. Big deal. The braindead argument that he was an integral part of the Yankees dynasty is just so much bullshit. The Yankees won with him and they won just as handily without him, you could have replaced him with Rabbit Maranville (who would have been in his 60s then) and the Yankees would still have won. So once again we have Speed! Glove! Catchy nickname! Oh, and cry like a little bitch about not being in the HOF for twenty years as a broadcaster in the biggest market in the country. HOF! Here's one of those "conventional wisdom" things... Over the years Rizzuto/Reese became somewhat of a mantra regarding great shortstops. Rizzuto is as much like Reese as I am like George Brett, which is to say not at all similar. Reese was an RBI producer and a genuinely good hitter for what was then considered totally a defensive position. The only real similarities is that they were both little guys that played shortstop in NY, that's it. Reese has a WAR of 66.3 which puts him in company with a lot of HOFrs. Scooter comes in at 40.6, putting him in company with, (you guessed it!) Rabbit Maranville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Campbell was an excellent defensive catcher with a lot of power. 8 All-Star games and 3 MVPs in 10 seasons. He's a no-brainer. Yes he is. Just was looking at baseball reference and looking at "advanced" stats and was surprised at them. For his best 7 season he is in the top fifteen of catchers or some such. He just had three really bad years that drug him down. Enough about players we agree on. Jesse Haines,a pitcher a had literally never heard of until I started looking this stuff up, was a "frankie Frisch" special from the veterans commitee of the early 1970's. Playing from 1918-1937, he had a record of 210-158, with and era 3.64. All of the other advanced stats, are roughly half of what a HOF should be, if not less. His comps are immortals like Freddie Fitzsimmons and Charlie Root. Rube Marquard is a similar HOF case, with a record of 201-177, and a 3.08 era. Looking at wikipedia, apparently he gained HOF traction by telling a bunch of stories(which apparently were false) about the early days of baseball for a book, the glory of their times. Bill James(same WIkipedia article) called him the worst HOF pitcher in his HOF book. His advanced stats are as bad, though a little better than Haines, and his comps are Larry Jackson and Larry French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Don't even get me started on unworthy pitchers... However, when your closest comp is Fat Freddie Fitzsimmons, the only way you should get into the HOF is to pay for a ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 OSJ hit four of my favorites. Here's some more: High Pockets Kelly - Another Frankie Frisch special. Kelly was a good - or even very good - player for a few years in the 20s. And uh...yeah. John Montgomery Ward - A light-hitting guy from the 19th century who stole a bunch of bases and did nothing else. Uh...yeah. Carl Yastrzemski - Oooooh, Tabe gets controversial. Hear me out. And look at his stats again before you get all cranky. Let's do an honest evaluation of Yaz's career. He played 23 seasons. During that time, he had three great seasons (1967, 1969, 1970) and three very good years (1963 & 1965). Hey, that's really good! But...the rest of his career he was a .265/16/72 guy. Hit .300 in his career just 6 times. 30 HRs just three times. So we're left with a "power hitting corner outfielder who hit for a high average" that...didn't hit for that much power and didn't hit for that high of an average. Yaz from 1971-83: 15, 12, 19, 15, 14, 21, 28, 17, 21, 15, 7, 16, 10. Those are his homer totals. Yaz 1961-66: 11, 19, 14, 15, 20, 16. Again, homer totals. So if you ignore the aberration of 1967, 1969 & 1969, Yaz wasn't even close to a power hitter. So we've got a non-power hitter that hit..... .285. Yep, he played in a million All-Star games. And actually deserved a few. Basically, this is a guy who had three years that grossly outpaced the entire rest of his career (shifting his average from 18 HRs per 162 to 22, for example). Those three years are so out-of-character that one would not be faulted for expecting to read a Norm Cash in Sports Illustrated article about him. Yaz ain't the worst HOF'er around but he might have the biggest difference between rep and actual performance. He's not a HOF'er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Well, Ward isn't really in because of his playing, he was a manager and the founder of the Players' League, which while it didn't last, did have a lasting impact on the game. George Kelly has as much business in the HOF as I do, (and I think I was a much better hitter). ;-) We've been down the Yaz road before, but to summarize for younger posters. Magic numbers change, I recall a time when 50 HRs in a season was a HUGE deal, then once you had guys like Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson reach that level it didn't seem so special any longer. Y'all may find this hard to believe, but my first baseball history book (some piece of crap from the Scholastic Press) must've come out around 1960, I would have got my copy in first or second grade when I was reading at 6th grade level, so must have been 1963 or thereabouts... Anyway it was devoted to baseball's greatest hitters and covered everyone who had hit either of the Magic Numbers that assured automatic induction to the HOF. Those "Magic Numbers"? 3000 hits and 300 HRs, yes, 300 career taters meant something once upon a time. I think the first player to retire with over 300 and NOT get in was Roy Sievers, a fine player but not one who could ever be mistaken for a HOFr. Yaz went in when there were plenty of older writers who still bought the 300/3000 thing as a "magic combo". Now it has become apparent that 3000 isn't really that big a deal when guys can easily play for 20-yr careers. That's bopping along at a 150 hits a year, certainly good, but not necessarily great. Yaz actually came up short on that mark with an average of 147 per year. Not exactly a prodigious total. Perhaps his HR average was staggering ala Harmon Killebrew... Oh, wait... Less than 20 a year from a corner outfielder... Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 The ballot is out and the tracker is already up and running https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!7731&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AE2Lu5P1f92OW8o Tony Massarotti's troll ballot is infuriating and yet again another reason writers shouldn't have a say in anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 FULL BALLOT I will get the DVDVR ballot poll up sometime this week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Pos started his bios of all the people on the ballot, starting w Arthur Rhodes. Http://joeposnanski.com/no-34-arthur-rhodes/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I think Bagwell and Raines finally get in this year, Pudge and Vladdy should be no-brainers, but who knows what people thing of Ivan and the Steroid era stuff. Manny's going to be stuck with the Bonds/Clemens type vote forever and I think Sosa finally falls off the ballot. Fringey guys like Maggs and Renteria I don't think really have a shot. Also, I hope Schilling somehow falls off the ballot entirely out of spite even with such a high percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 New version of the veteran's committee selects Bud Selig and John Schuerholz to go into the HOF because of course they did 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 In HOF: Bud, Torre, LaRussa NOT in HOF: Bonds, Clemens 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Dont even get me started on Selig being in but not Marvin Miller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 2 hours ago, odessasteps said: In HOF: Bud, Torre, LaRussa NOT in HOF: Bonds, Clemens I could make an argument for Torre and Larussa, but Bud being in there is a fucking disgrace. . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 With Bud Selig in, you may as well burn the whole fucking Hall of Fame down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Can we send his statue to Canton? That's what greets you going into Miller Park. At least they have a Uecker one and I think another player as well as some commemorating the folks who fuckin' died in the crane accident building the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 "Canton, Cooperstown, whatever".:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 No, send it to Canton. It doesn't belong anywhere near Cooperstown. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Deadspin just pointed out, Curt Schilling is losing ground on ballots - badly - according to the tracker. He's not getting in this year, and now, he probably may never be. As a baseball fan, I shake my head a little because, he was a fantastic pitcher and a fierce warrior. Stats-wise, he should be in. As EVERYTHING else I am.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Jason Varitek and Edgar Renteria got at least one vote. Jason Varitek over Mike Mussina...really? By some guy who works for a paper in Trenton, NJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Some great trolling by A1 troll Murray Chass today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 We really should talk about how Bonds & Clemens (and by extension A-Rod) are probably getting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said: We really should talk about how Bonds & Clemens (and by extension A-Rod) are probably getting in. Yeah - but to clarify - not this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Yeah, I'd say they get in around 2-3 years from now. But as early as last year, I was convinced they would never, ever get in. Speaking of which, you know who is now calling the writers "scumbags" who would have put him in if he'd called for the President-Elect's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said: Yeah, I'd say they get in around 2-3 years from now. But as early as last year, I was convinced they would never, ever get in. Speaking of which, you know who is now calling the writers "scumbags" who would have put him in if he'd called for the President-Elect's death. While I don't think he'd get in, regardless of his political opinions or activities, there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that plenty of writers have not voted for him simply because of something he said or tweeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 And writers don't vote for guys because it is the first time on the ballot And writers don't vote for guys because since Babe Ruth was 100% no one can be 100% Etc.. Etc.. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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