WWE Best Of The Year

[SirSmUgly]

Re: Brock Lesnar, the bloom was off the rose no matter what because he had lost too much by the time he wrestled Punk. Punk doing the typical babyface comeback that is in every WWE match isn't the problem so much as WWE almost never books a heel monster properly anyway. Who is the last heel monster to shrug off the typical babyface comeback and win with any regularity? Mark Henry? Before then, who was it? This is a serious question. WWE doesn't get that not every heel needs to stooge for a bunch of babyface finishing-run offense. 

 

Furthermore, if I'm bringing back Brock Lesnar, he's going over Cena and HHH so that whoever actually beats him gets something out of it. Cena beating him out of the gate sort of killed that, though the way Cena did it made the damage minimal. Those HHH matches, even the one Brock won, finished him off, though. I hate to mindlessly hate on HHH, but HHH control segments just suck the life out of a match and end up with him beating down guys like Brock and Goldberg for minutes on end whom should instead be shrugging off punishment and throwing attempted killshots on a regular basis. 

 

Re: The Cena/Lesnar match, I agree with people that in a vacuum, that match was an awesome "plucky babyface overcomes monster's onslaught." In fact, I think Cena got in less meaningful babyface offense in that win than Punk did in his loss to Lesnar. In terms of telling a story, however, they really screwed up months of booking where Cena gets destroyed, gets a break until Summerslam or so, then comes back and fights his way back toward the title, including a win in a rematch over Brock and then the win over The Rock. 

 

Frankly, I would have put Cena over in the first matchup with The Rock in the first place, but that gets into another topic altogether and fantasy booking and such. 

[TheVileOne]

Personal favorite was the Randy Orton vs. Daniel Bryan street fight.

[GOTNW]

 

No, it's the same shit... Lesnar/Punk was a better match overall but I'm not going to pretend that the ending doesn't knock it down a few pegs. The stretch with Lesnar selling for Punk's super hero comeback was absurd.

Which I acknowledged and gave reasoning why it didn't hurt my viewing experience as much as did it in the HHH match. Why is there really a problem with that?

 

 

Oh alright, so we have traveled back in time to 2003. What are your thoughts on RVD and Booker? Did Steiner get a raw deal as well?

What a mature response! I don't care what Mr.Levesque does backstage-Misawa is one of my all time favourite wrestlers and he booked himself to get pinned like 4 times in 9 years. I see no reason to get bitter over such things.

 

So basically you like Punk, you don't like Triple H

 

 

Incorrect. I am not a particularly big fan of either man.

 

and that's the difference between the matches

 

No, it's not and I stated why.

Both matches were flawed. Both hurt Brock more than they helped either guy.

 

Yes, they were.

 

Either way neither was objectively great because you're making excuses for one that you don't make for the other.

 

 

I am not making excuses. I have no reason to do so. If you don't find my reasons convincing then so be it. I liked the Punk match a fair bit more than the HHH match and "Lesnar selling too much" is like, 49th on my "reasons why I liked Punk-Lesnar more than HHH-Lesnar" list. If you are willing to defend the HHH-Lesnar match properly and do something else other than continue your pathetic gimmick I'm willing to continue this discussion.

 

 

Triple H had control because Brock got over aggressive and hurt his knee, and at the end of the match he did shrug off everything Trips had done to him and murdered him dead. Really damn good match.

 

 

 

That's not what actually happened. I just rewatched the finish. First off, HHH had Lesnar beat. Heyman interfered, got beat up, then hit HHH with a low blow from behind and that's when Lesnar got back into control, hit HHH with his own Sledgehammer and then finished him off with a second F5.

[Jrag]

Well the obvious difference between Punk/Brock and HHH/Brock is that Punk sold like a mad man and Brock destroyed him like a madder man. It's why the comeback is great because it was a desperate one.

Brock/HHH didn't work because HHH never looked like he had no chance. The match wasn't built like Punk/Brock and Cena/Brock which seems off because EVERY Brock match should be that way.

[SirSmUgly]

Well the obvious difference between Punk/Brock and HHH/Brock is that Punk sold like a mad man and Brock destroyed him like a madder man. It's why the comeback is great because it was a desperate one.

Brock/HHH didn't work because HHH never looked like he had no chance. The match wasn't built like Punk/Brock and Cena/Brock which seems off because EVERY Brock match should be that way.

 

I absolutely agree with this. In the end, no one should have a long control segment where they beat down a guy like Brock, Goldberg, Henry, or monsters like that while the monster is selling a beating. It makes no sense. 

 

The reason these guys got over in the first place is that everyone from job guys to main eventers spent a lot of time eating their offense and desperately trying to find a way to survive. There is no need to deviate from that formula unless two monsters are wrestling one another. 

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Nobody is defending Triple H/Lesnar, my point was that Punk/Lesnar wasn't better because they had similar flaws. The fact that you can't see that proves my point beyond question.

[Matt D]

But we explained, at length, how the flaws were actually different or overstated or had mitigating circumstances that mean they apply to a far less degree and your response was..

 

"Well, if...!"

 

which, I hate to break to you, is a terrible, terrible bit of bs deflection, sport.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Watch the finishing stretch of the Punk match and tell me it isn't the most ridiculous thing you've seen. I believe Triple H could beat up Brock Lesnar for ten minutes a lot easier than I'd believe CM Punk (or anyone other than Cena) entering some sort of untouchable god mode against Brock Lesnar.

And Cena didn't enter God mode.

[NintendoLogic]

What exactly is ridiculous about a guy using a chair to even the odds against a larger and stronger opponent? Or taking advantage of the time said opponent spent to introduce said chair into the match to recover from the beating he had sustained?

[RandomAct]

All of Punk's offense seemed desperate too me, which is exactly what it should have been.  I didn't see any of this shit that the rest of you did.  I did see Hunter more or less make Brock look like everyone else on the roster though.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

There's like three different spots where Heyman saves Brock, Punk goes after Hey man, Brock recovers... And Punk drops him again. He's this unstoppable, omniscient.

Fuck you guys are assholes, I'm going to watch this finishing stretch and point out exactly how bunk it is and how "Triple H made him look like everyone else in the roster" is stupid too.

[Matt D]

It's fiction. I sure as hell bought into it at the time. I freaked the baby out because I was watching it while on the exercise bike down stairs and at one point at near fall went "Come on!" and she thought I meant she should come downstairs so she was banging on the gate, and I'm hardly hugely emotionally connected to Punk or anything. 

 

In fact, it's all the more impressive I bought into it given the size difference, BUT not that much more because I'm not someone with as limited as an imagination as you seem to be. 

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

It's fiction. I sure as hell bought into it at the time. I freaked the baby out because I was watching it while on the exercise bike down stairs and at one point at near fall went "Come on!" and she thought I meant she should come downstairs so she was banging on the gate, and I'm hardly hugely emotionally connected to Punk or anything. 

 

In fact, it's all the more impressive I bought into it given the size difference, BUT not that much more because I'm not someone with as limited as an imagination as you seem to be. 

It's not the size it's the everything. Brock is a phenom. Size, strength, speed. Punk is a nothing. Not faster, not stronger, not anything beyond smarter. And he didn't work smarter, because Heyman repeatedly distracted him. And he didn't really work anything, he just sort of entered Beast Mode where Brock could do nothing despite Heyman. It was stupid because the blueprint was there. The Cena match was right there. They could have worked that, had Punk miracle-win (or miracle win then Heyman saves the day) and it would have fit perfectly. It was a giant hole, a flaw that you can't just overlook.

 

And to hear that match compared favorably to Lesnar/Triple H because Triple H "dominated Brock" and Triple H "made Brock look like everyone else on the roster" is daft. You can enjoy the match more for whatever reason, but you can't use a stick to beat one match without using it on the other. If people just said "I love CM Punk and everything he does makes my balls tingle" it would be a lot more honest than this pathetic hoop jumping. Because my stance, which is "I hate CM Punk and everything he does makes my balls clamber gingerly back inside my body" is just as valid and yet it's considered trolling.

[Niners Fan in CT]

There are certain people who will hold a grudge against Triple H until the day they die and that's always going to be part of it... but if we are going to have a real discussion about what happened in these respective contests..  Punk's finishing stretch was every bit as ridiculous as the WrestleMania match against Hunter. Punk shook off the earlier punishment and made a super human comeback against Lesnar. Brock was saved countless times by Heyman and flopped around like a fish out of water for several minutes. Brock looked much stronger against Triple H at SummerSlam and then in the cage match than he did against Punk. I'm not here to defend the Mania match.. that was garbage.

[RandomAct]

My view is this.  I saw 2 of the 3 Hunter/Brock matches(Summerslam and Mania), and they were both boring, plodding affairs, and I will stand by my statement that Brock was made to look like every other Triple H opponent in those matches.  The Punk match was at least exciting and far more compelling.  Until this supposed superman comeback, it mostly followed the Brock/Cena blueprint.  I have ZERO PROBLEMS with the Heyman interference because he's a goddamn heel manager and it's his job to cheat.  I never got the feeling the Brock only won because of Heyman. 

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Alright, here goes:

 

I joined the match at the 15 minute mark of a 30 minute youtube match. Lesnar has a chinlock on Punk.

 

- Punk changes momentum with a babyface rally, takes control. Hits a head kick and the Elbow Flop. Lesnar kicks out at 2.

- Finisher reversals, ends with a head kick

- Lesnar reverses a GTS into a kimura. The move that fucked up Cena and Triple H's (significantly larger) arms.

- Punk reverses into an armbar, then transitions into a triangle choke.

- Lesnar powerbombs Punk from the triangle, Punk eats a full powerbomb and continues the fucking triangle. This is fucking gash.

- Lesnar again picks up Punk and hits a running powerbomb. Punk sells this one. Lesnar gets a two count.

- Lesnar hits the 3 amigos, Punk kicks out. Lesnar gets a chair (bizarrely, he has Punk where he wants him)

- Punk dives into Lesnar through the chair. Punk hits two chairshots, Lesnar blocks one, Punk low blows him before he can use it.

- Punk hits the chair assisted Elbow Flop, Lesnar kicks out at two.

- Punk hits a chair shot, Heyman interferes. Lesnar attacks, stacks up Punk but Punk saves himself by grabbing Heyman.

- Punk comes out of this and hits a GTS. Heyman saves Lesnar from a 3 count.

- Lesnar tries an F5 and Punk reverses it into a DDT for 2. Hits the Vice.

- Heyman interferes and Punk cuts him off. Punk mugs forever and then hits Heyman... Vices Heyman?

- Lesnar hits Punk mid-vice with the chair, 3 times.

- Lesnar F5s Punk on the chair.

- Lesnar wins

 

I'll definitely admit to misremembering things, mostly because I hated this match the first time it happened and then came on here and the usual crowd were masturbating over it. Which made it worse. However if you look through that sequence of events, it's a mess. Heyman gets involved twice, Punk ignores Brock Fucking Lesnar, Lesnar gets a chair he didn't need, Punk no sells a Powerbomb, Brock wins with three chairshots and an F5. Onto a chair. Rewatching it I was definitely wrong about how much Punk owned Lesnar, definitely overstated that. But this match is all over the show. It isn't a MOTYC unless you just ignore anything Goldust/Cody, and most of Cena's post-Rock matches. And it definitely doesn't make Brock look good considering how much it took to put Punk away.

 

As for the Hunter matches, I only remember enjoying the first one, which doesn't count, and don't particularly care to watch the second two. I suppose in the interests of putting this match down some more I should, but I'm bored of this shithouse Lesnar, the beast who doesn't really beast anyone.

[The Natural]

That list was actually really good. There was a Bryan/Wade cage match this year on Smackdown, right? That match is the only one I can think of not on there that should be.

 

Correct. The Post SummerSlam 2013 Smackdown show.

 

Fuck if I thought any of the HHH/Lesnar matches were any good at all.  All of them just made Brock look like shit.  Punk and Cena were the only two good matches he's had since the comeback.

 

I liked the SummerSlam 2012 match more than most, didn't like the WrestleMania XXIX match (I was fading at that point as WrestleMania is in the early hours of the morning UK time) and really liked their match at Extreme Rules 2013.

 

God that Cena/Brock match was amazing.

 

It sure was. Brock's best match since his return and one of Brock's best ever matches.

[Brian Fowler]

The only Brock match I would definitely take over it is the Eddy one. The HIAC with Taker is right there.

[J.H.]

I love that HIAC match. It pretty much solidified Brock as the IT Guy. He went from being The Vanilla Gorilla to King Fuckin Kong!

 

James

[Niners Fan in CT]

Heyman having to save Lesnar multiple times is what really kills it for me. The match is good but the finishing stretch is absurd. Compare it to the SummerSlam match with Triple H and Lesnar shakes off everything and makes Triple H tap clean as a whistle. Broke his arm, IIRC. My issue isn't Heyman interfering because that's what he is supposed to do. But having to do it out of desperation to save the match multiple times? Bah..  Plus, Triple H is fucking huge. I have less of an issue with him fighting straight up against Lesnar than I do Punk. In Punk's case he should be trying to outsmart the beast. Take a page out of Bret's playbook with how he handled Diesel, etc.

[jm29195]

Just seen Brotherhood vs Wyatt's from Smack down and that should definitely be in here, I was marking out in an empty house when Goldust did the somersault to the floor, correct me if I'm wrong but has he ever done things like that and the hurricanrana I've seen a few times recently, what a comeback!!!!

[Matt D]

Heyman having to save Lesnar multiple times is what really kills it for me. 

 

One element of this is that the feud and the next few months of it was based around Punk vs Heyman. That was the program that had to continue. It looks like they're not even going back to Brock vs Punk in a rematch at any point. Punk vs Heyman had to carry business though.

 

As always though, I'll give FSW a pat on the head for going and watching something to back up his claim though.

[cwoy2j]

Punk was using a chair on Brock. It's not like he was out there whipping Lesnar's ass straight up. Lesnar pretty much beat the hell out of him at the beginning of the match before Punk changed his strategy. Also, it should take a lot to beat Punk. He survived two pedigrees from Triple H and Cena has always had to use multiple AA's to beat him.

[The Natural]

The only Brock match I would definitely take over it is the Eddy one. The HIAC with Taker is right there.

 

The one I would for sure is the HIAC with Undertaker. The Eddie Guerrero match might be the other.

[Matt D]

There's a Taker vs Brock cage match from MSG that I really love. It's on youtube. (Granted I partially love it because it was the only time I've ever seen wrestling in MSG and it was a down period so tickets we had great seats).