MAE YOUNG CLASSIC FINAL DISCUSSION

[Phantom Lord]

When Kairi was in the rear naked choke I was like "well that's it, she's done before". At least she didn't tap right away which was a plus. But the match went on it was great. The right woman won and they can still do all their wrestlemania crap with Rousey or whatever.

Honestly I'm surprised when they had the time in post production after Askua's injury, they could have easily edited in that the finals would be for the NXT Women's championship.

[Beech27]

7 hours ago, EricR said:

I left nearly every match more impressed by her opponent. Killer performance from Shayna though. 

Not to be glib, but isn't that a sign she's really good*, and brought a lot to the matches she was in? A babyface that can stack up clean wins without the opponent looking worse off for losing is both rare and incredibly valuable. That she managed it with opponents who were mostly either very young or very new at this is even more impressive. There really wasn't much buzz that Blanchard and/or Belair ought to be future stars before they wrestled Kairi, and I don't know that anyone else in the tournament was going to do that for them. 

And Baszler was really good in this match, but I think it's telling that she was given Yim, Candice, Martinez, and Kairi: All of whom would have been considered the most experienced and steadiest hands in the tournament, before it started. 

As for the wrong person going over... In a pro wrestling tournament, pro wrestling should ultimately beat MMA. And to their credit, that's pretty much the story they told. Baszler's crucial errors occurred when rope running and on the turnbuckle--classic pro wrestling stuff--and Kairi capitalized. I'd also note this was a unique story/structure, and not just Sane hitting her spots. 

They probably also see more value in Kairi either winning the NXT title, or putting over the person who does, because--developmental territory nor not--NXT is a touring brand that needs experience up top. I also think it's likely Baszler is never going to feature prominently in NXT anyway--she's 37 already (older, actually, than Martinez) and missed at least two fights near the end of her career due to injury--and you can still get just as much heat on the eventual 4 Horsewomen match, because that was always about Rousey anyway. 

*I'd suggest she's better even than that, but I've seen more of her than this tournament. 

[MORELOCK]

6 hours ago, Oyaji said:

As for people criticizing her hype because of her MMA record, MMA fighters laugh at Minoru Suzuki getting dominated in sparring by local kids at gyms when he was in the US and Suzuki's MMA record in legitimate competition is downright awful, but he's seen as a real-life killer. Baszler isn't Minoru Suzuki but I think the situations are not completely unrelated. If you continue to build her as a dangerous woman and she keeps on improving, it'll work. Her strikes need immediate improvement though because they kind of deflate her aura as a bully. 

I didn't criticize the hype because of her MMA record, I criticized it because I haven't seen that there is much substance to it. I don't think she's awful or anything, I just don't see it. This was probably her best match of the tournament, but there are statements like "Really obvious that the wrong girl went over" in this thread and it really makes me scratch my head.

[J.T.]

10 hours ago, Hagan said:

Fantastic match. Shocked as shit they put Sane over and didn't go for the Rousey angle. Shayna looked like a killer though..

I am not shocked. 

Kairi's elbow is over AF so it is not surprising that the bookers rode it to the finish, but Shayna's work was light years better than her first match in the tournament.

[FireThunder]

I've kind of been on the fence on Baszler throughout the tourney.  She has "it" but she also has some very rough edges.  This match won me over on her.

Fantastic match.  The spot at the end with Baszler covering up her face to protect it against the diving corner elbow only to have Kairi plant it in her exposed and injured ribs instead was brilliant.  Just really good stuff all around, I thought.

[Godfrey]

2 hours ago, Beech27 said:

Not to be glib, but isn't that a sign she's really good*, and brought a lot to the matches she was in? A babyface that can stack up clean wins without the opponent looking worse off for losing is both rare and incredibly valuable. That she managed it with opponents who were mostly either very young or very new at this is even more impressive. There really wasn't much buzz that Blanchard and/or Belair ought to be future stars before they wrestled Kairi, and I don't know that anyone else in the tournament was going to do that for them. 

Wasn't this the criticism levied at Kota Ibushi in the CWC? Everyone he faced looked great even in defeat while Ibushi himself never seemed to get to quite the level people expected. At least Sane has time to stick around and adapt a little more. 

[JCM]

Imagine being Kairi and Shayna and meeting your boss for the first time right after the insane 70+ year old man is walking around backstage bleeding from the forehead because he just let a guy 40 years younger than him shoot headbutt him. I bet Kairi was like "and people think Japan is weird".

[supremebve]

9 hours ago, EricR said:

Also, I am shocked to see that nobody has made fun of Stephanie's ghastly disco Tron jumpsuit. 

Dammit, it was the first thing I was going to bring up.  She looked like what we thought the future would look like in 1986.  She looked like the villain from a low budget movie about a low budget videogame.  

I loved the match.  Baszler is still someone I'm skeptical of, but she brought it in this match.  She's good at the grappling, her striking needs work, but I was really impressed by her selling in this match.  Phil posted a match against Io Shirai where she sold her back so I wasn't caught completely off guard, but her selling may be her biggest strength.  If she's going to be successful in her character, the ability to subtly sell is going to be very important.  The key to her selling is that she is willing to fight through the injury, but a well placed strike will stop her in her tracks.  It is perfect for a woman who is playing the killer to be able to show vulnerability without looking weak.

Kairi Sane is incredible.  Other than Sami Zayn, I don't know if there is another person on the roster who can play the traditional babyface as well as her.  Her selling, her fire, her comebacks, and that fucking elbow drop make you want to root for her.  I can forgive her for the lack of long term selling, because everything else is so good.  

[Eivion]

3 hours ago, JCM said:

Imagine being Kairi and Shayna and meeting your boss for the first time right after the insane 70+ year old man is walking around backstage bleeding from the forehead because he just let a guy 40 years younger than him shoot headbutt him. I bet Kairi was like "and people think Japan is weird".

If anything Japan has probably helped normalize this type of shit for her.

[Beech27]

4 hours ago, Godfrey said:

Wasn't this the criticism levied at Kota Ibushi in the CWC? Everyone he faced looked great even in defeat while Ibushi himself never seemed to get to quite the level people expected. At least Sane has time to stick around and adapt a little more. 

It was. I think both Kairi and Ibushi were held to something of an impossible standard, where people (essentially) wanted to see their 30 minute main events, against Io, Meiko, Nakamura, Omega, etc.--only they had ten to fifteen minutes, and opponents who were... not those people. Even still, they both showed really well, because they're remarkably versatile--a quality I think is underrated in both, because their overness is (mis)attributed to simply a result of being attractive, athletic, spotty, and having lucked into tons of natural face charisma. That is, because their appeal is so simple to grasp--those are all obvious, superficial things that it's easy to like--I think people sometimes don't appreciate that they're just... really good all-around, and capable of having a lot of different matches against a lot of different opponents.  

[OSJ]

I can't believe that some of you have become so old and cynical that you're finding (ridiculous) ways to shit all over Kairi Sane. So she couldn't run off a string of ***** matches in a tournament format where half the participants were as green as Muto's mist? So fucking what. She did everything that you could or would expect a babyface to do, including (and most importantly) letting her opponents differentiate themselves and showcase what they could do. This talking point of "Bazler should have gone over" is just silly. Why, pray tell, should the obviously less experienced wrestler have gone over one who is already being touted as being one of the best in the world? Particularly when you want to build Shayna as a heel, what better motivation than she acting on the idea that Kairi stole "her tournament" and coming for revenge, blindsiding Kairi in true heel fashion. What would you rather have, the MMA gal with the ho-hum record beats one of the best wrestlers in the world first time out? Yeah, that makes your product look great.  

[Phil Schneider]

She may be less experienced, but she is clearly better at the basic things in wrestling I care about. Sane has flashier moves, but she is from the Manami Toyota school of get your shit in. Shayna is a better seller, nastier more believable offense, better on the mat, and does something different, then the WWE already has. I am not sure what Sane does that isn't already very well represented in the WWE, she has a cool elbow drop, but 205 Live has pretty consistently shown that cool moves don't mean shit, she is an OK underdog but really doesn't sell well enough to play that role convincingly. 

Having your dominant killer heel lose in her first match, pretty much kills her dominant killer heelness. If for some reason they saw Sane as a huge deal, it makes more sense for her to beat Shayna after climbing a mountain, then have her do it clean on the first try. Also it might have been good for her to blindside Kari after losing, but she didn't do that she stood their sad holding roses so Stephanie and HHH could get a photo op. 

[OSJ]

Phil: I was pretty sure that at some point the Manami Toyota comparison would get brought up, but I was really hoping that it wouldn't be by you. On the surface there are similarities that could lead someone down that primrose path, but bear with me, I think those conclusions would be wrong...  Take a look at any four Manami matches, they will all be fun, but flawed as all will consist of her getting her stuff in no matter what. Who she's wrestling doesn't much matter, you're going to see the same match. Eventually, it becomes tiresome, which is why folk like us always preferred Akira Hokuto. 

Now for contrast, take any four Kairi Sane matches, yeah, she's going to get her stuff in, but lo and behold, her opponents are also able to distinguish themselves and differentiate what they do. The difference is a subtle one, but it is there and it is a very important one. Kairi manages to play babyface (which in and of itself is a handicap) and still let her opponents do their thing.  Does Shayna have more credible mat-based offense? Of course she does, I would expect nothing less from someone with her background. Does Shayna have tremendous presence? Certainly she does. Should she have won the tournament? No, I don't think so,  I think it easier to have the heel get the quick comeback as I suggested in the earlier post if you want to get both of them over. The wrestler won the wrestling tournament, that should surprise no one. Now the heel is fully motivated to cheat and pull out all the stops to get her win back and then you have the chase with Kairi as the lovable baby that likes to play pirate trying to succeed against the ruthless MMA practitioner. In this scenario, both ladies get over, no one looks weak and you get a lot more mileage out of the feud than trying to build Kairi chasing Shayna after a tournament that only a percentage of the WWE viewers saw.

[Beech27]

Tastes will vary, of course, regarding what good pro wrestling is; but I think it's primarily erroneous to assume WWE has any interest in Baszler as a long term monster heel. I think it's more likely she was built up for this tournament to put over the decade younger generational talent, and now she's Rousey's henchwoman, the badass you still manage to beat before the boss finally takes off her coat and gets out of the chair.

Which isn't to say I agree with that path--though I do think that highly of Kairi, for the reasons articulated above--so much as I'm attempting to explain the booking.

Honestly, I hope Baszler is allowed to be more than that, because I don't care to see Rousey in WWE (alas); but I think she has a ways to go. She's super tentative at times, especially with her strikes; I can't help but see her as thinking pro wrestling, rather than intuiting it; and the fact that she had the most experienced wrestlers in the tourney basically sacrificing themselves to make her look good does matter. And if I can nitpick, she had the worst leg slap I've seen in months on that "stand with your feet around their arms, then twist" spot that ZSJ does in every match. Still, she has some really good pieces, and I hope she gets a chance to put them together outside of Rousey's shadow. 

[J.H.]

Kairi was fun through th whole tournament and was a great babyfce. Baszler had no presence/aura to me. Hell, Jazzy and Kavita gave off great presence/aura that even in losing made them sem like stars. Baszler just came off as "She has a tie to Ronda Rousey" aura i.e. her aura is based off ties to someone else that aren't her own.

It was a good match and I enjoyed watching it. What more could I ask for?

James

[Niners Fan in CT]

I guess I gotta go back and watch these Baszler matches again.  I'm not saying she didn't have some interesting offense, especially loved the variety of ways she could apply a sub.  But I also felt she was very sloppy at times and walked around aimlessly also. 

With Baszler I saw someone who has a lot of potential but has a ways to go.  With Kairi Sane I see someone who is ready to be a top babyface. 

[Sky Blue Sam]

Thought the match was a lot of fun, and a good end to what has been a really enjoyable tournament. Both women have matches in my top 5 MotY list (Baszler/Shirai and Kairi/Kyona from the same Stardom show earlier this year), so I knew they could deliver a solid final. That said, I did find Sane's selling of the elbow a bit problematic. It's one thing to stop selling the pain, it's another thing to then use the arm in a lot of her offence - even using the arm to hold her entire bodyweight up on the body scissors. It was especially notable given that it was the second successive match in the tournament that her arm had been worked by an opponent. Still, enjoyed the match, Kairi is a really likable face and Baszler came across as a badass even in defeat.

[OSJ]

2 hours ago, Sky Blue Sam said:

Thought the match was a lot of fun, and a good end to what has been a really enjoyable tournament. Both women have matches in my top 5 MotY list (Baszler/Shirai and Kairi/Kyona from the same Stardom show earlier this year), so I knew they could deliver a solid final. That said, I did find Sane's selling of the elbow a bit problematic. It's one thing to stop selling the pain, it's another thing to then use the arm in a lot of her offence - even using the arm to hold her entire bodyweight up on the body scissors. It was especially notable given that it was the second successive match in the tournament that her arm had been worked by an opponent. Still, enjoyed the match, Kairi is a really likable face and Baszler came across as a badass even in defeat.

As for the elbow selling... There's this weird thing in Japanese wrestling, I'm not sure what to call it, it isn't exactly no-selling, nor is it forget to sell (based on the way the announcers carry on); I guess it's some sort of "Fighting Spirit" thingie, where the wrestler acknowledges the injury and pain, sells it for a time and then starts using the "injured" body part like nothing happened while the announcers go apeshit about it. To tell you the truth, after thirty-some years of watching Japanese stuff I don't even notice it anymore. However, it's done so universally that it has to be a cultural thing that we're just not hip to. I'll ask Yohe about it if I remember, next time we chat.  It's definitely not a NJPW thing or a AJPW thing, I think the first time I really noticed someone doing it was Onita in FMW of all places.

[turk128]

I love how they basically plotted the match out like a Brock match. Yeah, as good a match as those two could have, darn fine match.

Kairi is such a perfect package of red hot face, she really doesn't need any changes. It sucks that Asuka couldn't be around to put her over.

I had low expectations with Baszler but she has played her role and done it well. I never even thought I'd say this before the tourney... but I want her signed. The PC would do wonders for her and it wouldn't be a one way street either, she could help in return.

I have an incredible longing for Kairi to say and precisely enunciate every syllable of this word: multipass.

 

[Michael Sweetser]

In my short run as ECCW play by play commentator, I got to call two of Shayna Baszler's matches against Nicole Matthews (Halloween Hell, with Shayna over via bow and arrow, and Ballroom Brawl, with Nicole went over by flash TKO) and it struck me how far along Baszler was in a very short time.  One of those "if she keeps going at this pace, she's going to be a star" realizations.  

I never expected WWE to give her a chance just due to her general look and gimmick, so it was awesome to see her do so well in the Mae Young Classic.  

Everyone's already echoed how I feel about Kairi Sane - she's incredible.   

[JCM]

18 hours ago, Phil Schneider said:

Having your dominant killer heel lose in her first match, pretty much kills her dominant killer heelness.

Shayna isn't even signed to a deal. She was built up to put over Kairi who is under WWE contract.

[quackhell]

My brain can't process hating on the plucky charming cool pirate princess who can kick ass over the MMA prospect who needs a lot of work. But it's an art and always subject to personal tastes. Give me Kairi eveyday of the week. 

Good match with a well told story that played into strengths and avoided weaknesses. I probably would have preferred two great workers/characters in the finals, but the through line story of both women made this work.

I was very worried about the crowd/venue, but I was happy they won them over in the end.

What is the theme of the next tournament? Super Heavyweights? Oh please, oh please!